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RE: Oh Bugger......

 
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RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/15/2012 7:04:51 AM   
obvert


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Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).



< Message edited by obvert -- 11/15/2012 9:13:26 AM >


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Post #: 31
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/15/2012 1:01:35 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8622
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).




Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.

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Post #: 32
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/15/2012 3:03:45 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7233
Joined: 12/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Looking back and having viewed a few turns since, it looks like surface radar is the key. I don't think any IJN warships can upgrade to get this yet in my game.........


Yes, "maximum surface visibility 2,000 yards. And your SCTF never made visual contact at all. This was all radar. And, radar upgrades help Japan a bit but not that much.

There is a luck factor involve because if your surface TF had made visual contact at 2,000 yards then the long lance would have come into play. So, it could have been a disaster for the Allies. But you were only at that range for a brief time so the odds were against you. I suppose radar helps with evasion just as much as it does for attack.

I should add that at 2,000 yards at night there is also a very good chance that your BBs would not fire their big guns or fire and miss. This happens more often than not. As it should....



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Post #: 33
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/15/2012 3:05:30 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7233
Joined: 12/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).




Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.



But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.

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Post #: 34
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/15/2012 3:17:11 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14903
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).




Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.



But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.

Really?

Edit to Add: I haven't saved any examples, but I recall seeing plenty of times when an escort saved protected ships.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 11/15/2012 3:26:01 PM >


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Post #: 35
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/15/2012 6:21:15 PM   
Helldiver


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From: SRA
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Nice long-range bump, Miller. One of my major personal problems with AE is remembering to take the looong view before I make too many assumptions.... man, this game is a complex education, no?

Regards,
Helldiver

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Post #: 36
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/15/2012 6:51:48 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1957
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).




Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.



But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.


Screening happens (troop/cargo convoys). The only surface combat I had with CVs was in my game vs Arnhem. My ships managed to sink Wasp and I think its escorts were ineffective. Need to check the date Wasp sank to be sure on my losses..

Edit: found the combat report... 3 lonely destroyers

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 28, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Aoba Island at 125,150, Range 2,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 20 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 8 destroyed
TBF-1 Avenger: 10 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsukaze
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CA Minneapolis
CLAA San Juan, Shell hits 1
CLAA Oakland, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CL Helena, Shell hits 2
DD Taylor
DD Waller
DD Laffey, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Duncan
DD Woodworth, Shell hits 1
DD Bailey
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 17% moonlight: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
Fuel storage explosion on CV Wasp
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CLAA Oakland at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Waller engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Kisaragi at 2,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Woodworth at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CLAA San Juan engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 3,000 yards
Ammo storage explosion on CV Wasp
CV Wasp sunk by DD Hatsukaze at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Woodworth at 5,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 5,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 11/15/2012 7:07:46 PM >


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Post #: 37
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/16/2012 3:09:41 AM   
Knavey

 

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From: Valrico, Florida
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Looks like you had your CVs screen the escorts. Didn't have that button checked did you?

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Post #: 38
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/16/2012 12:14:07 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
Main problem is the old line of battle design...still amazed that a game with such a huge naval element never got a decent surface combat model.

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Post #: 39
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/16/2012 12:50:02 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12272
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, I'm certainly not fond of the escorts of Japanese CVs and their (in)ability to fire back or screen the CVs, which I discovered on turn two of my game with Historiker. When a TF with a 22 knot BB managed to somehow get in range of the KB moving at 28 knots, and stay there, (then catch them again!) raining big shells on the CVs, the two BBs did relatively little to respond. Certainly not a plausible situation in reality, where those BBs and CAs would have ducked in front and blasted away recklessly while the CVs would have run to a safe distance behind them. Not firing and not moving to screen has nothing to do with radar if the enemy is visible in daylight.

So even in good visibility the Air combat TF BB/CA are ineffectual against surface combatants, even those that are slower than the CV TF. There is nothing we can do but not get caught, I guess, or always travel with a SCTF in the same hex as the CVs. The game is not reality. That's what I learned (the hard way).




Right. The game is hexes. Inside the hex there is no tactical geometry, only random numbers. So expecting screens to precede carriers in their historic posture is always going to diappoint. But what takes away also gives back. Imagine the complexity if big guns, or subs, could fire between hexes.



But I seem to remember that in UV screens did work and frequently the escort was sacrificed and the escorted saved. Never happens in AE.


Screening happens (troop/cargo convoys). The only surface combat I had with CVs was in my game vs Arnhem. My ships managed to sink Wasp and I think its escorts were ineffective. Need to check the date Wasp sank to be sure on my losses..

