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RE: OT: Red Tails

 
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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/5/2012 12:58:48 PM   
castor troy


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even a former girl friend of mine noticed that something like the movie that shall not be named would not be realistic (without me bitching about it). Same goes for most action or war movies, I think it doesn't take much knowledge how stupid all those scenes really are. I think film producers are utter silly because it would not be that hard to make all films (even sci fi) a little bit more realistic.

Just an example, yesterday there was Armageddon shown again on Austrian TV, I zapped through for a short moment, remembering when I saw the film the first time it really has struck me when they said the damned asteroid was moving at 37.000 km/h and now guess when Bruce and company was landing on it to drill a hole into it? Right after it passes the MOON!!!!!

Now let's see, the asteroid is moving at 37.000 km/h, the distance from the moon to Earth is roughly 400.000 km. Leaves 10 hours to see the asteroid passing the moon and detonating on Earth. Quite a short time frame to land on it, drill a whole, fit a lovestory, a drunk Russian spacecowboy, some more action and blow it up with a nuclear weapon to save the Earth. One out of a hundred examples you can make more realistic, even in a sci fi film, while not leaving out any of the action or the love BS. Goes for all films, but I guess as soon as you would end up being realistically, people would be shocked how war, killing people or natural disasters really are.

The only 10 min I remember being in the cinema watching a war movie when people actually got really silent were the first 10 min of Saving Privat Ryan. The rest of the film was as much Oktoberfest as in every other movie.

I can't see a reason why George Lucas, Spielberg, or any other producer/director wouldn't be able to make films at least a little more realistic.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 1/5/2012 12:59:59 PM >


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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/5/2012 1:19:44 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:


The only 10 min I remember being in the cinema watching a war movie when people actually got really silent were the first 10 min of Saving Privat Ryan. The rest of the film was as much Oktoberfest as in every other movie.


Actually there are a few, they are just seldom typical Hollywood stuff.
German movies like "Stalingrad", or "Der Untergang" come to mind. I was stunned for some time
after leaving the cinema.

It seems being defeated paints a much clearer picture of how the war really was like. Thats why German
WWII movies are often much deeper than US movies, while US war movies with quality are
usually set in Vietnam area, and not WWII.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/5/2012 1:28:14 PM   
LoBaron


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulq0dg-Yx0o
Stalingrad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZcN66SUO84
Der Untergang



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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/5/2012 5:08:51 PM   
mikkey


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yes, Stalingrad is excellent movie

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/5/2012 5:57:45 PM   
gradenko_2000

 

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I've been playing B-17 Queen of the Skies obsessively since I discovered it about 3 months ago and I would much rather have a movie that was about bomber streams than fighters. We might see kill counts that match the claims made by the bombers during the war, but at least the aerial maneuvers would probably be more grounded in reality.

It would even be really Hollywood to build a story around the crew - you've got your stoic captain, the co-pilot that wants to prove himself, the know-it-all engineer, the wisecracking ball gunner, the two brothers manning the waist guns, and of course one of them dies tragically in the arms of the other, the radioman that just wants to go home, and of course the old navigator that's on his final flight before he ends his tour and goes back to his wife and 2 kids (also dies tragically).

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/5/2012 7:58:43 PM   
SargeantTex


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Very few Hollywood movies made within the past 30 yrs have gotten it right Saving Private Ryan probably brought out the brutality of war It showed what really happens in war when a artillery round lands next to you you dont fall down and slowly die. more than likely it will blow you to pieces or blow limbs off of you.
I really liked letters from Iwo too few movies from a japanese perspective make it to America have seen some truly excellent movies from japan.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/6/2012 9:33:50 PM   
Ddog

 

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Has anyone seen the movie poster? It had 3 Me 262's falling from the skies with P-51's in hot pursuit. The 262's are riddled with bullets and flaming from every orifice....even the nose......which is where they apparently stored the fuel?? ;)

http://www.traileraddict.com/poster/red-tails/2

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/6/2012 10:12:20 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

It would even be really Hollywood to build a story around the crew - you've got your stoic captain, the co-pilot that wants to prove himself, the know-it-all engineer, the wisecracking ball gunner, the two brothers manning the waist guns, and of course one of them dies tragically in the arms of the other, the radioman that just wants to go home, and of course the old navigator that's on his final flight before he ends his tour and goes back to his wife and 2 kids (also dies tragically).


