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Beta and Dutch air units

 
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Beta and Dutch air units - 1/10/2012 8:27:21 AM   
Chris H

 

Posts: 2855
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
Status: offline 		Sometime ago the game allowed the Dutch air units back into the fray. I now have a considerable number of well trained pilots with either no planes or absolete ones and the Dutch do not produce planes after 1941 so they cannot be replaced. Is there any way to utilise them effectively using British planes, transfer the pilots to British command etc. I reality this would have been done and was in England when the RAF had many different nationality flying under them.

There are also some phillipino units in the same boat.

< Message edited by Chris H -- 1/11/2012 8:47:11 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/10/2012 9:14:04 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 7117
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Historically, it would not just be with British planes. Remember where Pappy Gunn swiped his B 25's from.

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/10/2012 9:19:23 AM   
Iron Duke


Posts: 516
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		There are i think 3 squadrons that use dutch pilots after the fall of the SRA . No 321 RAF , 119/120 RAAF and 18 RAAF .(they have there nationality set to Dutch in the editor/database

The 'modern' a/c ie hurri's,DB7,P40E.PBY's and B25 the dutch get all stop production on or before 4/42

I don't think there is a way to fill returned Dutch air units in stock , you would need to 'MOD' the game to upgrade the dutch a/c to later allies-Brit/US a/c




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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/10/2012 11:13:49 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 579
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline 		In real life in the Pacific theatre it was:

No. 18 (NEI) Squadron, RAAF: B-25 Mitchell - formed Canberra, 4 April 1942
No. 321 (Dutch) Squadron, RAF: PBY Catalina - re-activated Trincomalee, 15 August 1942
No 119 (NEI) Squadron, RAAF: B-25 Mitchell - formed Canberra, 1 September 1943
No. 120 (NEI) Squadron, RAAF: P-40 Kittyhawk - formed Canberra, 10 December 1943

(in reply to Iron Duke)
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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/10/2012 5:34:26 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6184
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		You will eventually run short of Dutch pilots if you are actively using those three Dutch RAAF squadrons as there are no Dutch replacement pilots. I disbanded all of these units with obsolete planes. That dumped enough Dutch pilots into the reserve pool to get me through the war.

That is about the best use I could figure out. You are not short of Allied squadrons by this point so I would not worry about those few Dutch units.

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/10/2012 9:26:56 PM   
JeffK


Posts: 4657
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		I am scratching around looking at the DEI Sqns mentioned, the RAF/RAAF Sqns in Malaya and the USAAF Prov Sqns.
They withdraw or run out of aircraft based on historical timelines, but smart players can keep Malaya or Sumatra going a lot longer than IRL.

So you pay PP to keep them or lose a valuable (and by that time experienced) group of aircraft.

For the RAF/RAAF, why should they withdraw at all, a random date was picked supposedly well after the campaign was over. Is there any affect of keeping these units on the board, shouldnt increase any pool numbers and the low numbers of RAF replacements might see some Sqns voluntarily didbanded anyway.
The DEI are a bit different, at what point would US aid stop, fall of Sumatra, fall of Java??  As we can see players can hold Sumatra well beyond the IRL date. Maybe a trickle of modern aircraft to keep them going IFF you can keep hold of an important part of the DEI. (I would agree to a HR that any DEI aircraft that escape the DEI disband to the pools to create the earlier mentioned RAF & RAAF units)
The Provisional USAAF are my next search, do they rename to another Sqn or just revert to the pools?

Thoughts motivated by the arrival of v1 & 3 (2 is lost in the mail !!) of Bloody Shambles.

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/10/2012 9:55:21 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6184
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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I am scratching around looking at the DEI Sqns mentioned, the RAF/RAAF Sqns in Malaya and the USAAF Prov Sqns.
They withdraw or run out of aircraft based on historical timelines, but smart players can keep Malaya or Sumatra going a lot longer than IRL.

So you pay PP to keep them or lose a valuable (and by that time experienced) group of aircraft.

For the RAF/RAAF, why should they withdraw at all, a random date was picked supposedly well after the campaign was over. Is there any affect of keeping these units on the board, shouldnt increase any pool numbers and the low numbers of RAF replacements might see some Sqns voluntarily didbanded anyway.
The DEI are a bit different, at what point would US aid stop, fall of Sumatra, fall of Java??  As we can see players can hold Sumatra well beyond the IRL date. Maybe a trickle of modern aircraft to keep them going IFF you can keep hold of an important part of the DEI. (I would agree to a HR that any DEI aircraft that escape the DEI disband to the pools to create the earlier mentioned RAF & RAAF units)
The Provisional USAAF are my next search, do they rename to another Sqn or just revert to the pools?

