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Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining experience

 
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Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining exper... - 12/31/2011 1:37:53 AM   
doomtrader


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I'm still waiting for a confirmation from Numdydar, but I'm under impression of this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2997449

Obviously such strong unit moves the game balance into wrong side, so I'm wondering, didn't the units gain experience too fast.
Currently unit gains 3 exp points for each battle it is participating, so wise commanding of some units and a little bit of luck, can create a monster with 100 exp within 15-20 turns.
What I'm thinking about is to reduce the exp income to 1 exp for combat, but this will mostly affect the Germans and change the gamebalance a lot, so that's why I'm asking all of you to share your opinions in this matter.

Of course this can be easily modded, but I would like to adjust the game to be adequate even for novice players.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 2:37:59 AM   
Razz


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Did he Mod the files?

I have only seen Level 3 at 36 strength with 100% experience Corps size unit.

Also which scenario? That makes a big difference.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 3:14:57 AM   
stone10


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German lv.3 tank corps - 13.5 strength
-----
lv.5 land warfare doctrine = +125%
Guderian with 20 exp = 8*3 + 20 = +44%
100 unit exp = +100%
-----
+269% in total.

13.5 * (1+269%) = 49.815 round down to 49. It is impossible to get to 50 strength without mod the setting files.

< Message edited by stone10 -- 12/31/2011 3:16:02 AM >

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 3:46:10 AM   
Razz


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He is at level 3

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 5:10:04 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

Did he Mod the files?

I have only seen Level 3 at 36 strength with 100% experience Corps size unit.

Also which scenario? That makes a big difference.


GC starting in 1939, no mods. I actually have 5 like this

lv.4 land warfare doctrine.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 12/31/2011 5:21:18 AM >

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 6:39:50 AM   
Razz


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Plus the temporary increase in effectivity for Capturing Moscow.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 7:04:59 AM   
freeboy

 

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I think it should be a percentage.. 100 - current = X ... that  figure, lower exp results in larger .. multiplied by .1 thus   50 experience unit would gain
100 - 50= 50 multiplied by .1 = 5 gained.. but a 90 would only get 1     100-90=10 multiplied by .1 = 1

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 7:17:59 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

Plus the temporary increase in effectivity for Capturing Moscow.


As I said before Moscow was captured in '41 and this shot was in July '42 long after Moscow fell.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 10:18:46 AM   
doomtrader


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Some things might depend on his choices when advancing on another levels.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 12:33:07 PM   
oldspec4

 

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I'm into turn 141 (1 Aug '42) of the grand campaign as the Russians, normal, no mods.

The Germans have one 50 strength panzer and three or four 40 strength monsters overrunning everything close to Stalingrad. This is totally unhistorical and is ruining the immersion and fun factor in the game.

IMO, something ( e.g., battle experience impacts) should be done to adjust/reduce the probability of such large strength gains.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 3:32:01 PM   
willgamer


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Grand Campaign, turn 148, normal, no mods, England occupied, Iraq occupied, Russia surrendered, Yugo surrendered.

There are four level 3 panzer corps at 49-8 or better.

The best is 55-8: exp 100; eff 411%; war doc 116; commander 44; exp 100; commander 8/20; (everything else=0).

No problems!

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 3:45:02 PM   
doomtrader


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This makes me almost completely sure that effectiveness is the key here. I think we should start from slowing down gathering of experience and see how does the balance will be kept.
I would prefer to avoid touching war doctrine influence, as with the different difficulty levels the impact is different.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 4:24:11 PM   
RandomAttack


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Would it be reasonable/possible to put a simple cap on effectiveness?

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 4:43:52 PM   
freeboy

 

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did you not like my change suggestion? changes linear progress into something aliitle more resembling reality no?

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 5:07:25 PM   
RandomAttack


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My fundamental concern is that there should be some kind of hard limit on experience/effectiveness impacts. If you have a "20" strength Corps suddenly worth "50" because you added a "super leader" to it, and maybe more exp, etc., I just don't buy it at all. I know your suggestion would tone it down some, but I still feel a hard cap is needed. I'm ok with up to a total of 200% effectiveness (from all factors), after that it just seems unreal. My 100% effective Corps should not be able to triple or quadruple combat power just from leadership, exp, etc. If so, "100%" is essentially meaningless. Plus, in the real world, there is a fine line between "experience" and "combat fatigue"-- it simply is not an ever-increasing curve, nor does it keep increasing your combat power after a certain point. So I see this discussion as trying to determine what that finite point is, which implies a cap.

For experimental purposes at least, I think a hard cap is better.