Yeah. And then they could name the movie after a famous bomber, like the Memphis Belle. Hmmm....




< Message edited by mdiehl -- 1/6/2012 10:13:10 PM >


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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/6/2012 10:14:32 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Has anyone seen the movie poster? It had 3 Me 262's falling from the skies with P-51's in hot pursuit. The 262's are riddled with bullets and flaming from every orifice....


It's a good look for a 262.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/6/2012 10:47:33 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ddog

Has anyone seen the movie poster? It had 3 Me 262's falling from the skies with P-51's in hot pursuit. The 262's are riddled with bullets and flaming from every orifice....even the nose......which is where they apparently stored the fuel?? ;)

http://www.traileraddict.com/poster/red-tails/2

He he...

Apparently, the only place they didn't store fuel was in the right engine nacelle. That appears unburnt.

Did you notice how the Tuskeegee airmen are walking on the tarmac of an airbase in the poster? Apparently, it's a German aerodrome (Nazi flag flying in the background) with various prop German planes burning whilest groundcrew scamper about.

So, my questions are:

1. Is the drawing to scale? That would make Cuba Gooding Jr. about 125-150 feet tall.
2. Did the Tuskeegee airmen fly for the Germans and they're walking down the tarmac towards their planes? Cause it looks like their boots are on the same ground that the German planes are on.
3. Did the Tuskeegee airmen perform some sort of 'ground op' and sabotage the German airfield prior to calmly walking off towards the camera? Cause that would be cool.

Think I'll catch this one on Netflix streaming in a few months.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/7/2012 2:16:40 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ddog

Has anyone seen the movie poster? It had 3 Me 262's falling from the skies with P-51's in hot pursuit. The 262's are riddled with bullets and flaming from every orifice....even the nose......which is where they apparently stored the fuel?? ;)

http://www.traileraddict.com/poster/red-tails/2



just out of interest, have they ever shot down a Me-262 in real life?

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/7/2012 3:00:48 PM   
freeboy

 

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It seemed like a remake of another movie.. anyone know which one?

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/7/2012 3:02:40 PM   
Treetop64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ddog

Has anyone seen the movie poster? It had 3 Me 262's falling from the skies with P-51's in hot pursuit. The 262's are riddled with bullets and flaming from every orifice....even the nose......which is where they apparently stored the fuel?? ;)

http://www.traileraddict.com/poster/red-tails/2



just out of interest, have they ever shot down a Me-262 in real life?



Chuck Yeager shot down a 262 in his P-51. Of course, the fact that it was in the pattern left it vulnerable. Incidentally, that is how most Me-262s were shot down.

< Message edited by Treetop64 -- 1/7/2012 3:03:00 PM >


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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/7/2012 11:23:35 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

just out of interest, have they ever shot down a Me-262 in real life?


IIRC the Red tails shot down two of them.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/7/2012 11:26:21 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Incidentally, that is how most Me-262s were shot down.


I would like to see a source to support that claim. As far as I have read, no one had made the claim that they were mostly shot down when landing or taking off.

On the whole they were poor aircraft. They had poor acceleration, poor engine reliability, poor maneuvering characteristics, and a very short air time.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/8/2012 1:31:37 AM   
Treetop64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Incidentally, that is how most Me-262s were shot down.


I would like to see a source to support that claim. As far as I have read, no one had made the claim that they were mostly shot down when landing or taking off.

On the whole they were poor aircraft. They had poor acceleration, poor engine reliability, poor maneuvering characteristics, and a very short air time.


That's a bit of an over-generalization based on some negative aspects of the 262. On the whole, they were excellent aircraft, and Germany's only real problem with the Me-262 was that they entered service too late to have any significant effect on the war, and Germany simply could not build enough of them.

