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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels?

 
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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/6/2012 1:07:48 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Indeed.

But the Panzer 35t ands 38t were probably almost as good as the Matilda, Somua and R-35s ... and Panzer IIIs and IVs were coming online by 1939, and they were as good as the Matildas and French tanks, especially when upgunned ... though the T-34's were superior in concept.

Of course, you do know that the early model T-34's fielded in 1940 had guns whose barrels were bored, shall we say, somewhat askew on an unreliably reliable basis, and had considerable accuracy problems initially.

And, of course, you also know that the T-34 typically went into combat with a spare gearbox strapped to the back deck ... because the average MTBF for the gearbox was around 10 hours of driving time, so crudely made were the running parts of the engine and transmission.

In fact, Brand New T-34's are know to have had a MTBF of no more than 35 hours, all up, before something major took them down. They were, very much, throwaway vehicles ... it's fortunate the Russians were able to produce as many of them as they did because something like 80% were destroyed in combat or as a result of combat throughout the war.

Phil


Which is the point I am making, it's not just the paper specifications of each vehicle, it's the overall performance and effectiveness of each nation's armoured units, which counts. In June 1941 most Soviet armoured units had little effective recon assets. It would not have mattered how good, or bad their tanks were, they often didn't know where the Germans were, before they blundered into them.

When the fronts became static the Germans lost some of this advantage, as the opposing positions were at least known.


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 1/6/2012 2:56:39 PM >


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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/6/2012 8:01:47 PM   
Romdanzer

 

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Ah yes the technology question!

Well when reading through this post you do get the general picture! why where the Germans so successfull in 1939/1940 with such "mediocre" technology in their tanks/planes/ships...???? it was because of the way they used them! i.e. the operational doctrine and also military tradition is what made the huge difference.

So the REAL way it should be organized in a game on this scale is to separate TECHNOLOGY from DOCTRINE with ideally also military tradition of the country being accounted for as well. Then you can make much more realistic feeling values. Like for example having Russion TANK technology being 2 or even 3 to begin with (higher than the German Tank technology) but the usage Doctrine and the military tradition for using tanks being absolute minimum horrible values. Similar with the western Allies....with the same being said for Navy and Air correspondingly.

If you look at the HOI series for example there you see what is really needed in this respect - translated to ToF - separate Technology, Operational Doctrine and Military Tradition values for EACH military branch. THEN you could implement all the indeed correct comments mentioned here.

Currently the ToW, SoP, ToF games unfortunately only have "one" doctrine type - the Land Doctrine value. With also in a smaller more indirect way the const. values being a albeit poor representation of country military tradition. This is what the real problem is! So what I understand the current situation to be is that the starting technology values represent a compromise solution as adjustments for game play reasons (i.e. Hybrid values) since this ideal solution isn't/can't be implemented.

In the best of all worlds it whould be possible to do research / development in operational doctrine, combined with some form of influence of the "war-experience" of the armies & generals and military tradition of the country for each military branch of the current "technologies" ....similar to like in HOI

Romdanzer



< Message edited by Romdanzer -- 1/6/2012 8:18:04 PM >

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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/6/2012 9:17:06 PM   
dlazov66


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quote:

But the Panzer 35t ands 38t were probably almost as good as the Matilda, Somua and R-35s ... and Panzer IIIs and IVs were coming online by 1939, and they were as good as the Matildas and French tanks, especially when upgunned ... though the T-34's were superior in concept.


Not quite.

This is from an old S&T # 27 back in 71-73 or some such.



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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/6/2012 11:40:36 PM   
aspqrz

 

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Yes. You have an excellent point. Perhaps there should be separate Naval, Air and Land Doctrine values ... if the Game Engine can support it.

I would further suggest that the Air Doctrine should be divided into Fighter and Bomber Doctrines, the Naval into Surface and Submarine and the Land into Infantry and Armour ... and that, unlike the way the data files suggest it works, you be allowed to research these areas and speed up their arrival. Or perhaps it could be related to experience increase thresholds?

(As it is, if I read the data files correctly, Land Doctrine increases occur at hard coded times)

Phil

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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/6/2012 11:54:45 PM   
Romdanzer

 

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aspqrz yes that would be great if it could be done - unfortunately I don't think it can. I assume that if it could have been done WI would have done that with this game engine a long time ago - after all ToF is not the first in this series with this game engine. see ToW and SoP.

So I think that we will have to live with these starting tech values being stand-in, compromise, game-balancing values...

Romdanzer

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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/7/2012 1:28:07 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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So many great posts, I cannot keep up. I will have to return. I will say though, The 38(t) doesn't touch the S-35/Char ~tank to tank~, the Germans knew it. Look at at S-35 and you know what I mean..(she is just a thing of beauty) Of course French Training and Tactics? That is under Battlefield Doctrine. : ) personally, I would doubt they'll reprogram the game, but they may script events in for bonuses to certain fighting units?




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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/7/2012 8:09:20 AM   
aspqrz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Romdanzer

aspqrz yes that would be great if it could be done - unfortunately I don't think it can. I assume that if it could have been done WI would have done that with this game engine a long time ago - after all ToF is not the first in this series with this game engine. see ToW and SoP.

So I think that we will have to live with these starting tech values being stand-in, compromise, game-balancing values...

Romdanzer


Yes, I have the previous two versions as well, so I suspect you are right



Pity, though.

Phil

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RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/7/2012 8:11:34 AM   
aspqrz

 

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There are short term Strength boosts as part of some Tech upgrades, that would work, but it would probably have to be longer ... as it is, IIRC, they're on the order of 5-10 weeks, when it would have to be something more like *months* ... depending on the Tech area advanced in.

Phil

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Post #: 38
RE: Unjustifiable Tech Levels? - 1/7/2012 10:57:32 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar
So many great posts, I cannot keep up. I will have to return. I will say though, The 38(t) doesn't touch the S-35/Char ~tank to tank~, the Germans knew it. Look at at S-35 and you know what I mean..(she is just a thing of beauty) Of course French Training and Tactics? That is under Battlefield Doctrine. : ) personally, I would doubt they'll reprogram the game, but they may script events in for bonuses to certain fighting units?


Tank for tank the Char B/S-35 would be better in stand up fight, but one shot through the Char B side radiator, or the commander busy operating the turret gun alone, or no fuel because the refuelling tanker is a flaming wreck on the supply route, or the 38(t) is miles away, because you have out of date orders, or ...............


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