Thoughts motivated by the arrival of v1 & 3 (2 is lost in the mail !!) of Bloody Shambles.


Jeff,

Yes, the Dutch are extremely limited. The one fighter squadron really has no serious aircraft upgrade until the Australian p51 comes on line in late 45. The one Dutch medium bomber squadron can use the remaining dutch bombers saved from the DEI and is then limited to the Australian mitchell of which there are very little to share. And one Dutch catalina squadron of 6 aircraft that will have plenty. Very strange to me. And there is one Dutch transport squadron that is unable to use anything but the lodestars saved from the DEI of which there are not many.

I wish it was changed a bit. The only real way to make use of the Dutch is to not use any of the lend lease P40s and medium bombers in the early campaign and save them for later. Hard choice, but a good Japanese players will eat them up in the DEI anyways so it is worth it. Bottom line is don't really plan on the Dutch winning the war for you.

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/11/2012 9:02:29 AM   
Chris H

 

Posts: 2855
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
Status: offline 		Guys.

Most of you are missing the main points.


  • I'm not talking about the four Dutch units that do remain in the game, only those that return through changes to the Beta.
  • The Beta allows Dutch air units to be returned. There is no point in that as you do not have and cannot replace obsolete aircraft.
  • If they did come back in real life then they would have had replacement aircraft or they would be transferred to other units (not necessarily Dutch) particlarly if the pilots were experience, and most are.
  • I'm late through this game so I do not know the delay for their return but if they go mid 1942 and they return mid 1943 they would be needed and used.




< Message edited by Chris H -- 1/11/2012 9:03:14 AM >

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 8
RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/11/2012 6:56:27 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 7117
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Guys.

Most of you are missing the main points.


  • I'm not talking about the four Dutch units that do remain in the game, only those that return through changes to the Beta.
  • The Beta allows Dutch air units to be returned. There is no point in that as you do not have and cannot replace obsolete aircraft.
  • If they did come back in real life then they would have had replacement aircraft or they would be transferred to other units (not necessarily Dutch) particlarly if the pilots were experience, and most are.
  • I'm late through this game so I do not know the delay for their return but if they go mid 1942 and they return mid 1943 they would be needed and used.






Uhhhh...I am with Chris on this one...When the Dutch Marines escaped, they were sent to U.S. Marine schools and re-activated with American uniforms..Why not allow them to take American planes, so long as they are "in game"?

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/11/2012 8:32:34 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6184
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Guys.

Most of you are missing the main points.


  • I'm not talking about the four Dutch units that do remain in the game, only those that return through changes to the Beta.
  • The Beta allows Dutch air units to be returned. There is no point in that as you do not have and cannot replace obsolete aircraft.
  • If they did come back in real life then they would have had replacement aircraft or they would be transferred to other units (not necessarily Dutch) particlarly if the pilots were experience, and most are.
  • I'm late through this game so I do not know the delay for their return but if they go mid 1942 and they return mid 1943 they would be needed and used.






Yes, but I am not sure that the return of these units was intended or is historically accurate. That is, I think there was a mistake in the DB and they simply should not arrive. That said, disband them and utilize the pilots.



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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/12/2012 7:41:59 AM   
castor troy


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Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Historically, it would not just be with British planes. Remember where Pappy Gunn swiped his B 25's from.



and this can be done in AE as there USAAF bomber squadrons that can upgrade to the "Dutch" B-25.

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/12/2012 10:06:37 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8196
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: online 		You have the ability to re-form the groups, but you aren't required to.

In the case of the Dutch units, you need to decide if it is worth it to rebuild.

As I am trying to get the patch made official, and this is not a bug, it will need to wait till later before anything can be done.

But in the meantime, discussion is good.


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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/12/2012 10:41:46 AM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

You have the ability to re-form the groups, but you aren't required to.

In the case of the Dutch units, you need to decide if it is worth it to rebuild.

As I am trying to get the patch made official, and this is not a bug, it will need to wait till later before anything can be done.

But in the meantime, discussion is good.



I appreciate all that and I'm looking forward to it all becoming offical and your improvements and effort have improved the game considerably but this change seems pointless.

Most Dutch units are incapabable of taking any effective part in the war when they do come back without giving them access to aircraft. Your ground option seems to work well, spending pps for any return. Could the air units be returned in a similar manor but in so doing giving the player the option to change aircraft?

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/12/2012 11:20:10 AM   
kfsgo

 

Posts: 445
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Most Dutch units are incapabable of taking any effective part in the war when they do come back without giving them access to aircraft. Your ground option seems to work well, spending pps for any return. Could the air units be returned in a similar manor but in so doing giving the player the option to change aircraft?