From the "Counter Jet Tactics" section of the Me-262 article in Wikipedia:


"Despite its high wing loading and lack of low-speed thrust, pilots soon learned that the Me 262 was quite maneuverable, especially if attention was drawn to its effective maneuvering speeds. The controls were light and effective right up to the maximum permissible speed and perfectly harmonized. The addition of full span leading edge slats, in three unconnected sections on each wing,[44] helped increase the overall lift produced by the wing by as much as 25 to 35% in tight turns or at low speeds, greatly improving the aircraft's turn performance as well as its landing and take off characteristics.[45] (The slats lowered the stalling speed of the aircraft to a respectable 160 to 170 km/h (86 to 92 kn; 99 to 110 mph) depending on load out. They deployed automatically below 300 km/h (160 kn; 190 mph) on takeoff or landing, where the innermost (between fuselage and nacelle) was normally deployed, and at 450 km/h (240 kn; 280 mph) in turn or climb.)[46] And as many pilots soon found out, the Me 262's clean design also meant that it, like all jets, held its speed in tight turns much better than conventional propeller driven fighters, which was a great potential advantage in a dogfight as it meant better energy retention in maneuvers.[47] Luftwaffe test pilot and flight instructor Hans Fey stated, "The 262 will turn much better at high than at slow speeds, and due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional type aircraft."[48]

Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. [Notes 3] As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. Combating the Allied fighters could be effectively done the same way as the U.S. fighters fought the more nimble, but slower, Japanese fighters in the Pacific.

Allied pilots soon found the only reliable way of dealing with the jets, as with the even faster Me 163 Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground and during takeoff or landing. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land. The Luftwaffe countered by installing extensive flak alleys of anti-aircraft guns along the approach lines in order to protect the Me 262s from the ground, and providing top cover during the jets' takeoff and landing with the most advanced Luftwaffe single-engined fighters, the Focke-Wulf Fw 190D and (just becoming available in 1945) Focke-Wulf Ta 152H. Nevertheless, in March–April 1945, Allied fighter patrol patterns over Me 262 airfields resulted in numerous losses of jets and serious attrition of the forc
e."

< Message edited by Treetop64 -- 1/8/2012 1:33:52 AM >


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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/8/2012 8:46:11 AM   
LoBaron


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Even the famed JG 26 was assigned to cover jet fighter bases late war, and JV 44 had its own "Platzschutzstaffel" (airbase protection squadron),
composed of 190Ds variants. Its pretty obvious why this was thought necesary.

Although I guess the majority of 262s was destroyed on the ground, because thats where fuel limitations and the Allied fighters kept them
most of the time.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 1/8/2012 9:37:33 AM >


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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/8/2012 4:19:53 PM   
BrucePowers


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Also the ME262 did not get into production until later because the Jumo 004 had a lot of teething problems. It also had a lousy service life compared to the Meteor's Power Jet/Rolls Royce engine. If they had had to I think the Meteor would have been put up against the 262. However, it was not necessary.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/8/2012 4:22:34 PM   
BrucePowers


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Back to the original topic, I for one, will go see the movie. I will ignore the physically impossible aerodynamic maneuvers and try to enjoy the story.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/9/2012 2:58:09 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Incidentally, that is how most Me-262s were shot down.


I would like to see a source to support that claim. As far as I have read, no one had made the claim that they were mostly shot down when landing or taking off.

On the whole they were poor aircraft. They had poor acceleration, poor engine reliability, poor maneuvering characteristics, and a very short air time.


That's a bit of an over-generalization based on some negative aspects of the 262. On the whole, they were excellent aircraft, and Germany's only real problem with the Me-262 was that they entered service too late to have any significant effect on the war, and Germany simply could not build enough of them.

From the "Counter Jet Tactics" section of the Me-262 article in Wikipedia:


