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What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 10:05:23 AM   
Chris H

 

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From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Woleai at 101,103

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 31
H8K2-L Emily x 16



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 4
F4U-1A Corsair x 7
F4U-1D Corsair x 10


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 20 destroyed
H8K2-L Emily: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
PT-231, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-227, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-255, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-225, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-187, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-233, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-228, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-229, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-230, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-226, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
25 x G4M2 Betty flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
10 x H8K2-L Emily flying as kamikaze

CAP engaged:
VF-17 with F4U-1D Corsair (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 57 minutes
VMF-441 with F4U-1A Corsair (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
No.17 Sqn RNZAF with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
Post #: 1
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 10:12:24 AM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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a) a waste of aircraft and b) those bombers would not be able to hit a fast moving PT

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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 10:13:09 AM   
LoBaron


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From: Vienna, Austria
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Emily Kamis??? Crashing into PT boats?!?! Oo WTF! Serious stuff man, serious stuff.

The rest of the story is somewhere in the realm of 7 minutes time to target.

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S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 10:16:06 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4519
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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
those bombers would not be able to hit a fast moving PT


In case they were static the Emilys could try to hit the PT´s by landing on the water
and driving on top of em.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 4
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 10:18:29 AM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
those bombers would not be able to hit a fast moving PT


In case they were static the Emilys could try to hit the PT´s by landing on the water
and driving on top of em.



(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 5
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 10:29:31 AM   
Erkki


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Or just land on the water and shoot them with the on-board machine guns and cannons... Lol.

(in reply to Chris H)
Post #: 6
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 10:57:16 AM   
Gunner98


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Raming Speed!! Bowling for PT boats

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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 1:17:16 PM   
Miller


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Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
Hey, at least they attacked ships. I will never forget one turn in the original WITP whereby I had 200 Kamis crash into a Chinese base.

(in reply to Gunner98)
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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 1:29:28 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
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From: Zagreb,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

a) a waste of aircraft and


In fact that is old and well known bug. But AE gods didnt touch this for a years. But at the other hand they have no problem with taking (your) money


hey mate, you re getting idea why im saying "what im saying"?

they included even a swagger stick for the commonwealth army but they didnt bother to fix such bugs, including inital attack on PH where mostly attack doesnt result with even a single one BB sunk. There are many examples like this one, not to mention "4E combat model"..




< Message edited by pauk -- 12/30/2011 1:31:50 PM >


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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 2:10:25 PM   
Miller


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From: Ashington, England.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

a) a waste of aircraft and


In fact that is old and well known bug. But AE gods didnt touch this for a years. But at the other hand they have no problem with taking (your) money


hey mate, you re getting idea why im saying "what im saying"?

they included even a swagger stick for the commonwealth army but they didnt bother to fix such bugs, including inital attack on PH where mostly attack doesnt result with even a single one BB sunk. There are many examples like this one, not to mention "4E combat model"..






Well going off most of the AARs I have read, two or more BBs are usually lost in the PH attacks Or are you referring to the original WITP?

< Message edited by Miller -- 12/30/2011 2:12:12 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 2:13:29 PM   
Erkki


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Miller check out my AAR's 2 first pages.

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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 2:23:32 PM   
Puhis

 

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Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

a) a waste of aircraft and


In fact that is old and well known bug. But AE gods didnt touch this for a years. But at the other hand they have no problem with taking (your) money


hey mate, you re getting idea why im saying "what im saying"?

they included even a swagger stick for the commonwealth army but they didnt bother to fix such bugs, including inital attack on PH where mostly attack doesnt result with even a single one BB sunk. There are many examples like this one, not to mention "4E combat model"..






Well going off most of the AARs I have read, two or more BBs are usually lost in the PH attacks Or are you referring to the original WITP?


Well I've started 5 PBEM games as Japan, and my best PH score is 2 BBs sunk (once), usually it have been 0 or 1 BB sunk.

