Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Toidi
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Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

The displayed CV is way too far from the adjusted CV values.
I was waiting with this post until end of blizzard (so no false doubling of cv is given to the soviets, mountain etc).

German attack, Soviets defend, *no forts* unless written.

Those are all attack results from a single turn (turn 38) are (modified cv ---> final cv):

Initial ---> Final

161:113 ---> 201:13 (fort 1->0)
152:156 ---> 299:48 (fort 1->0)
193:262 ---> 474:34
169:129 ---> 303:16 (fort 1->0)
140:163 ---> 281:76
13:13 ---> 19:0 (odds 95:1)
19:13 ---> 39:10
20:11 ---> 13:6
40:39 ---> 62:50 (single hold)
35:35 ---> 76:35 (replay, now it does not hold anymore)
47:51 ---> 85:28
120:124 ---> 248:103
31:24 ---> 70:14
31:12 ---> 65:10
29:1 ---> 22:1
28:5 ---> 66:3
26:1 ---> 51:0
200:143 ---> 340:106
16:9 ---> 19:2
27:8 ---> 31:10
81:10 ---> 88:6
37:17 ---> 78:26
18:31 !!! ---> 47:10
17:28 ---> 23:7
23:3 ---> 92:5
73:46 ---> 132:65
63:4 ---> 120:4
34:1 ---> 101:1
39:8 ---> 40:16
21:10 ---> 55:10
14:18 ---> 49:3
25:44 ---> 111:4
36:7 ---> 61:3
22:10 ---> 64:5
95:63 ---> 200:90
34:17 ---> 63:16
53:29 ---> 106:34

As such, almost always real German CV is roughly double the displayed one. Also, Soviet CV is roughly half.

Note, that most of the battles (apart of the first 5 which were in the north with not that great leaders, but solid ones) were pretty much with the best Soviet leaders available (Tolbukhin, Malinowsky, Rokossovsky etc), so, I guess at least better than average leaders.

It is hugely frustrating to have defense set based on the displayed CV, finding out that the whole displayed thing is just rubbish. I thought that it is due to supply levels, ammo etc. But not this time, I really took care.

As such, I can understand that Germans are *that* strong (of course I will not try to defend in such case). But let me know - otherwise it just makes the game totally unpleasant to play. I understand *some* variation - but sort of centered around the value that is given on the counter. However, the value displayed is clearly wrong - the displayed German one should be multiplied by 2, the Soviet one maybe divided by two. Otherwise, the discrepancy is just too large and make the game pretty pointless to play.

Also, please account for leadership in the displayed CV value, so the units under better leadership has larger CV. I would like to see the variation much less and centered around the displayed value - as it is now, it is hugely misleading - and for me, pretty game breaking.
Farfarer61
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Farfarer61 »

amen. give me some useful info for all my patrolling represented as "atttrition losses".
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Apollo11
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

Please refer to WitE manual - in it the CV is explained! [;)]

Thus, the on counter CVs you see are different than CVs calculated in battle!


BTW it is not possible to include various dice rolls in on counter CVs - it is quite obvious that CVs would fluctuate constantly and then the CVs would server no purpose at all...
7.1. Combat Value (CV)

All ground units have a combat value (CV) that is used to determine the results of a battle. The unit CV is equal to the sum of the individual CV’s for each ground element in the combat or support unit. The CV is representative of the ability to take or hold territory, often referred to as "boots on the ground." Thus the CV ratings of ground elements are weighted toward infantry and AFV ground elements, while artillery and other guns, though they have good firepower, tend to have low CV’s (26.1.4). Unlike fixed combat factors that are found in other games, the CV in Gary Grigsby’s War in the East is a calculated value that can only provide players an idea of the combat ability of the unit. Displayed Unit CV’s are determined by a complex formula that takes into account the different ground elements making up the unit as well as unit morale, experience, fatigue, leadership and supply. CV values displayed for units are non-random approximations of what in combat is a series of die rolls and thus somewhat random values, so no single CV can be more than a guide to how the unit will perform in any particular combat. When Fog of War (FOW) is enabled the accuracy of the CV will be further degraded as the detection level (DL) decreases (13).