A solution might be to apply the same system as used with Indian squadrons now - they can access Brit aircraft for a PP cost per type accessed. Not sure whether you'd want to use US or (probably more sensible) Australian pools, though.

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/12/2012 11:24:46 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8196
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: online 		As I say, the idea can be bounced around.

One out-of-the-box solution could be to allow changing of a/c thru the player upgrade screen to another type at a cost of PPs. Similar to the interchange between Commonwealth nations.
I think that this would still need some thought, though, as don't the supply of Dutch pilots tend to dwindle out.

Another consideration is that it is harder to reform groups for the Dutch now with the latest beta than it was when group reforming was first introduced.

Programming wise, almost any thing could be (and has been ) done.


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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/12/2012 11:50:35 AM   
kfsgo

 

Posts: 445
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

As I say, the idea can be bounced around.

One out-of-the-box solution could be to allow changing of a/c thru the player upgrade screen to another type at a cost of PPs. Similar to the interchange between Commonwealth nations.


Well, I know I personally would get a lot of mileage out of it...not that that's a reason to do anything, heh. I assume it'd be a feature that'd get some use, though.


quote:



I think that this would still need some thought, though, as don't the supply of Dutch pilots tend to dwindle out.



They don't get any 'general' replacements, of course, but they do get a fair few 'named' pilots - 18 RAAF and 119 RAAF both get 50 specific pilots over the course of the game, though mostly not until 1943/1944. So, not many, but a few.

As a datapoint, I currently (in July 1942 and after an NEI campaign that was pretty gentle on the Dutch AF, really) have 183 unemployed Dutch pilots - all of them at least reasonably and many of them very experienced. It'd be nice to have some way of getting them into service - I have no idea how many historically made it out of the NEI alive, though, or what proportion of those stuck around, or moved to RAF/RAAF/etc Sqns, or went off to run banana plantations in Surinam etc. Probably less than that, given that Java would have been 'home' for a lot of them, but still.

quote:



Another consideration is that it is harder to reform groups for the Dutch now with the latest beta than it was when group reforming was first introduced.

Programming wise, almost any thing could be (and has been ) done.



Well, harder's probably good (assuming it can be done at all) - after all, these guys have just had their home base yanked out from under them and there's a war on, so it should be tricky to do. If the aircraft are available, though...

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/12/2012 7:40:54 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6184
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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

As I say, the idea can be bounced around.

One out-of-the-box solution could be to allow changing of a/c thru the player upgrade screen to another type at a cost of PPs. Similar to the interchange between Commonwealth nations.
I think that this would still need some thought, though, as don't the supply of Dutch pilots tend to dwindle out.

Another consideration is that it is harder to reform groups for the Dutch now with the latest beta than it was when group reforming was first introduced.

Programming wise, almost any thing could be (and has been ) done.



Yes, a good idea but I would not bother unless you can make the Dutch pilot pool get reinforcements. This probably makes sense as the game is designed to go well past the end of hostilities in Europe, and the Dutch would have been reforming their air and land forces. Not to just fight Japan but out of the necessity for forces to help reclaim and police their colonies.

On another note, the supply of New Zealand aircraft pretty much comes to an end in 1945. Is there a historical reason for this? I would assume the NZ would have seen it out to the end like the rest of the Allies and still be allotted some sort of supply of American or British planes. Of course, with the end of the fight in Europe, we would probably see some Canadian units and planes flow to the East as well.

I think there is a good chance my scen 2 campaign will go into 1946 and I lay awake at night thinking about these things...


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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/13/2012 8:56:27 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 7117
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Regarding Dutch pilots and their availability...Several units of them did fight in Brit planes through the war, as did French,Czech,Poles,Belgium, etc.

The game ceases to be historic on turn one, so I doubt having planes for them should ruffle any feathers?

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/15/2012 7:49:40 AM   
Chris H

 

Posts: 2855
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Regarding Dutch pilots and their availability...Several units of them did fight in Brit planes through the war, as did French,Czech,Poles,Belgium, etc.

The game ceases to be historic on turn one, so I doubt having planes for them should ruffle any feathers?


Correct on both accounts. Foreign pilots were mostly volunteers fighting under British colours, they were not part of their countries armed forces. This is represented in game by the four Dutch air units mentioned above which are flying as a RAF and RAAF sqn. Late in the war after their country was liberated and they again had an recognised government many pilots transferred (along with their planes). I would like to think that the Dutch air units returning in game would fall under this category.

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RE: Bata and Dutch air units - 1/16/2012 2:56:58 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 7117
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I mean.....gee whiz fellers......we were able to make room for Quentin McHale!

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