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 12
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 3:11:06 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
Status: offline
And if you want to you can sink 6. Easily put, the IJN has the possibility to hang around a week and have hundreds of Kate sorties to sink each and every ship in PH's harbour. How long does it actually take until KB runs out of sorties? It takes forever if the IJ commander isn't crazy enough to use Vals all the time together with the Kates. Knock out the airfield, then kill the BBs at will. After 400 Kate sorties, how many BBs are left then? It's the IJN that gets BB killing bombs, not the Allied. And seriously, if you go for the airfield on day one, then there is just nothing the IJN has to worry about, there is nothing on Hawaii that could hit a moving ship, the chance to see that is as high as having two carriers collide during movement.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 12/30/2011 3:12:56 PM >


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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 3:14:52 PM   
Erkki


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Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

And if you want to you can sink 6. Easily put, the IJN has the possibility to hang around a week and have hundreds of Kate sorties to sink each and every ship in PH's harbour. How long does it actually take until KB runs out of sorties? It takes forever if the IJ commander isn't crazy enough to use Vals all the time together with the Kates. Knock out the airfield, then kill the BBs at will. After 400 Kate sorties, how many BBs are left then? It's the IJN that gets BB killing bombs, not the Allied. And seriously, if you go for the airfield on day one, then there is just nothing the IJN has to worry about, there is nothing on Hawaii that could hit a moving ship, the chance to see that is as high as having two carriers collide during movement.


After 3 days and 308 B5N sorties exactly 0 BBs and 0 other ships down with 6 torpedo hits on BBs(torp hits from all days). As I said above, see the first page of my AAR....

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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 3:38:57 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
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Looks like something michealm needs to look into...kami's should not be attacking PTs. Looks like an easy thing to exploit on the allied side.

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Post #: 15
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 3:54:40 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3458
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

a) a waste of aircraft and


In fact that is old and well known bug. But AE gods didnt touch this for a years. But at the other hand they have no problem with taking (your) money


hey mate, you re getting idea why im saying "what im saying"?

they included even a swagger stick for the commonwealth army but they didnt bother to fix such bugs, including inital attack on PH where mostly attack doesnt result with even a single one BB sunk. There are many examples like this one, not to mention "4E combat model"..






Well going off most of the AARs I have read, two or more BBs are usually lost in the PH attacks Or are you referring to the original WITP?


Well I've started 5 PBEM games as Japan, and my best PH score is 2 BBs sunk (once), usually it have been 0 or 1 BB sunk.




I recently started a new Ironman Japan v3 scenario.

I ran the first turn 10 times before I got a decent enough start for the Japanese to be worth playing on.

However, 7 out of 10 results delivered 2 BBs sunk ( I just don't consider that a good enough start to play on).

I result delivered 1 BB sunk. 1 result delivered 0 BBs sunk.

I finally got a 7 BBs sunk result on the 10th iteration and decided to play that one out.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 12/30/2011 4:19:19 PM >


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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 4:22:39 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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Just for the record...

AE does NOT pre-script battle results. If you want specific (historical?) results, use a scenario that starts after that battle ends.

For ALL combat there is a high use of random. This means that any outcome is possible. Trying to apply historical results to any specific game battle is a complete waste of time.

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Post #: 17
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 4:38:40 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7100
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From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
Not necessarily a scripted outcome, I'd rather have a less predictable outcome. Right now, the average result is pretty historical, though exact ships lost may not match history. A little more randomness wouldn't be a bad thing.

As it stands, if you start the Dec 7 grand campaign, you can pretty well count on 0-2 BBs sunk (unless there are criticals). While in truth only Arizona was a total loss. Oklahoma was lost while being towed back to the mainland after having been righted and raised. The 0-2 loss is pretty accurate.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 4:45:27 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12261
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

And if you want to you can sink 6. Easily put, the IJN has the possibility to hang around a week and have hundreds of Kate sorties to sink each and every ship in PH's harbour. How long does it actually take until KB runs out of sorties? It takes forever if the IJ commander isn't crazy enough to use Vals all the time together with the Kates. Knock out the airfield, then kill the BBs at will. After 400 Kate sorties, how many BBs are left then? It's the IJN that gets BB killing bombs, not the Allied. And seriously, if you go for the airfield on day one, then there is just nothing the IJN has to worry about, there is nothing on Hawaii that could hit a moving ship, the chance to see that is as high as having two carriers collide during movement.


After 3 days and 308 B5N sorties exactly 0 BBs and 0 other ships down with 6 torpedo hits on BBs(torp hits from all days). As I said above, see the first page of my AAR....



must have been more than bad luck, I would bet this won't happen in 9 out of 10 times.