Leo "Apollo11"
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carlkay58
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by carlkay58 »

A few possibilities:

Note that the Soviets lose 10-20% of their combat strength when not defending in level 2+ forts until Dec 42. This is right off the top.

Axis units have the additional corps level of command that increases the likelihood of making their checks.

Axis Morale is probably at least 20-30 points higher than the Soviets - their NM is 30 points higher than the Soviets in Spring 42. Morale differences make a HUGE CV difference.
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Baelfiin
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Baelfiin »

Are you counting corp level support units that are being committed to the attack in your initial CV dispalyed? Artillery and Air support can cause changes between what you see and what you end up with.
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
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Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Please refer to WitE manual - in it the CV is explained! [;)]

Thus, the on counter CVs you see are different than CVs calculated in battle!


BTW it is not possible to include various dice rolls in on counter CVs - it is quite obvious that CVs would fluctuate constantly and then the CVs would server no purpose at all...

Apollo, I know what is written in the manual very well. Almost too well. This is why I am so unhappy.

The CV on the counters is well off. And it is a rule, not an exception. I provided enough data to show that it is wrong . As such it needs to be changed! Surely, you can get a better display approximation than it is there now - now it is a joke. Game which does not provide meaningful information to the players is a badly designed game. Those displayed CV are totally misleading - as such they must be changed! Make this your priority.

As for including leaders, well, it seems that Germans in this turn had over 90% chance for changing CV to twice. Sorry, this can easily be included in the CV displayed. Just double it. No excuses!!!
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

A few possibilities:

Note that the Soviets lose 10-20% of their combat strength when not defending in level 2+ forts until Dec 42. This is right off the top.

Axis units have the additional corps level of command that increases the likelihood of making their checks.

Axis Morale is probably at least 20-30 points higher than the Soviets - their NM is 30 points higher than the Soviets in Spring 42. Morale differences make a HUGE CV difference.

It is all true! I just want to have it included in the on map CV (btw, morale is included I believe). It can be done and should be done. Some of those, like the loss of combat strength when not defending in level 2+ (or is it 3?) should be included in the CV immediately. If the CV can be displayed as doubled on map during blizzard, it surely can be multiplied by 0.8 when not in lvl 2+ entrenchment. As such, it needs fixing and fast, as otherwise the game does not provide right information to either of the player. I am fine with scattering of the values around the displayed CV. I am totally not fine when the combat values are not scattered, but systematically wrong - and this is the case right now. The game now does not provide right information to the players (both of them), as such it is broken - and badly broken.
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Baelfiin
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Baelfiin »

Any chance of a screenshot showing what your concerns are Toidi? I see your list above but I dont understand what it means in game terms.
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Are you counting corp level support units that are being committed to the attack in your initial CV dispalyed? Artillery and Air support can cause changes between what you see and what you end up with.

Of course, those are counted. Air is not really - because it is not counted in the displayed CV at the beginning of the battle. Support units are: this is how I got all those numbers - from the battle screens, after pressing F11. Again, for the support units, HQ should have the combat value equal to the support units in the HQ. Maybe they should displace as they do now, but the offensive CV should be displayed. It would give good estimate of how good units you have in the HQ. Defensive value may be zero, as it is now.

My point is that the values are systematically wrong - Germans are actually twice too low, Russians are somewhat too high. This is game breaking as the player is not given right information. I am fine with approximate information, and some scattering of the values. But my data show that the CV approximation is systematically wrong, and that should be fixed.
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Any chance of a screenshot showing what your concerns are Toidi? I see your list above but I dont understand what it means in game terms.

