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Operation Veritable WIP

 
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Operation Veritable WIP - 1/15/2012 9:53:17 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2941
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		...not yet the full operation, but to develop my map and scenario making skills I started small. A 7x7km area of the battlefield, Moyland woods, Louisendorf (butcher hill) to Goch-Calcar road area. Mid february, muddy ground, really bad weather, german 116 Greyhound panzer division and various paratroop units, vs UK and canadian forces.

Map is parts from 40ies original topo map and 90% finished. Yet need to figure the flooded area to the north and work it in.

There´s a whole lot of ESTAB and layer property adapting yet to be done, but I have the basics done.

Now the most time consuming part, ...accurate OOB researching, particularly for germans.

Might need some players here, that help map debugging and play testing anytime soon.






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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/15/2012 10:41:36 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16450
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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: online 		Wonderful looking map. However, a word of caution. You have too many tracks close to each other. Because we use a 100m grid when you place a track own in effect you create a path of clear terrain 100m wide. If you have another track or road or rail within 100m then in effect you end up with a football field - ie this great expanse of clear. Check it out for yourself in the MapMaker. Calc the terrain. Then Show the movement maps. On your map I bet there are great swathes of easy movement. I recommend you cull at least half if not three quarters of them.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/15/2012 11:15:30 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Wonderful looking map. However, a word of caution. You have too many tracks close to each other. Because we use a 100m grid when you place a track own in effect you create a path of clear terrain 100m wide. If you have another track or road or rail within 100m then in effect you end up with a football field - ie this great expanse of clear. Check it out for yourself in the MapMaker. Calc the terrain. Then Show the movement maps. On your map I bet there are great swathes of easy movement. I recommend you cull at least half if not three quarters of them.


Yes, thanks. :) I already considered that by making the tracks real dirt tracks as they were during this battle of mud. They´re not better than clear terrain actually (Mot 10, foot 25). Though I´ve to check other terrain overlapping, but that comes in the debugging phase then.

Btw, do flamers actually work in the game? I´ve seen little to no effect with the Crocs and some selfmade Wasps.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/16/2012 2:42:12 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16450
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: online 		Do you mean special code to handle flame throweing vehicles?

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/17/2012 2:19:57 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Do you mean special code to handle flame throweing vehicles?


I´ve tested with standard ESTAB Crocodiles, as well as some quick made Wasps and if I hear sometimes the "whoosh" sound, thus knowing the flame weapon is actually used, I did not see any effect on the to be attacked infantry units. I´d expect at least some morale drop, suppression and personnel losses, but nothing of it happened yet. Standard situation was a platoon of 4 Crocs vs. an entrenched infantry Coy.

The Crocs are at correct range (<100m) and also receive lots of Panzerfaust fire. They also do obviously prefer using the 75mm gun and MGs before the flame weapon at close combat range.

Is this a known issue, or is it again just something happening with my game install?

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/17/2012 2:40:08 PM   
RockinHarry


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Status: offline 		And yet the unit/weapons data. Everything right with it?






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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/17/2012 11:40:37 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16450
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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: online 		Package up the estab file, scenario file and map file and preferable a saved game taken just before the firing, email it to me ( dave[at]panthergames[dot]com ) and I'll step through it and see if I can work out what is happening.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/18/2012 12:35:25 AM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: offline 		I always get confused with regards to the editor info as there isn't a lethality rating to any weapons.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/18/2012 12:59:51 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16450
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: online 		The accuracy value within the weapon range tables is the closest you will get to a prob of hit. The prob of kill is calculated based on a number of factors which vary according to the target type and attributes. In the case of APer, a hit is as a good as a kill. A kill in our case means a casualty rendering the person ineffective. So it includes wounded as well as KIA. In the case of AFVs use the arm penetration value in the range table and compare this with the armour thickness of the AFV. Now this may change depending on the aspect the AI determins the hit to occur - eg front, side, rear. If the pen exceeds the thickness then you have a knocked out AFV.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/18/2012 1:55:38 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		OK...so looking at the tank above the flame thrower accuracy is 0.899902...which sounds low unless 1 is a hit...if it's out of 100 though then your lucky if one man is killed\wounded..just. It seems a tricky one as a shot from a flame thrower at a coy your likely to only have a few men in range of the weapon...but I expect any in range and in the same direction would be killed or most of them anyway. Thats why I'd have thought accuracy and lethality would have made the calculation easier and help in be able to differentiate between a pistol and a flamethrower or an MG42 and a pistol etc etc, though thinking about it I suppose this is where RoF is important. Anyway wouldn't having a lethality rating give more flexibilty to the weapons and the damage they produce, rather than pretty much be the same if they have the same\similar accuracy. See I imagine every wound isn't bad enough to take you out of combat and far more of a chance to be say just grazed or a minor flesh wound from a pistol than being hit by a flame thrower...Or are these kinds of wound already taken into account when working out the accuracy factor?