< Message edited by RandomAttack -- 12/31/2011 5:08:51 PM >

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 5:30:37 PM   
doomtrader


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Freeboy, the idea is fine, but again, the unit can gain max exp in 30 battles, also this will require changes in the code.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 6:22:37 PM   
Razz


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We never had an impact like this.
I suggest rechecking the files as the Russian increase in effectiveness may have a typing error in it and the file is actually increasing the Germans.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 6:53:46 PM   
Numdydar

 

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The Germans get stronger when the Russians attck instaed of the Russians getting the exp? This is a great idea No need to change this at all

We could even have a contest to see who could have the most powerful Pz Corp

Sarcasm aside, this definately needs to be changed. I had three of these running around togeather at one point and nothing could surive. Great fun, but not very realistic sad to say

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 7:05:22 PM   
doomtrader


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@RandomAttack,
From the experience you are gaining only 100% and another and I personally think most important factor is the warfare doctrine level. This is 25% each level basic bonus for Germans.
So the current experience setting is causing that the unit is getting stronger too fast and is not gaining any casualties, so the experience is not reduced and is able to continue fights and gaining more experience.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 7:08:26 PM   
doomtrader


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Numdydar, both sides are gaining experience, but the losses for both sides are not equal.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 12/31/2011 7:37:36 PM   
macroeconomics

 

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I think toning down the benefits from x.p. is a better solution than slowing down x.p gains. Right now it's already quite hard for infantry to get x.p. The only units to get super high x.p. levels are the German panzers. That's because they can attack multiple times per turn and can concentrate multiple units into an attack to ensure 7:1 odds. The latter is important because replacements/reinforcements greatly dilute x.p. gains. Even if x.p gains were limited to 1 x.p. per battle I can still see a German player boosting panzer corps to 100 x.p. in a couple of years.

Instead if the benefits from x.p. being at 20-40 were reduced by 20%, the benefits from x.p. being from 41-60 were reduced by 40%, the benefits from x.p. at 61-80 were reduced by 60% and the benefits from x.p at 81-100 were reduced by 80%, that would in aggregate reduce the x.p benefits for a 100 x.p. unit by 40%. And that would hold no matter how a German player attempts to game x.p. gains to his mobile units.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 1/1/2012 1:38:59 AM   
aspqrz

 

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Actually, experience gain should decline fairly rapidly with time out of combat ... especially for the Panzers ...

Did you know, for example, that most German tanks used Eyeball Mk. I for targetting and rangefinding?

(Yes, they usually had Stadiametric or Optical, and trained to use these, but actually *didn't* as it was faster to simply estimate on the fly)

Their tactics showed that it was more effective, since you could not only get off the first shot, but have a much higher chance of first shot hitting.

So their tank commanders trained extensively in doing just this.

Problem.

The skill is tangibly ephemeral. Being out of combat (one leave, for example) for as short a period as a week, resulted in significant loss of ability.

So, make combat experience equally ephemeral. Only Doctrine should offer a permanent, lasting increase (sans casualties - its effect should be reduced by excessive casualties in the way standard experience now is) ... Battle Experience should start to decline immediately ... and, of course, there should be a cap, probably a multiple of Doctrine value ... beyond a certain point soldiers, especially soldiers and much less so airmen and sailors, have a limit to how much they can process ... beyond that they become either psychological casualties or actual casualties.

You did know, for example, that the pre-war German euthanasia program was primarily intended not as a racial cleansing method, though this was often how it was sold, but, much more cynically, and hidden away in the documentation, it was done to free up asylum/sanitarium beds for expected psychological casualties in a war that was, by their (incorrect, as it turned out) planning expectations, some five to seven years off.

And, of course, you know that the US War Department estimated, based on WW1 and early WW2 experience, that a typical soldier was good, allowing for individual differences, somewhere between 200-250 days in a combat theater of operations before they became a psychological casualty (the Allies, in general, handled psychological casualties very very badly, effectively taking a 100% military loss for each, whereas the Germans, ruthless as they were, had a much better system and were able to return most of their casualties to some degree of military effectiveness) ... and around 250=300 days before they became an actual combat casualty.

In effect, averages being what they are, it was a race between becoming a psychological casualty or an actual casualty ... and experience didn't help.

Experience was the *problem*.

(NB: It is believed that a significant number of *actual* casualties amongst long-serving soldiers were, in fact, the result of psychological factors that did not result in an obvious breakdown, but reduced military effectiveness to the point where carelessness or risk taking or whatever became the reason for the actual casualty.)

So there is a good case not only for experience ephemerality, but also for experience caps which, if exceeded, actually result in experience/effectiveness *loss* because the troops are simply worn out.

YMMV.

Phil

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 1/1/2012 10:10:21 AM   
doomtrader


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I would really like to avoid adding new rules and new tables into the units data files, which we will have to track.

I'm still sure that we need some change, and the kind of change I have proposed can be very easy reverted without the need of releasing the patch.
Also it might work with a proposition made in other thread that unit always should gain some losses.

On the other hand this is right that Infantry units gain experience a way slower, because at the beginning they are able to attack usually only once. But thats makes sense in dome way, as the Armored units were the elites and spearheads of each army.

In the long run, freeboy's proposition looks most interesting.

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RE: Major gameplay change - reducing speed of gaining e... - 1/2/2012 12:54:08 AM   
oldspec4

 

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Will there be a hotfix for a gameplay change anytime soon? My current Russian grand campaign is on hold for now.

Thanks

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