"Despite its high wing loading and lack of low-speed thrust, pilots soon learned that the Me 262 was quite maneuverable, especially if attention was drawn to its effective maneuvering speeds. The controls were light and effective right up to the maximum permissible speed and perfectly harmonized. The addition of full span leading edge slats, in three unconnected sections on each wing,[44] helped increase the overall lift produced by the wing by as much as 25 to 35% in tight turns or at low speeds, greatly improving the aircraft's turn performance as well as its landing and take off characteristics.[45] (The slats lowered the stalling speed of the aircraft to a respectable 160 to 170 km/h (86 to 92 kn; 99 to 110 mph) depending on load out. They deployed automatically below 300 km/h (160 kn; 190 mph) on takeoff or landing, where the innermost (between fuselage and nacelle) was normally deployed, and at 450 km/h (240 kn; 280 mph) in turn or climb.)[46] And as many pilots soon found out, the Me 262's clean design also meant that it, like all jets, held its speed in tight turns much better than conventional propeller driven fighters, which was a great potential advantage in a dogfight as it meant better energy retention in maneuvers.[47] Luftwaffe test pilot and flight instructor Hans Fey stated, "The 262 will turn much better at high than at slow speeds, and due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional type aircraft."[48]

Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. [Notes 3] As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. Combating the Allied fighters could be effectively done the same way as the U.S. fighters fought the more nimble, but slower, Japanese fighters in the Pacific.

Allied pilots soon found the only reliable way of dealing with the jets, as with the even faster Me 163 Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground and during takeoff or landing. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land. The Luftwaffe countered by installing extensive flak alleys of anti-aircraft guns along the approach lines in order to protect the Me 262s from the ground, and providing top cover during the jets' takeoff and landing with the most advanced Luftwaffe single-engined fighters, the Focke-Wulf Fw 190D and (just becoming available in 1945) Focke-Wulf Ta 152H. Nevertheless, in March–April 1945, Allied fighter patrol patterns over Me 262 airfields resulted in numerous losses of jets and serious attrition of the forc
e."



Any reply, mdiehl?... mdiehl? ....mdiehl? ....Beuler? ....Beuler?

Chez

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/9/2012 8:51:05 AM   
Commander Cody


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It's too bad with all those flying warbirds out there that they can't actually use them in Hollywood like they used to. Let's face it--no war movie of the future is ever going to be as good as "Battle of Britain," "Tora, Tora, Tora" or other classics which used the real deal (or reasonable AT-6 facsimiles thereof).

And the story: Hollywood cannot take a perfectly good war story without embellishing it and making it worse. It's impossible for them to keep their mitts off the story line.

Cheers,
CC


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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/9/2012 9:22:40 AM   
LoBaron


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Yep, its a common tendency to drop historical accuracy for entertainment value.

Sadly, it is always a first step to rewrite history.

My favourite example always has been a beautiful woman named Helena, which was all the reason needed
to besiege the largest trade center of the known world for a decade, that finally succumbed to a
devious wooden horse, but in the end led to the foundation of another huge empire by two brothers addicted to
wolves milk...

Homer, George Lucas of ancient times.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/9/2012 4:35:05 PM   
mdiehl

 

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My reply is that the ME 262 was a poor fighter but a great experimental craft. It was not very effective at shooting down enemy a.c. of any kind, and many *were* intercepted in high altitude combat. Many were also destroyed on the ground or in patterns because the 262 had a lousy flight envelope that involved 26 minutes of vulnerability out of the 30 minutes you could keep it in the air before the gas tank ran dry. And the engines stunk. They were hangar dogs. It's easy to blow up a jet that has 40 hours of maintenance for every five hours of airtime because it lives most of its short, pointless life on the ground.

If the ME262 had ever encountered a P-80, the latter would have eaten it's lunch nine times out of ten.

The Germans should have left the ME-262 for the airplane museum and built more 190s and TA-152s.

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/9/2012 4:38:18 PM   
Misconduct


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We fight, we Fight, we Fight! I seen the trailer, although its not a chick flick, its certainly not historically accurate (hollywood of course).

I will certainly see it once it comes out on dvd, hopefully its nothing like "The movie which is not to be named"

/I see a nuclear carrier i'm going apehsiat

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/9/2012 7:33:23 PM   
Ddog

 

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John Ford was quoted as saying "Never let the facts stand in the way of a good movie."

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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/11/2012 5:37:00 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

My reply is that the ME 262 was a poor fighter but a great experimental craft. It was not very effective at shooting down enemy a.c. of any kind, and many *were* intercepted in high altitude combat. Many were also destroyed on the ground or in patterns because the 262 had a lousy flight envelope that involved 26 minutes of vulnerability out of the 30 minutes you could keep it in the air before the gas tank ran dry. And the engines stunk. They were hangar dogs. It's easy to blow up a jet that has 40 hours of maintenance for every five hours of airtime because it lives most of its short, pointless life on the ground.