When I think about it your method seems right but again it's hard to get your head round I suppose.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/18/2012 4:03:54 AM   
Arjuna


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Status: online 		An accuracy value of 0.89 = 89% hit prob.

If you just assign a blanket hit effects value then this will be based on a set criteria - eg against a certain specific target like a Mk IV. But this will not be true against a Tiger or instance. If you just use modifiers to adjust then you end up with thinkgs like 100 anti tank rifles killing a Tiger when in fact none of them could penetrate. To be realistic you have to go this route.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/18/2012 11:56:27 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		The last thing I want is some sort of blanket hit effect value...just the accuracy in conjunction with a lethality might have given even more flexibility in making every weapon unique...though I can see that really in the end you only need accuracy values as long as they are specifically geared towards an incapacitating wound or death rather than a flesh wound, graze etc.

So say the tank fires it's flamethrower at a coy with 95 men...how does the game determine exactly how many of those ninety five men where in range and in the firing line of the shot? Obviously one shot of the flamethrower isn't going to be able to target the whole coy, say a squad at max might have been in the way so if thats the case then upto 89% of the squad is taken out which sounds right to me...though again how does the game determine which or how many men where in the line of fire?

Oh sorry for taking the thread off topic..big apologies.

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/18/2012 11:59:05 AM >

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/18/2012 3:40:40 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Package up the estab file, scenario file and map file and preferable a saved game taken just before the firing, email it to me ( dave[at]panthergames[dot]com ) and I'll step through it and see if I can work out what is happening.


Requested files sent.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/19/2012 12:46:05 AM   
Arjuna


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Status: online 		Got'em thanks.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/21/2012 10:14:24 AM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2941
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Map progress

Now that I figured the flooded area at the given time (from 3 sources), I´ve now to rework the upper map part and finish the remaining areas. I´m experimenting with a "field" terrain type, a derivate of "Heide" that is meant to be muddy farmfields, which cover the majority of the operations area in february 1945. It´s slightly worse movement as clear terrain, but offers a slightly better (than clear) cover mod. I´ve yet to see how the AI handles this rather high complexity layer structure and I might simplify things again, if I stumble into major problems. The bridges/crossing points are experimental and are likely to be removed again. These represent historical crossing points of the given time area, but play wise wouldn´t have any impact.






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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/21/2012 12:09:52 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


Posts: 2114
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Status: offline 		Missed this thread Harry. I'm adding it to the Index

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/21/2012 12:26:01 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2941
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The big picture, taken from "The Victory Campaign - Volume III" E-Book

Edit: link for those interested:

The Victory Campaign V III E-Book






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< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 1/21/2012 12:30:09 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/21/2012 2:38:16 PM   
Huib


Posts: 494
Joined: 11/21/2006
Status: offline 		If you need info about this battle, I know ridiculously much about it, especially about the German FJ divisions there.
I have made Veritable for JTCS game (not released the scn yet), so I have a full OOB info if you need it.
Have WW2 era topo maps of it as well.

edit: see that you're from Germany. I also have some good German books on the subject. Heinz Bosch, Ulrich Dinkelaker, Guderian to name a few.
Feel free to contact me about it.


Huib

< Message edited by Huib -- 1/21/2012 2:51:15 PM >

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/21/2012 5:27:11 PM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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Status: offline 		Why isn't Germany covered by Google Street View?

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/21/2012 6:01:01 PM   
Lieste

 

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Not everyone thinks it is the best idea since sliced bread:
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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/21/2012 9:55:53 PM   
phoenix

 

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Status: offline 		Huib - sorry to stray off the thread topic a little - but have you any plans to adapt Woensdrecht for the new patches? I think it's a really fantastic scenario, one of the best I've played, for all the reasons I've mentioned before.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/22/2012 9:47:17 AM   
Huib


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Huib - sorry to stray off the thread topic a little - but have you any plans to adapt Woensdrecht for the new patches? I think it's a really fantastic scenario, one of the best I've played, for all the reasons I've mentioned before.


I should do that. I have to dive into that though. I've been working mostly for the JTCS games last year.

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Post #: 22
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/22/2012 1:04:53 PM   
RangerX3X


Posts: 182
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Status: offline 		Great project - mega kudos.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/26/2012 2:51:25 PM   
RockinHarry


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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Huib

If you need info about this battle, I know ridiculously much about it, especially about the German FJ divisions there.
I have made Veritable for JTCS game (not released the scn yet), so I have a full OOB info if you need it.
Have WW2 era topo maps of it as well.

edit: see that you're from Germany. I also have some good German books on the subject. Heinz Bosch, Ulrich Dinkelaker, Guderian to name a few.
Feel free to contact me about it.