Sure, I can post all the screenshots from the battle reports - with the initial CV displayed and final odds. Will take few hours to prepare. Is that really necessary?
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Baelfiin
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Baelfiin »

Just trying to help dude. I know it can be frustrating not being able to see every nut, bolt and die roll in the combat calculations.
You do understand that the initial CV is just that: initial. Its before air power, before artillery, before leadership.
Maybe just one or two screenies so that I'm looking at the same thing you are 8)
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Just trying to help dude. I know it can be frustrating not being able to see every nut, bolt and die roll in the combat calculations.
You do understand that the initial CV is just that: initial. Its before air power, before artillery, before leadership.
Maybe just one or two screenies so that I'm looking at the same thing you are 8)

The thing is that I quite understand the mechanics and how the game works. Actually, I can somehow justify most of the *reductions* in the Soviet CV. But I cannot justify systematic increases of the Axis CV - it seems to me that they really should be doubled on display. Actually - not really doubled but multiplied by the likehood that their CV will be doubled in battle - which in this turn would be actually pretty much doubled (this is not difficult to do, as you get the probability of rolls on all chains of commands and multiply the displayed value). Same for Soviets, I would like to have their CV adjusted, so the real battles are more or less scattered around the initial CV. As for air support, again, I think that the probability of getting air support should be included in CV, so basically when you move the air base closer, the cv of the units should increase. In such case, the game will be much less frustrating - both for the Germans (who will know that they can attack more or less safely) and for the Soviets (who will know whether they can defend or not). As it is now, the whole strategy can be trashed due to the fact that the displayed attack CV are just too low for German and the defense CV are too high for Soviets. And you are frustrated that the game gave you wrong information - had you had it correct, you would acted differently.

The funny thing is, that, the defense CV of Germans is more or less right, and the attack CV of Russians (if not in blizzard, where in Feb I had to attack 3-4:1 to have a decent chance of success [yes on final 1:1 odds], so no 1:1 even after including graphical doubling of CV) is more or less ok. But not the other way round - the attack CV of Germans is too low, the defense one of Russians a bit too high - however for the Russians maybe just this 0.8 multiplication due to not being in entrenchments will be enough to do the job.

I will post the battle reports you request. Will take some time though... I had those issues for a long time but waited till blizzard ends, to post results in snow, so less randomness is included...
DTurtle
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by DTurtle »

The thing is that the initial CV value is at the start of the battle. The final CV value only reflects elements that are not destroyed, damaged, or disrupted. Since the Soviets can see humongous numbers in disruption, etc this has large influence on the final CV comparison.

In addition, the doubling of Soviet CV is only for on-map CV - it does not double the actual CV of those units in the combats or in the battle reports.
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: DTurtle

The thing is that the initial CV value is at the start of the battle. The final CV value only reflects elements that are not destroyed, damaged, or disrupted. Since the Soviets can see humongous numbers in disruption, etc this has large influence on the final CV comparison.

In addition, the doubling of Soviet CV is only for on-map CV - it does not double the actual CV of those units in the combats or in the battle reports.


There is no doubling of CV in March, sorry. That is why I waited until March.

As for the disruption, I know how it works very well. Still, the CV values for Germans are clearly wrong. And actually I believe that the displayed CV values for Soviets are also wrong - one thing is the 0.8 modifier - if it is not included in the display, it should be ASAP. The other thing is that it should be taken into account that they will be disrupted, based on the reckon around (if you have no reckon, ok, no change, but if you know that there is that much artillery and planes around you cannot counter with your own planes, display the CV lower).

The CV values for Germans now are hugely misleading as those are almost always doubled. The CV values for Soviets are misleading, as they are almost always lower.
carlkay58
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by carlkay58 »

I understand what you are saying Toidi. I find that as the Axis I want the total displayed CV to be twice the Soviet's displayed CV to win regularly. The Soviet CV, on the other hand, needs to be eight to ten times the displayed Axis to regularly win (and that is with the 1:1->2:1 shift). You just have to get a feel for it and go with it.
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Apollo11
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Toidi
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Please refer to WitE manual - in it the CV is explained! [;)]

Thus, the on counter CVs you see are different than CVs calculated in battle!


BTW it is not possible to include various dice rolls in on counter CVs - it is quite obvious that CVs would fluctuate constantly and then the CVs would server no purpose at all...

Apollo, I know what is written in the manual very well. Almost too well. This is why I am so unhappy.

