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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis)

 
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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:30:50 AM   
smokindave34


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Volkhov/NW front's:

One dissapointment of this turn is that Zonso pulled back his AGN forces in front of two of my strongest armies (60th and 1st shock). These armies have 4 cavalry corps between them so I should be able to catch up to AGN next turn......




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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:34:05 AM   
smokindave34


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Moscow:

I'm able to push forward in all areas around Moscow. The Kalinin front's 34th army and NW front's 8th army advance NW towards Kalinin while the 43 army of Moscow M.D. pushes due west and makes contact with 19th panzer division. If it is still there next turn I plan to throw all available assets at Zonso's panzers. Anything I can do to weaken his panzers and lower their morale will pay dividends when summer '42 rolls around.




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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:39:10 AM   
smokindave34


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Western/Bryansk front's:

The 54th (Western front) and 55th armies (Bryansk front) push towards Tula.




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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:40:25 AM   
smokindave34


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Bryansk Front:

The 61st and 32 armies find easy going to the east of Kursk. I should be able to make good progress in this area. I'm hoping that the pace of my cavalry corps will allow me to swallow up some of his rifle divisions here if he doesn't run west next turn.




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< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 4/12/2012 1:41:50 AM >

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:44:40 AM   
smokindave34


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SW front:

The 18th and 21 armies make excellent progress east of Kharkov and I send a reserve army (52nd) to this area to exploit the gap I opened in his lines. I'm not sure if Zonso kept armor units in reserve in this area but he'll need help here to plug his lines.....




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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:47:31 AM   
smokindave34


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Southern Front:

Zonso has kept elements of 1st panzer group in Stalino and they joined in two battles as reserves and gave me a nasty surprise. South of Stalino the 16th army (with 2 cavalry corps) make good progress and I rail in the 44th army to assault the axis minor allies on the Kalmius river. The 44th is one of my strongest units and should be able to dislodge the axis from the river line next turn.




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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:48:43 AM   
smokindave34


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Here is the OOB data through turn 25......




< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 4/12/2012 1:52:16 AM >

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:51:28 AM   
smokindave34


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OOB data through turn 25.....




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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:51:54 AM   
smokindave34


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And the losses data.....




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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 2:45:19 AM   
Q-Ball


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Looks good.....in the big clear terrain center where it looks like you are off to a good start, try to get units in ZOC lock (surrounded on 4 sides). This prevents them from retreating backward more than 1 hex if they don't get good MP rolls, creating a real problem where the flanks are retreating faster than that unit can...and eventually it will get overrun. ZOC locks are king in blizzard!

Otherwise, looks like you are doing what I do. Nothing fancy, just punch the nearest German unit in the nose.

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/12/2012 1:10:24 PM   
smokindave34


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Looks good.....in the big clear terrain center where it looks like you are off to a good start, try to get units in ZOC lock (surrounded on 4 sides). This prevents them from retreating backward more than 1 hex if they don't get good MP rolls, creating a real problem where the flanks are retreating faster than that unit can...and eventually it will get overrun. ZOC locks are king in blizzard!

Otherwise, looks like you are doing what I do. Nothing fancy, just punch the nearest German unit in the nose.




Thanks - I'll use my cavalry to put the ZOC stranglehold on him......

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/16/2012 2:29:31 PM   
76mm


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Dear Smokindave,

I'm enjoying your AAR; I've just started a GC against Zonso (Turn 3), so will be watching your game closely.


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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 4/16/2012 5:00:10 PM   
smokindave34


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Dear Smokindave,

I'm enjoying your AAR; I've just started a GC against Zonso (Turn 3), so will be watching your game closely.





Thanks 76mm! Good luck against Zonso - he is a reliable and solid opponent.

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 5/11/2012 5:24:40 PM   
Zonso

 

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Due to work committments Dave has withdrawn and resigned from our game in Jan '42, so I thought I would make a couple comments in closing. First off, the other side makes for some interesting reading, especially some of the advice given. Dave played a very strong game and did not make any mistakes at all imo. In fact it was me making all the mistakes throughout and I learned quite a few things moving forward. Dave is a very methodical player and used terrain and sacrificial units to great effect. My only criticism is he may have been more aggressive, especially in the blizzard, when seeking attacking opportunities.

My initial plan was to strike in several areas to try and keep the Russian side off balance. That style did not pan out very well against Dave's carpet and checkerboard defense, and his use of key terrain and strongpoints to delay. He also was very adept at sneaking in units to isolate spearheads when I wasn't careful on the flanks. Many times it was me continually off balance and trying to catch up. His timing was great also in retreating just before lines began to establish and before I was able to gather sufficient forces to create a pocket. That coupled with his use of river lines and 'instant' (it seemed) Level 2 forts really never allowed me to take off. I used HQBU 4 times and only once, the Tula pocket, was I able to take advantage of it.

I had never tried the Lvov opening before until this game and due to my inability to keep that pocket and following pockets properly sealed, I lost valuable time and could not keep any momentum going in the South. I also dithered too long with Panzer Group 4 after I saw I no longer needed them in taking Leningrad. I should have regrouped and used them sooner for an attempt on Moscow. In hindsight I should have kept the Panzer Groups more concentrated and focused.

Part of my difficulty was supply. I began to deal with Partisans on Turn 2 I believe and my supply lines were cut at least 4 times, maybe 5, during the summer campaign, leaving the advancing forces high and dry. I even resorted to bringing a FDB back to try and connect some of the adjoining rail. I had dedicated fighter groups on night missions most of '41 and they did not record a single kill as far as I saw. They definitely didn't prevent any partisan supply drops!