If the ME262 had ever encountered a P-80, the latter would have eaten it's lunch nine times out of ten.

The Germans should have left the ME-262 for the airplane museum and built more 190s and TA-152s.



I would say that the Me-262 was only a serviceable fighter but it was a very good interceptor especially once pilots learned to judge closure rates well and use its speed to advantage. As to your contention that the P-80 would have eaten it for lunch, we will never know as no P-80s ever saw combat in WWII. And given the P-80's propensity for engine fires for which it was grounded on several occasions, I would assume that the P-80's engines were just as unreliable as the Swallow's.

I would be interested in reading your sources that state the Me-262 could fly for only 30 minutes of a full tank of gas. This may be correct if you assume the aircraft is using only avgas but the Me-262 could actually use one of three different types of fuel. These are, in order of preference: brown coal oil, diesel oil and avgas. Brown coal oil could provide up to 90 minutes flight time at high altitude and 45-50 minutes flight time at low altitude.

The Me-262 also had very good flight characteristics at all speeds and altitudes when engine RPM was kept above 7000. Special care had to be taken to avoid sudden RPM changes lest the compressors stall.

There are several good documents available that were written by allied test pilots and German pilots listing the strengths and weaknesses of the Me-262. Nearly all state that the main drawback with the Me-262 was the decree by Hitler to develop it as a bomber. Had it been developed and tested as an interceptor, it may have been ready in numbers by the summer of 44. Their would have been excellent potential for it to make its presence felt against allied bombers fleets.

Chez

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VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
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ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/11/2012 6:09:34 AM   
LoBaron


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The main problem with the 262 was, at the time of developement and production Germany
was already dreadfully low on heat resistant and durable metal alloys neccesary for
high temperature components used in jet engines. The Germans used several workarounds which neccesarily
led to degraded engine performance, low reliability, short service life and high maintenance
frequency.

It´s design and low thrust engines left it with a small performance envelope, but when flown
within these parameters it was quite a maneuverable fighter and very difficult to intercept.
At altitude combat most of the time Allied fighters had to rely on short high deflection bursts
to attack, as stern attacks were practically impossible because of the 262´s speed.

mdiehl is estimating an airplanes performance based on its service record in a completely adverse
enviroment (late war German airspace) without using this enviroment as reference. A classic mistake
which will always lead to incorrect results. Not for the first time I might add...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 1/11/2012 6:53:47 AM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/11/2012 7:12:52 AM   
Califvol


Posts: 134
Joined: 11/8/2002
From: The Land of Yore
Status: offline
Freeboy said- "It seemed like a remake of another movie.. anyone know which one?"

That would be Tuskegee Airmen also with Cuba Gooding!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tuskegee_Airmen



< Message edited by Califvol -- 1/11/2012 7:13:59 AM >

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/11/2012 9:36:23 AM   
jeffs


Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline
Some interviews with the real guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF10wMytCCg
The Red Tails were on one episode of Dogfights...
The real guys are worth listening to. And they talk about how the 262s were shot down.

The Cuba Gooding version was quite decent.

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to Califvol)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/11/2012 6:32:40 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

I would say that the Me-262 was only a serviceable fighter but it was a very good interceptor especially once pilots learned to judge closure rates well and use its speed to advantage. As to your contention that the P-80 would have eaten it for lunch, we will never know as no P-80s ever saw combat in WWII. And given the P-80's propensity for engine fires for which it was grounded on several occasions, I would assume that the P-80's engines were just as unreliable as the Swallow's.


The P-80s engine was initially fire prone but the kinks were worked out by the time of deployment, and the plane did not have the compression problems under sudden acceleration that the 262's jumos had. The 80 was faster, had greater range, accelerated faster, rolled and turned faster, and had a higher service altitude. Not all that surprising because the 262's twin-outboard engine design was poor. If the Germans could have put them centerline it may have been a very good fighter. Its service record, however, was poor. It was a fine X-craft. It was a poor service plane.


_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to jeffs)
Post #: 60
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