Huib


Thanks Huib! You´ll hear from me soon. My latest book just arrived, which is Heinz Gunther Guderians, Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen (history of the 116. Pz. Division). It has a wealth of detailed info re german units participating, but there are 2-3 odd german parachute units I can´t find the details I need. Would be:

Fallschirm Armee Waffen Schule (a reinforced Btl. type unit of likely mixed weapons), attached to 116. Pz

Korps Fallschirm Aufklarungs Btl. 12 (a Btl size para reccon unit of II. Fallschirm Korps), attached to 116. Pz

And...Hubners Fallschirm Armee Sturm Btl, likely a special assault unit at army level.

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RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/26/2012 6:22:19 PM   
Huib


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry



Thanks Huib! You´ll hear from me soon. My latest book just arrived, which is Heinz Gunther Guderians, Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen (history of the 116. Pz. Division). It has a wealth of detailed info re german units participating, but there are 2-3 odd german parachute units I can´t find the details I need. Would be:

Fallschirm Armee Waffen Schule (a reinforced Btl. type unit of likely mixed weapons), attached to 116. Pz

Korps Fallschirm Aufklarungs Btl. 12 (a Btl size para reccon unit of II. Fallschirm Korps), attached to 116. Pz

And...Hubners Fallschirm Armee Sturm Btl, likely a special assault unit at army level.


That's cool. Personally I'm very interested in this battle, but also in Blockbuster and the battles on the other side of the Rhein (Varsity & Plunder) and the later battles all the way to the end. Guderian is very useful.
I even have an original small document from Hubner (Cmdr FJR 24, not the Hubner of the Sturm Bn) himself that he wrote in the sixties, together with a map with his drawings on it.
Send me a pm with your email and I'll look what I can have on these units (I should have some as I stumbled on the same questions you are facing). From most units I also know where they were at a given time (not from my head ofcourse). The FJRs were shifted around the front quite a bit.

Huib

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Post #: 25
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/26/2012 6:43:51 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2941
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Huib

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry



Thanks Huib! You´ll hear from me soon. My latest book just arrived, which is Heinz Gunther Guderians, Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen (history of the 116. Pz. Division). It has a wealth of detailed info re german units participating, but there are 2-3 odd german parachute units I can´t find the details I need. Would be:

Fallschirm Armee Waffen Schule (a reinforced Btl. type unit of likely mixed weapons), attached to 116. Pz

Korps Fallschirm Aufklarungs Btl. 12 (a Btl size para reccon unit of II. Fallschirm Korps), attached to 116. Pz

And...Hubners Fallschirm Armee Sturm Btl, likely a special assault unit at army level.


That's cool. Personally I'm very interested in this battle, but also in Blockbuster and the battles on the other side of the Rhein (Varsity & Plunder) and the later battles all the way to the end. Guderian is very useful.
I even have an original small document from Hubner (Cmdr FJR 24, not the Hubner of the Sturm Bn) himself that he wrote in the sixties, together with a map with his drawings on it.
Send me a pm with your email and I'll look what I can have on these units (I should have some as I stumbled on the same questions you are facing). From most units I also know where they were at a given time (not from my head ofcourse). The FJRs were shifted around the front quite a bit.

Huib



Going to send you PM!

Blockbuster, as part of Veritable is on my to do list already. I´ll finish this mini OP of the Moyland battle area and then expand to the full map overtime. I´ll likely leave out the flooded area, which can´t be played in BftB, but otherwise I need the northern part for the german Arty setup, or parts of it.

OP Veritable is surely not the best background for the BftB game engine, thus although interesting, Plunder/Varsity will lead to some more difficulties, unless just the Varsity stage of the battle is started with. BftB definitely needs some naval mode added to it, to allow some amphibious warfare.

Other interesting OPs could be Black Cock, Overloon and the Peel Marsh counter attack. We´ll see. If you like to cooperate on some of the stuff, let me know.

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Post #: 26
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 2/4/2012 2:03:18 PM   
RockinHarry


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From: Germany
Status: offline 		quick update: I´m in the mids of OOB and particular involved units research and have about 70% of force lists completed so far. Next comes enlarging the initial map to ~12x10km, as I found the 7x7km map way to small to get a resonable artillery setup and supply net working.

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Post #: 27
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 2/6/2012 4:41:23 AM   
JeffK


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From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: online 		Good to see this continuing, IMVHO there are a lot of actions fought by the British 2nd Army which have been lost behind the Bulge & Market Garden.

It would be good to see some more.

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Post #: 28
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/6/2013 4:10:46 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2941
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		FYI: Got back working on it after a looong pause. Since covering the whole operation is impossible, I´ll focus on 1-3 day engagements, corps size max. For those particulary interested in OP Veritable, I´m open for suggestions.

So far, the map only covers parts of the left flank Brit actions (between Cleve city and Goch-Calcar road) in mid february, but either I´ll expand, or make new maps covering other parts as well.

< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 1/6/2013 4:11:32 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Operation Veritable WIP - 1/6/2013 4:20:59 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Harry, any chance you can do smaller battles but over say three days? They are my favourite type of scenarios..I think Pheonix said he is starting to prefer them aswell..less units but over a decent amount of time..

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