Reserves also played a huge role in the fall of '41 for the Russian and in the Blizzard for the German. The initial Russian reserves were quite shocking as many, many units from several hexes would respond repeatedly. I had to resort to excessive attacking troops in order to prevent from responding. I think this is an area that needs looking at because it seemed very excessive. On the other hand, I had setup several divisions and regiments in Reserve for the Blizzard and made sure the Leaders up to ArmyGroup had high initiative, yet they only committed a handful of times when there were multiple opportunities for more. In fact, i had setup my whole Stalino defense based on a combination of Panzer Corps and Mountain Division backstopping in reserve. However, they rarely helped and that whole line collapsed quickly, much to my surprise.

All in all, a good challenge and a good learning game.

< Message edited by Zonso -- 5/11/2012 5:26:48 PM >

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 5/11/2012 6:38:20 PM   
Flaviusx


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Zonso, there's a lot of variation in reserve reaction results.

I myself can arrange things in 1941 to get lots of them as the Soviet. Dave appears to have figured it out as well, but many other players report getting hardly any reserves showing up at all. Don't know what's up with that.

As for the Axis, talk to Bob. I've noodled around with them in 1943 recently and with minimal changes to command structure, was practically able to guarantee reserve commitments. (And by minimal, I mean sacking Zeitzler in favor of Guderian in OKH.) You have to get your high initiative rating leaders in the right places for both sides. As simple as it sounds, just putting one good guy in the top command makes a big difference, but of course you want as many good initiative leaders going down the whole command chain (impossible to do for the Sovs, much more doable for the Germans.)

If you left Halder in OKH, that might explain your problems. He needs to go come blizzard and replaced with a first class guy. This is the single most important change that can be done on either side. (Some Soviet players insist on keeping Shaposhnikov in STAVKA, and this is just as big a mistake. Zhukov is the go to guy now.)

The Soviet can get around his poor leadership problem to some extent by playing the law of numbers. That is to say, use the large number of units he has to positively swamp selected areas with reserve commitment possibilities -- that means carpets (NOT stacking, unless you can do both, and you probably can't in 41.) You can't do this everywhere in 1941, to be sure. It may even be the case that with enough units and mediocre leaders this may be more effective than a relative handful of units backed up by top notch leaders (the German situation.)

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 5/11/2012 6:48:50 PM >


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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 5/11/2012 7:09:49 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I've noodled around with them in 1943 recently and with minimal changes to command structure, was practically able to guarantee reserve commitments. (And by minimal, I mean sacking Zeitzler in favor of Guderian in OKH.) You have to get your high initiative rating leaders in the right places for both sides. As simple as it sounds, just putting one good guy in the top command makes a big difference, but of course you want as many good initiative leaders going down the whole command chain (impossible to do for the Sovs, much more doable for the Germans.)

If you left Halder in OKH, that might explain your problems. He needs to go come blizzard and replaced with a first class guy. This is the single most important change that can be done on either side. (Some Soviet players insist on keeping Shaposhnikov in STAVKA, and this is just as big a mistake. Zhukov is the go to guy now.)


But, is that 'right'?. How does the High Command affect the rapid reactionary deplyoment of tactical reserves? I should think that in real life this is something that was influenced by Army/Front commanders at the most. Army Group or High Command didn't deal with day-to-day deployments like that.

I agree with the recent changes to make OKH/STAVKA limitless command capacity, but I worried about it making a single leader far too influencial in that way. Why not keep guys like von Manstein and Zhukov in those positions the whole war? There must've been a reason why Zhukov didn't hold on to STAVKA the whole war.

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 5/11/2012 7:18:35 PM   
Flaviusx


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It may not be right. But that is the way it seems to work, the high command exercises a disproportionate amount of influence on reserve commitment rolls.

Zhukov was sacked for political reasons. He recommended abandoning Kiev as early as late July and had anticipated even then the Axis movement by Guderian to flank SW front from the north. Stalin wasn't having any of that. He also sacked Budenny later onfrom the SW theater for the same reason. (He was warned by Kirponos and eventually Shaposhnikov. And indeed, by a number of other folks, the SW Front chief of staff, etc.) The enormous Kiev pocket was 100% the result of Stalin's disastrous meddling in 1941, and nothing else. It could have been avoided otherwise.

As for the Axis, people repeatedly pressed Hitler to put Manstein in OKH. But Hitler stuck to a succession of mediocrities for much of the war (the Halder-Zietzler era takes us all the way to the 1944.) Guderian eventually found his way there, but found Hitler impossible to work with and was himself sacked in 1945.

I'm not sure how to account for these sorts of vagaries in dictators in game terms.

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 5/11/2012 9:27:16 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I'm not sure how to account for these sorts of vagaries in dictators in game terms.


Perhaps leader political ratings should carry much more of an influence on if and how long a leader can be used in a high command?

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RE: 41-45GC Smokindave (Sov) vs. Zonso (Axis) - 5/12/2012 7:08:04 PM   
Zonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It may not be right. But that is the way it seems to work, the high command exercises a disproportionate amount of influence on reserve commitment rolls.




I am with Schmart on that being extremely counter-intuitive. It would clearly make more sense at the lower command levels. However, I will keep that in mind for the future.

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Post #: 169
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