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Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design?

 
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Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/25/2011 6:46:52 PM   
Yskonyn


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I was browsinng through my warship encyclopedia when I found the entry about the Japanese Kongo (1913) which was designed and built by Vickers.
The entry also talks about the fact that many part were still delivered by Vickers eventhough the hulls were built in private wharfs in Japan later on.
Haruna and Kirishima were examples of this.

The entry stays vague about Japans ship production later on, but I was wondering wether it is known if the warship design of Japanese warships had indeed its roots in British designs and how this developed during WW2?
Did the Japanese had their own research and development regarding ships or had they designs reliant on foreign technology?

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/25/2011 7:02:11 PM   
warspite1


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The Japanese were, like many nations, reliant upon Britain for their warships at the start of the century. I believe Kongo was the last of the ships built in the UK. Thereafter the Japanese acquired the expertise to build large ships themselves.

Japan had a naval treaty with Britain (until just after WW1?) and there was a strong Royal Navy influence in the IJN - training, uniforms etc

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/25/2011 7:05:21 PM   
JuanG


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Well, Japan had a history of ordering ships from Britain in the pre-WWI era; and the Kongos were part of this, though as you say the later ones were built in Japan proper. The next designs, which were the Fuso class and the follow on Ise class, are clearly built using similar principles, but with a different purpose.

Nagato has differences, but follows a similar line of reasoning from Ise->Nagato that existed in Lion->Queen Elizabeth, though this was a trend that was paralelled in both the US and German navies too. Its probably the first Japanese BB that I would consider to be truly of their 'own' design, including Japanese designed weapons, armour layouts, etc.

The ships cancelled by the Washington Naval Treaty which were part of the 8-8 plan (Tosa class, Amagi class, Kii class, No13 class) are clearly different from the designs pursued by Britain at the time (G3, N3, other variants). If one studies the range of designs suggested by various nations in this era it becomes clear that a lot of similar concepts were looked at, but everyone ended up with slightly different choices. I have no doubt that there was some measure of awareness of what the other naval powers were doing, but in the end everyone has their own requirements and ideas of what is needed in a ship.

From the WW2 era, Taiho and the follow on G14 design are interesting ones, since they are very similar in design to some of the UK armoured carriers, which may have had some influence on their creation.

Like Warspite said, a lot of the naval tradition and procedures in the IJN had their roots in RN teachings.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 12/25/2011 7:09:33 PM >


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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/26/2011 12:08:07 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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Actually, I'm pretty sure the "Kongo's" were the last Japanese ships designed or built in Britian. Some similarities continued in the next designs as the Japanese designer's "felt" their way towards complete independence---but already such totally Japanese design features such as the hexipodal mast showed that they were going thier own way.

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/26/2011 3:08:29 AM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Actually, I'm pretty sure the "Kongo's" were the last Japanese ships designed or built in Britian. Some similarities continued in the next designs as the Japanese designer's "felt" their way towards complete independence---but already such totally Japanese design features such as the hexipodal mast showed that they were going thier own way.


They were, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I suppose my comment about Ise and Fuso could be taken to mean that, but what I meant rather was that a lot of their design in terms of protection, weapons, etc was taken from the skills learned building the later Kongos. Whereas the differences from these designs to Nagato were much more 'radical'. Also, I'm fairly certain both the Kongos and the follow on Fuso/Ise classes were built with tripod masts initially, and the hexapodal ones were added later. Nagato was the first design built with hexapodal masts, if my memory is correct; I don't have any reference materials at the moment, so I stand to be corrected.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 12/26/2011 3:14:40 AM >


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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/26/2011 10:11:28 AM   
jeffs


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The book Kaigun goes into this in fairly good detail (the process of the Japanese Navy starting off with foreign technology and gradually growing its own.

It seems the long lance was developed after the Japanese (mistakenly) visited Brit torpedo manufacturers and thought the brits were on to Oxygen fueled torpedo.
The Brits were not, but the incident spurred the IJN to work hard on oxygen torpedoes...

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/26/2011 3:20:46 PM   
Sardaukar


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IJN was heavily influenced by RN until middle-late 20's, IIRC.

One could read stories like from Shattered Sword, for IJN officers happily playing bridge (of all games) in their mess and such even in before Midway...shows how deep the influence was.

