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Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard

 
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Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 8:19:24 AM   
Tarhunnas


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As I am just conducting a mountain war in the Capathians, I have started thinking about mountains and winter. In WITE, snow and blizzard have the effect of more or less negating rivers, but there is no effect of making mountain warfare more difficult in winter. There is no problem moving a mechanized unit one hex in mountains, even during blizzard, while one would realistically wonder if it was even possible to move large mechanized formations through such terrain even in high summer. Sure, supply is very awkward, but it is entirely possible to infiltrate a tank army through several hexes of mountain. And I have yet to see a unit surrender because of mountain supply restrictions.

I think movement and attacks into mountain hexes in snow or blizzard should be severely restricted, perhaps only mountain units should be able to move into mountains during winter weather. And as for mechanized units I think they should not be able to enter mountains at all except along railroads.

There are plenty of historical examples of fighting in the Carpathians during WW1, when most operations simply ground to a halt in the winter in the mountains, with some notable logistic and freezing disasters where one side or other tried to advance.

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 8:43:08 AM   
Wuffer

 

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You are absolutely right IMHO, for example Attatürk lost a corps (!) by attrition in WW1 during the winter.

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 2:31:08 PM   
cavalry

 

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+1 Do you not think stacking should be restricted in Mountains as well. And mech units would be almost useless in this kind of terrain.



< Message edited by cavalry -- 1/15/2012 2:32:27 PM >

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 3:10:32 PM   
jwduquette1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think movement and attacks into mountain hexes in snow or blizzard should be severely restricted, perhaps only mountain units should be able to move into mountains during winter weather. And as for mechanized units I think they should not be able to enter mountains at all except along railroads.


I disagree that motorized units shouldn’t be allowed to move through Mountain Hexes during winter (in-game blizzard) conditions. I also disagree that only Mountain Units should be able to move in Mountain hexes during blizzard turns. Review the operations of the 8th Army and X Corps Operations in the Rangrim and Taebaek Mountain Ranges (North Korea) during the winter of 1950-1951.

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 3:26:52 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

+1 Do you not think stacking should be restricted in Mountains as well. And mech units would be almost useless in this kind of terrain.



Yes, I think that might be a good idea!

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 7:42:08 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwduquette1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think movement and attacks into mountain hexes in snow or blizzard should be severely restricted, perhaps only mountain units should be able to move into mountains during winter weather. And as for mechanized units I think they should not be able to enter mountains at all except along railroads.


I disagree that motorized units shouldn’t be allowed to move through Mountain Hexes during winter (in-game blizzard) conditions. I also disagree that only Mountain Units should be able to move in Mountain hexes during blizzard turns. Review the operations of the 8th Army and X Corps Operations in the Rangrim and Taebaek Mountain Ranges (North Korea) during the winter of 1950-1951.


If you mean the Chosin battle, I must admit that I am not very knowledgeable about the Korean war, but AFAIK the X Corps was retreating out of the mountains, not moving into them. They were also supported by a massive airlift. The attacking Chinese were non-mechanised and lost twice as many casualties to weather as from combat, although they did manage to attack, I grant that. I would say it rather confirms that combat in mountains is extremely ardous in winter.

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 8:38:32 PM   
Pelton


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Sure 1200 tanks should beable to just drive over the Mts in snow or blizzard.

Fits right in with the morale time line.

Pelton

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/15/2012 10:50:33 PM   
Farfarer61

 

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Make the hexes Impassable to enter, 100% MP to move out of to a non-mountain hex, and zero supply if you are stuck. The impassable to passable code already exists for so this should be simple. If there is a mountain road then Mech units get a 90% CV reduction on the attack, The "300" rule :)

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/16/2012 1:20:53 AM   
randallw

 

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I've pushed armor into the mountains and they needed quite a few MPs to move into one of the hexes.

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/16/2012 4:38:22 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I've pushed armor into the mountains and they needed quite a few MPs to move into one of the hexes.


Yep, it takes all MPS for non-mountain units, but you can still advance one hex at a time. It just doesn't seem realistic to me that you can push three Mech Corps into a mountain hex in winter.

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/17/2012 8:04:36 PM   
Joel Billings


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I've played the upcoming Drama on the Danube scenario (August 44-May 45 southern front) twice via PBEM (once on each side) and can say that mountains are a huge obstacle in the game. Mountain units have it much easier, and in fact the few mountain units that are in the scenario are worth a lot. If you are up against any kind of opposition it is very had to go anywhere unless moving/attacking over the rail passes (and even this is very tough). If it weren't for the fact that the Axis player is so stretched in that scenario it would be a nightmare for the Soviets to get over the mountains. We actually had to make a few changes to the supply rules when we started testing this scenario back in Sept/October 2011 in order to allow anything to happen in the mountains at all. I'm not convinced any changes are needed.

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RE: Fighting in mountains in snow/blizzard - 1/18/2012 9:46:52 AM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I've played the upcoming Drama on the Danube scenario (August 44-May 45 southern front) twice via PBEM (once on each side) and can say that mountains are a huge obstacle in the game. Mountain units have it much easier, and in fact the few mountain units that are in the scenario are worth a lot. If you are up against any kind of opposition it is very had to go anywhere unless moving/attacking over the rail passes (and even this is very tough). If it weren't for the fact that the Axis player is so stretched in that scenario it would be a nightmare for the Soviets to get over the mountains. We actually had to make a few changes to the supply rules when we started testing this scenario back in Sept/October 2011 in order to allow anything to happen in the mountains at all. I'm not convinced any changes are needed.


AFAIK the Soviets didn't actually get over the mountains but were restricted to the few passages through them. Also, they got through the Southern Karpatians passes fairly easily because they were mostly being held by Romanian troops.

Mountains don't equal Mountains, but I don't know of any who have a winterproof crossing (or even any crossing for that matter) every 10 miles, let alone winterproof crossings that can support multiple corps. Once snow hits they are closed for good. Even Mountain units who can fight limited actions in that enviroment certainly can't be supplied extensively.

Defacto Mountains should be IMO closed in winter, except maybe along raillines, and even here attackers should be facing a big CV reduction, especially Mechanized units.

If one really wants to make all year crossings, one can make the half dozen feasible passes into hill terrain.




< Message edited by MechFO -- 1/18/2012 10:26:01 AM >

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