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RE: Operation Veritable WIP

 
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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/6/2013 4:50:52 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Harry, any chance you can do smaller battles but over say three days? They are my favourite type of scenarios..I think Pheonix said he is starting to prefer them aswell..less units but over a decent amount of time..


Yep, that´s what I have in mind. At least I´ll try some divisonal or regimental sized battles. Attack on "Veen" town could be one, or some actions of the 8th RTB. There´s a whole lot to choose from...

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Post #: 31
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/6/2013 4:53:44 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Regiment would be cool...over three or foru days..or Divisional but using reinforcements to build it up, say again over 4 days or so. You really see how the game works then more so than seeing a mass of counters all over the map.

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Post #: 32
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/6/2013 5:01:13 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2941
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Here´s btw the main sources I dig from:

"The Victory Campaign - Volume III" (ebook)
Whitakers "Rhineland"
Thompsons "The battle for the Rhineland"
Guderians "History of the 116. Panzer (Greyhound) Divison"
Ritgens "History of the Panzer Lehr Division in the West 1944-45"
Stimpels "The german paratroop forces 1942-45"
A divisonal History of the 51 Highland Division (where do I have it right now )
stuff from the CMHI site and loads more, mostly ebook format.

I also do have some useful maps from the 1940ies era, so that shouldn´t be a major problem either.

We´ll see....

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Post #: 33
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/7/2013 4:15:16 AM   
Michael Dorosh


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Status: offline 		I have a large number of Canadian regimental histories, many with maps of varying degrees of usefullness, that may be of assistance.

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Post #: 34
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/7/2013 9:31:56 AM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

I have a large number of Canadian regimental histories, many with maps of varying degrees of usefullness, that may be of assistance.


Thanks for the offer, Michael! I´m particularly interested in operations of the 3rd CAN ID, 4th CAN Tank and associated corps/army units. My plans include making operations for the battles of Moyland Woods, Goch - Calcar Road, Hochwald layback and Veen.

So far my sources provide me all of the basics necessary, but I´ll let you know, if I need more detailed stuff.

Very much like your canadian soldiers website. Referenced much to it the past years.

Btw, your sig has a dead link!

cheers

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Post #: 35
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/7/2013 9:41:57 AM   
RockinHarry


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Status: offline 		What I´ll likely need, is particular "shape" of canadian units involved, when it comes to game unit data, like experience, training, morale and the like. Also I´m interested in leader data, down to company scale.

So far I know the canucks where pretty tough and professional guys, but also had some manpower problems at that time of war. So how to factor all that into game unit data?

I want stats as close as possible to reality and currently I´m less concerned with "balancing".

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Post #: 36
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/11/2013 3:10:40 PM   
RockinHarry


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From: Germany
Status: offline 		After lots of tweaking, particularly terrain data, objective setting and both sides leader/unit stats I´m now approaching a battle style that fairly well resembles the rather sticky nature of the events that took place during Operation Veritable.

Still some problems to solve, but I´m fairly confident that I get it worked out for the prototype battle soon. If that happened, I´ll finally start on actual mission making.

Btw, I also did a number of map graphics modding, i.e introducing "rubble" terrain for large bombed out cities. They block vehicular movement and provide benefits for defending infantry.

I also reversed the height layer color scheme. It´s now dark color = low lying terrain to lighter colors for higher terrain ones. That´s a personal preference and also coincides with the height map color codeing as shown in the map editor.

< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 1/11/2013 4:14:40 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/11/2013 3:51:36 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Regiment would be cool...over three or foru days..or Divisional but using reinforcements to build it up, say again over 4 days or so. You really see how the game works then more so than seeing a mass of counters all over the map.


Think this is more of a map making issue. Since there´s no off map artillery in the game, maps need to be very wide to provide space for artillery (and base) deployments. I´d ecpect to add 4-8 extra km left/right (or up/down)from the MLR to yield that.

Assuming a regimental size attack sector of between 3 to 5km max, a general deployment area for both sides forces of say...2 km depth, would demand a map size of about 3x15 to 5x20km minimum.

Edit: The BFTB Butgenbach map, would be a good example (it´s 6x16 km, divisional sized). Cut it down to about 3-5 km height and you´ve a regimental sized map, assuming units involved are framed by friendlies outside the map area. That would be the rule of thump, so to say, but off course depends upon particular battle to be simulated. I.e a regimental sized german kampfgruppe in russia, with exploitation mission, could be played on way larger maps. On the western front 1944/45, mostly the US would see deep exploitation type missions, with task force size forces.

< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 1/11/2013 4:05:10 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/11/2013 8:45:42 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		COTA is my standard for smaller amount of units but over a few days scenarios..some great ones based on the Crete Map.

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Post #: 39
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 1:52:55 AM   
RockinHarry


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From: Germany
Status: offline 		Thread can be closed. OP Veritable is abandoned.

Edit: ..stuck in the mud (like the real OP), is a better say ATM.

< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 3/14/2013 8:52:15 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 3:36:32 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Thread can be closed. OP Veritable is abandoned.


I think this is a rushed decision, Harry, and I doubt the thread is going to be closed.

I am positive that pretty much everyone here appreciates your contributions, even when they may disagree with you. Rest assured that your feedback has been useful, the most recent example in my memory were your experiments regarding the effect of fire power convinced Dave to revise the existing code, and made changes to the effect.

Artillery mechanics were revised in build 258, and there's some internal discussion going on about it. I'll making a post soon trying to explain clearly how it works, so people get a hold of the new mechanics and can have their say.

I do honestly expect you to reconsider. But obviously, that's up to you

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Post #: 41
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 5:30:15 AM   
Michael Dorosh


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Status: offline 		Still watching thread with interest.

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Post #: 42
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 8:56:11 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Me too...the only reason I'm annoyed with you is with your reluctance to join the testing team in an official capacity and then you can post all you want with regards to your tests AND the future of the game will be all the better for it. In away your depriving us all.

Your a good mate...don't be too hasty here. Also don't think your tests are important they are..very.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Thread can be closed. OP Veritable is abandoned.


I think this is a rushed decision, Harry, and I doubt the thread is going to be closed.

I am positive that pretty much everyone here appreciates your contributions, even when they may disagree with you. Rest assured that your feedback has been useful, the most recent example in my memory were your experiments regarding the effect of fire power convinced Dave to revise the existing code, and made changes to the effect.

Artillery mechanics were revised in build 258, and there's some internal discussion going on about it. I'll making a post soon trying to explain clearly how it works, so people get a hold of the new mechanics and can have their say.

I do honestly expect you to reconsider. But obviously, that's up to you


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Post #: 43
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 9:34:11 AM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 951
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Was really looking forward to it, Harry. Hope you change your mind. Especially, perhaps, as to a few smaller scenarios. Never let the perfect stand in the way of the good, they (tritely) say. We'll be happy here with a goodish Veritable, or some smaller scenarios taken from it. Honest. OTOH, it's a load of work....can understand you not having time regardless of problems you encounter!

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Post #: 44
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 10:12:56 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16448
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		wodin,

I appreciate you're trying your best here but please don't keep berating Harry about joining the beta team. Harry knows he is appreciated here, certainly by me. Let's just let things sit for a while.

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Post #: 45
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 4:44:11 PM   
navwarcol

 

Posts: 154
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Status: offline 		Actually the comments in the patch post were the first I heard of this project, and from looking at it Harry, it is a great piece of work. Obviously you should do what you feel you must, but I join those above who hope you reconsider. Having myself taken part in a lot of "design" work, I can tell by what I have read above, you have devoted a great deal of yourself into this.

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Post #: 46
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 6:16:44 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Dave..me and Harry get on outside the forum..we are good mates..he knows where I'm coming from;) I will back off though..sorry Harry.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

wodin,

I appreciate you're trying your best here but please don't keep berating Harry about joining the beta team. Harry knows he is appreciated here, certainly by me. Let's just let things sit for a while.



< Message edited by wodin -- 3/14/2013 6:20:12 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 8:50:24 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Dave..me and Harry get on outside the forum..we are good mates..he knows where I'm coming from;) I will back off though..sorry Harry.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

wodin,

I appreciate you're trying your best here but please don't keep berating Harry about joining the beta team. Harry knows he is appreciated here, certainly by me. Let's just let things sit for a while.




I appreciate your support mate! The main point actually is, that currently I can´t do Panther team justice, due to a number of RL issues and organizational matters. That might got solved the next 2-3 months coming I hope.

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Post #: 48
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 9:05:17 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Thread can be closed. OP Veritable is abandoned.


I think this is a rushed decision, Harry, and I doubt the thread is going to be closed.

I am positive that pretty much everyone here appreciates your contributions, even when they may disagree with you. Rest assured that your feedback has been useful, the most recent example in my memory were your experiments regarding the effect of fire power convinced Dave to revise the existing code, and made changes to the effect.

Artillery mechanics were revised in build 258, and there's some internal discussion going on about it. I'll making a post soon trying to explain clearly how it works, so people get a hold of the new mechanics and can have their say.