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/27/2011 12:36:07 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

The Brits were not, but the incident spurred the IJN to work hard on oxygen torpedoes...


Everyone worked on Oxy torps. Most nations rejected them because of the fire hazard. Given the number of Jap ships mission killed or worse from small caliber hits in the torpedo mount, the "double edged sword" cliche seems particularly appropriate.

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/27/2011 1:41:08 AM   
Cyber Me

 

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Maybe the Japanese should bought all their ships from the UK, and that would have saved them the embarrassment of ship-designing blunders like having the aircraft carriers with the islands on the port-side. Very sloppy.

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/27/2011 8:06:03 AM   
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I don't think they would have wanted British carriers pre-Ark Royal - and they certainly would not have wanted FAA aircraft. Imagine Pearl Harbor, replacing the Kido Butai and the Zero, Kate and Val with Eagle, Hermes, Argus, Furious, Courageous, Glorious and the Swordfish and Fulmar?

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/27/2011 5:40:40 PM   
starsis1

 

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Without trying to equate ships and plans of RN/FAA with IJN, I would like to remind that one British aircraft carrier (HMS Illustrious) launched a grand total of 21 Swordfish against Taranto in 1940 and sank 1 Italian battleship and seriously damaged 2 others. Truly a fantastic result! I shudder thinking what the combined might of RN could have done against a juice target like Pearl Harbour.

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/27/2011 6:22:16 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: starsis1

Without trying to equate ships and plans of RN/FAA with IJN, I would like to remind that one British aircraft carrier (HMS Illustrious) launched a grand total of 21 Swordfish against Taranto in 1940 and sank 1 Italian battleship and seriously damaged 2 others. Truly a fantastic result! I shudder thinking what the combined might of RN could have done against a juice target like Pearl Harbour.
Warspite1

I did say pre-Ark Royal. Operation Judgement did indeed provide a superb result - and handed out by just a handful of Stringbags . Quality.

Sadly the combined "might" of the RN carrier force in December 1941 - even with three Illustrious-class and Ark royal in place of Argus, Hermes, Furious and Eagle (and assuming Ark Royal, Glorious and Courageous had not been sunk)- would have been able to launch nothing like the number of aircraft that the Kido Butai did....




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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/28/2011 9:05:52 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: starsis1

Without trying to equate ships and plans of RN/FAA with IJN, I would like to remind that one British aircraft carrier (HMS Illustrious) launched a grand total of 21 Swordfish against Taranto in 1940 and sank 1 Italian battleship and seriously damaged 2 others. Truly a fantastic result! I shudder thinking what the combined might of RN could have done against a juice target like Pearl Harbour.
Warspite1

I did say pre-Ark Royal. Operation Judgement did indeed provide a superb result - and handed out by just a handful of Stringbags . Quality.

Sadly the combined "might" of the RN carrier force in December 1941 - even with three Illustrious-class and Ark royal in place of Argus, Hermes, Furious and Eagle (and assuming Ark Royal, Glorious and Courageous had not been sunk)- would have been able to launch nothing like the number of aircraft that the Kido Butai did....






Not only that but had the Royal Navy attacked Pearl Harbor I am pretty sure the whole Lend-Lease thing would have been off.

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/28/2011 9:20:11 PM   
warspite1


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Do you think? Some people just can't take a joke

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/28/2011 9:48:44 PM   
Alfred

 

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The repercussions would have been felt decades later. Imagine no Lend Lease, no spam. No spam, no Monty Python jokes about spam.

Alfred

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/28/2011 9:51:48 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The repercussions would have been felt decades later. Imagine no Lend Lease, no spam. No spam, no Monty Python jokes about spam.

Alfred


I think the effects of Australian "bully beef" were felt more deeply than spam....

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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/29/2011 3:19:43 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Yeah, but "bully beef" didn't fit in the comedy routine so well:

"bully beef, bully beef, eggs and bully beef" just doesn't have quite the same ring to it, now does it?


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RE: Japanese ships mostly found origin in British design? - 12/29/2011 4:25:36 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Well..Japan should have kept copying the British designs,
everyone wished they had RAF designs during the war..

Spitfire
Mosquito
Lancaster

germany tried to imitate the spitfire with the Bf-109F
japan tryied to imitate the spitfire with the Hien

oh.. this is about ships.. the whole fleet.. is lit up.. by lights

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