The CV on the counters is well off. And it is a rule, not an exception. I provided enough data to show that it is wrong . As such it needs to be changed! Surely, you can get a better display approximation than it is there now - now it is a joke. Game which does not provide meaningful information to the players is a badly designed game. Those displayed CV are totally misleading - as such they must be changed! Make this your priority.

As for including leaders, well, it seems that Germans in this turn had over 90% chance for changing CV to twice. Sorry, this can easily be included in the CV displayed. Just double it. No excuses!!!

I am afraid that you didn't understand what I wrote - that's why I will again refer you to manual!

Also bashing developers will get you nowhere - thus please mind your language here (I refer you to BOLD RED ITALICS in your post)!!!


The CV number you see on counters on map are just approximations - we told you that guys hundreds of times - the actual CV values that appear in combat screens are what counts (and those can be altered by FoW - so beware).


We can't make the CV numbers on counters on map be more "realistic" because that is impossible to do - the combat depends on so many variables that can change via various dice rolls that are unique (i.e. no combat will be same)!



Leo "Apollo11"
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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I understand what you are saying Toidi. I find that as the Axis I want the total displayed CV to be twice the Soviet's displayed CV to win regularly. The Soviet CV, on the other hand, needs to be eight to ten times the displayed Axis to regularly win (and that is with the 1:1->2:1 shift). You just have to get a feel for it and go with it.


Actually Axis need 1:1 displayed CV to comfortably win in March '42, and that was acknowledged by my opponent. I want the displayed CV of axis be doubled, so it is 2:1 on display and on battle screen. Also, I would suggest lowering the displayed Soviet CV somewhat. And no, I am not willing to live with it; I believe it is a bad game design.

Actually, when I attack in March, things are more or less ok - if I attack with 2x German CV, I generally have good chances to win. However, Germans can easily attack with equal CV and be almost certain that they win. As such, their displayed attack CV should be doubled, to account for that. Also, Soviet defensive CV should be lowered a little bit, as it is rarely around the initial value at the end of the battle.
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Toidi
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Please refer to WitE manual - in it the CV is explained! [;)]

Thus, the on counter CVs you see are different than CVs calculated in battle!


BTW it is not possible to include various dice rolls in on counter CVs - it is quite obvious that CVs would fluctuate constantly and then the CVs would server no purpose at all...

Apollo, I know what is written in the manual very well. Almost too well. This is why I am so unhappy.

The CV on the counters is well off. And it is a rule, not an exception. I provided enough data to show that it is wrong . As such it needs to be changed! Surely, you can get a better display approximation than it is there now - now it is a joke. Game which does not provide meaningful information to the players is a badly designed game. Those displayed CV are totally misleading - as such they must be changed! Make this your priority.

As for including leaders, well, it seems that Germans in this turn had over 90% chance for changing CV to twice. Sorry, this can easily be included in the CV displayed. Just double it. No excuses!!!

I am afraid that you didn't understand what I wrote - that's why I will again refer you to manual!

Also bashing developers will get you nowhere - thus please mind your language here (I refer you to BOLD RED ITALICS in your post)!!!


The CV number you see on counters on map are just approximations - we told you that guys hundreds of times - the actual CV values that appear in combat screens are what counts (and those can be altered by FoW - so beware).


We can't make the CV numbers on counters on map be more "realistic" because that is impossible to do - the combat depends on so many variables that can change via various dice rolls that are unique (i.e. no combat will be same)!



Leo "Apollo11"


Apollo, but the approximations are way off the mark. This is what I am saying, and as such they should be changed!

If your approximation 9 times out of 10 is twice too low, this shows that the approximation is not that great! It is, I think relatively obvious, and I cannot understand why anyone has any issues with that. And yes, I believe that if you feed wrong information to the players, you - unfortunately - need to be prepared to hearing things like above. I can't understand how you can defend the displayed "approximations" when they are clearly wrong. If something is wrong 9 times out of 10, well, you should probably change it so it is correct 9 times out of 10, not defend the built in values.
Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

Part 1 of screens:

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Toidi
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RE: Displayed CV is way off the real one: please fix

Post by Toidi »

Screens part 2 of 3:



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