I do honestly expect you to reconsider. But obviously, that's up to you


Yep, it was rushed and to be honest, it´s all too far progressed to scrap it entirely. Need to rethink about the scope of the whole OP and likely focus on less ambitious parts of it. Will see.

I´m currently stuck in some RL issues and joining any major projects (incl Panther team) is out of question. Might change in couple of months I hope.

Yeah, would be very much interested in Arty related changes in 258. I already noticed a slightly different behavior, as well as effectivness and AI reactions to it. Though I cannot draw conclusions from my observations yet.



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Post #: 49
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 10:08:42 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Thanks mate. You know I love you really anyways...;)
quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Dave..me and Harry get on outside the forum..we are good mates..he knows where I'm coming from;) I will back off though..sorry Harry.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

wodin,

I appreciate you're trying your best here but please don't keep berating Harry about joining the beta team. Harry knows he is appreciated here, certainly by me. Let's just let things sit for a while.




I appreciate your support mate! The main point actually is, that currently I can´t do Panther team justice, due to a number of RL issues and organizational matters. That might got solved the next 2-3 months coming I hope.



< Message edited by wodin -- 3/14/2013 10:09:18 PM >

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Post #: 50
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 11:11:24 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Yep, it was rushed and to be honest, it´s all too far progressed to scrap it entirely. Need to rethink about the scope of the whole OP and likely focus on less ambitious parts of it. Will see.


In my experience, I think the best approach is to go for the big thing first. Then you can re-use all the map work and OOB work to make scenarios which are narrower in scope.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
I´m currently stuck in some RL issues and joining any major projects (incl Panther team) is out of question. Might change in couple of months I hope.


Fair enough, I think everyone here has gone through a similar rough patch once or more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Yeah, would be very much interested in Arty related changes in 258. I already noticed a slightly different behavior, as well as effectivness and AI reactions to it. Though I cannot draw conclusions from my observations yet.


Indeed, one of the things you guys should be seeing is that Arty under the AI is much more responsive that it used to be, provided that one creates the right environment. I'll try to be posting on this topic today or during the weekend, I'm still somewhat flummoxed by the bug that Ramses uncovered.


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Post #: 51
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/14/2013 11:44:56 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16448
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Harry,

FYI Paul and I have already started some design work on implmenting multiuple AI threads. Currently we have just the one. We plan to go to three - one for each side and a master or common AI thread. The benfits we hope to see are an increase in performance which could allow for either faster play of smaller scenarios, bigger map areas and larger force sizes. We have done this sop we can handle the larger scenarios being developed for the Knock On All Doors (KOAD) Ex Pack that Paul VanDoren is working on. These have some huge maps and large numbers of forces (800 units). So if this feature succeeds in improving performanc you may be able to support the larger scenarios you are currently working on. However, I do recommend that you provide some smaller scenarios as well.

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Post #: 52
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/19/2013 6:24:40 AM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Harry,

FYI Paul and I have already started some design work on implmenting multiuple AI threads. Currently we have just the one. We plan to go to three - one for each side and a master or common AI thread. The benfits we hope to see are an increase in performance which could allow for either faster play of smaller scenarios, bigger map areas and larger force sizes. We have done this sop we can handle the larger scenarios being developed for the Knock On All Doors (KOAD) Ex Pack that Paul VanDoren is working on. These have some huge maps and large numbers of forces (800 units). So if this feature succeeds in improving performanc you may be able to support the larger scenarios you are currently working on. However, I do recommend that you provide some smaller scenarios as well.


Yes, thanks, that are my plans anyway. It´s less about force and map sizes in OP Veritable, it´s more about the length of the whole OP (~1 month) and that spent forces (allies) can´t be retracted and replaced during battle and german ones similarly (consolidation and feeding in new units). Also lack of manpower and equipment replacments, makes recreating the OP in entiety actually impossible. But larger parts of the OP. lasting 1-2 weeks should benefit well by the intended changes (more AI threads).

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Post #: 53
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/19/2013 9:32:00 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Harry I think you'll have to break the campaign down into parts..CO isn't able really to do month long campaigns for the very reasons you mention.

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Post #: 54
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 3/19/2013 6:23:27 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Harry I think you'll have to break the campaign down into parts..CO isn't able really to do month long campaigns for the very reasons you mention.


Yep, was my intent right from the start since I´m aware of the 2 week time limit in the game. Could break apart into first period, followed by OP Blockbuster. Other possibilities is to add parts of OP Grenade which is another part of the whole OP, although I initially planned, just to include Brits and Canucks. We´ll see...

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