My game vs. mortar showed 14 torp hits the first round only and I don't consider this a lot. In my game against 1eyedjacks he scored something like two dozen torp hits the first day alone. And then there are the unlimited number of 800kg bombs. I just can't believe I wouldn't be able to sink a couple of BB if I stick around long enough if there isn't something really exceptionell happening.

Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 1,100 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 68
B5N2 Kate x 144
D3A1 Val x 126



Allied aircraft

no flights


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 11 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 7 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 5 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 19 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
B-18A Bolo: 53 damaged
B-18A Bolo: 4 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 53 damaged
B-17D Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 162 damaged
PBY-5 Catalina: 6 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 14 damaged
A-20A Havoc: 4 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 85 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 4 destroyed on ground
C-33: 2 damaged
SBD-1 Dauntless: 28 damaged
SBD-1 Dauntless: 4 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 13 damaged
F4F-3 Wildcat: 10 damaged
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 9 damaged
O-47A: 2 destroyed on ground
P-36A Mohawk: 16 damaged
P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed on ground
R3D-2: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CM Oglala
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AV Tangier
DM Pruitt
DM Montgomery
AV Wright
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires
DD Tucker, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
BB California, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
PT-28, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA San Francisco, Torpedo hits 1
xAK Florence D., Bomb hits 1, on fire



edit: I do count 9 torp hits the first round in your game though. Unfortunately your cr doesn't show the weather nor what the bombers are attack or from with alt they bomb but you don't seem to be even getting a 10% hit rate from your Kates if they actually attack the ships in port and not something else. Your Kates must be quite unique with such a hit rate.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 12/30/2011 4:52:02 PM >


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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 5:09:35 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4519
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Just for the record...

AE does NOT pre-script battle results. If you want specific (historical?) results, use a scenario that starts after that battle ends.

For ALL combat there is a high use of random. This means that any outcome is possible. Trying to apply historical results to any specific game battle is a complete waste of time.


This.

Actually, in another thread I noticed many players want both, history recreated and fair results.
Could be a contradiction, what do I know...

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 20
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 5:57:07 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3458
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: online
My post was simply intended to document that that the average results seem to be very close to the historical results.

I simply don't consider a close to historical result (2 BBs lost) good enough to serve for a start of an AI game.

The AI really, really needs the maximum victory points it can get right out of the starting gate.

When you play the AI, you don't play to win, you play to coddle the AI and help it along to keep it a viable opponent for as long as possible. That means providing it with the best possible first turn results.


and as a clarification I consider the Repulse a BB for reporting purposes as to how many BBs were sunk on turn 1.

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RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 9:33:41 PM   
Gridley380


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On the 'odd Pearl Harbor' tally, I'll note that in my... 2nd? vs AI game trial, I lost the USS Pennsylvania to a single torpedo on 12/7. Pretty impressive since she was in dry dock IRL... ;-)

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Post #: 22
RE: What do you make of this - 12/30/2011 11:29:45 PM   
jcjordan

 

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Joined: 6/27/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Woleai at 101,103

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 31
H8K2-L Emily x 16



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 4
F4U-1A Corsair x 7
F4U-1D Corsair x 10


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 20 destroyed
H8K2-L Emily: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
PT-231, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-227, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-255, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-225, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-187, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-233, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-228, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-229, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-230, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
PT-226, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
25 x G4M2 Betty flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
10 x H8K2-L Emily flying as kamikaze

CAP engaged:
VF-17 with F4U-1D Corsair (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 57 minutes
VMF-441 with F4U-1A Corsair (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
No.17 Sqn RNZAF with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead


Back to the OP, I assume it's vs AI? As far as Allied planes VF-17 is one of the historical groups w/ historical pilots & is rather high in xp so losses caused would be high due to unescorted bombers vs fighters. As to the kami on the PTs, in my game when I look at the AI side of things the AI seems to set kamis to 100ft alt so the low nav skill gets increased over time. IIRC 100ft is the alt setting you'd need to attack PT, barges & other small craft so that might be why the attack took place even though the combat report says 10k ft. Maybe one of the groups did come in at that alt while the other came in at 100ft & both did kami runs. It may not be as strange as you think based on how the combat model works however ahistorical it may be.

(in reply to Chris H)
Post #: 23
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