Edit: found the combat report... 3 lonely destroyers

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 28, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Aoba Island at 125,150, Range 2,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 20 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 8 destroyed
TBF-1 Avenger: 10 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsukaze
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CA Minneapolis
CLAA San Juan, Shell hits 1
CLAA Oakland, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CL Helena, Shell hits 2
DD Taylor
DD Waller
DD Laffey, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Duncan
DD Woodworth, Shell hits 1
DD Bailey
DD Caldwell
DD Frazier



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 17% moonlight: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
Fuel storage explosion on CV Wasp
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CLAA Oakland at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Waller engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Kisaragi at 2,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Woodworth at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages CV Wasp at 2,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Laffey at 2,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
CLAA San Juan engages DD Natsushio at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Laffey at 3,000 yards
Ammo storage explosion on CV Wasp
CV Wasp sunk by DD Hatsukaze at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Kisaragi engages DD Woodworth at 5,000 yards
DD Laffey engages DD Natsushio at 5,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...



hard to screen something when the battle starts at only 2000 yards

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Post #: 40
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/16/2012 1:49:32 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1957
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online
Is that so? The Wasp is the only carrier in the formation. How would you defend it?

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
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(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 41
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/16/2012 5:41:58 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12272
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Is that so? The Wasp is the only carrier in the formation. How would you defend it?



If the enemy pops up at 2000 yards there is not much you can do other than firing with everything you've got I guess. This is more a problem of the game routine though, because it ignores the fact that radar picked up the attacker at 7000 yards already but nothing happens until the two sides can actually spot each other. The carrier would probably start running the moment the enemy is picked up on radar at 7000 yards, not waiting until someone identifies the enemy at 2000 yards to see torps being fired right at the carrier.

Real life would see the battle starting at 7000 yards with the Allied reacting first when the Japanese don't even know they are there until they stumble into them at 2000 yards or when they are suddenly being shot at by something 7000 yards away. In the game, you get a disadvantage for having a CV TF fighting a surface combat TF and you have to fight while you would just run immediately after picking up the enemy at 7000 yards (the carrier with some escort at least). Add in the super hero IJN night experience and voila, you lose.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 11/16/2012 5:43:59 PM >


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Post #: 42
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/16/2012 5:52:40 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2539
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Dontblinkyoullmissit, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Is that so? The Wasp is the only carrier in the formation. How would you defend it?

Ah, let's see.
The carrier is usually the center of the TF, with at about 1500 K yards out, the heavy escorts. In this case, 1 CA & 2 CLAA - the CA probably ahead, and the two CLAA just abaft each beam. Another 1500-2000 yards out is the bulk of the DD screen - probably 6 DD in a rough circle, with two more DD 1000-1500 yards ahead of the formation.

So, in this encounter, three IJN DD's manage to basically get into the heart of the formation to spot the CV without being spotted by screening ships as much as 3500 yards out from the CV, let alone the radar contact. Unless the collective leadership of the entire formation had the collective intelligence of a Zabriskan Fontema someone would have spotted and engaged well before the IJN spotted the CV.

In other words, this does not compute - except in the world of cyber battles.

Lord, have mercy. I forgot Helena is also in that TF. IJN DD's should have been smothered at 7K yards.

< Message edited by RevRick -- 11/16/2012 5:55:13 PM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/16/2012 7:13:42 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4588
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Is that so? The Wasp is the only carrier in the formation. How would you defend it?

Ah, let's see.
The carrier is usually the center of the TF, with at about 1500 K yards out, the heavy escorts. In this case, 1 CA & 2 CLAA - the CA probably ahead, and the two CLAA just abaft each beam. Another 1500-2000 yards out is the bulk of the DD screen - probably 6 DD in a rough circle, with two more DD 1000-1500 yards ahead of the formation.

So, in this encounter, three IJN DD's manage to basically get into the heart of the formation to spot the CV without being spotted by screening ships as much as 3500 yards out from the CV, let alone the radar contact. Unless the collective leadership of the entire formation had the collective intelligence of a Zabriskan Fontema someone would have spotted and engaged well before the IJN spotted the CV.

In other words, this does not compute - except in the world of cyber battles.

Lord, have mercy. I forgot Helena is also in that TF. IJN DD's should have been smothered at 7K yards.



Agree, its the world of cyber battles, no doubt.

But what bothers me in this regard is: What are the distances measured from? You always see a uniform distance throughout the battles, neither the combat replay nor the combat report
discern between varying distances of individual ships, just of formations.

In your case the formation probably looks like a rough ellipse with the CV in the center, the IJN DDs I suppose would attack in line ahead formation.

Does anybody know? I am aware it is an abstraction as so much else in the game, but if the distance is measure @ 2000 yards I would recon it is measured at the point of the formation where
the distance is closest, so in this specific abstraction the distance between the leading IJN DD and one of the USN screening DDs, with the CV further out.

The engine might not provide enough detail to model this, but I wonder if this is the best interpretation.

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Post #: 44
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