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RE: German child soldiers

 
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RE: German child soldiers - 12/24/2011 9:31:53 AM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1899
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
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It got worse and worse....




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 31
RE: German child soldiers - 12/24/2011 10:09:56 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1222
Joined: 6/12/2007
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Great pictures, Cannonfodder.  Hard to believe that Pelton might be convinced of this own arguments.

My impression is that casualties numbers in the Eastern War are quite inaccurate, and often all over the place.  They depend much on the sources of the authors, political twisting of numbers, the exact categorization etc.  The Glantz figures Pelton cites are surely at the upper end, while contemporary, official Russian figures (Stalin era) are somewhere at the lower boundary.  The truth is likely somewhere in between. 
As for the German figures I know that there is, despite with the accurate bureaucracy we followed in the war, and the huge effort going into accounting for killed, captured and missing Landsers, still a significant unknown there.  There is a Federal office still investigating the fate of missing soldiers, which some estimate could be almost 1Mio that are still unaccounted for.  Which fraction of these was already considered in the "Wehrmachtsberichte", Army reports, or other loss reports -- a questions that doesn't sound easy to answer.  I would guess the Soviets did probably not put so much value on documentation.

If Pelton wants historic casualty rating, he will have to follow a doctrine and strategy that was as well.  Much as his opponent would need to.  Which includes doing a lot of foolhardy stuff and repeating plentiful mistakes on both sides.  A player fighting basically a hindsight governed, politically-unaffected war of mobility and endurance with post-WW2 doctrines rather than aiming for a short campaign fought for elimination and destruction (assuming war will be won by Christmas...) cannot expect to get to the exact same numbers.

The true test of the engine would be fighting out a war exactly following the historical script, i.e. moving all units and engaging in combat (roughly or exactly) at the contemporary times and locations.  Since dice roles lead to a statistic distribution of events, one could do this a couple times over and then compare the average results to history to see whether the mechanics are correct, and the deviations in other games just due to player habits.

Merry Christmas!
Jan

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 32
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 12:18:02 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

a) Pelton, unless you correct me, it seems that you are including the Soviet soldiers killed by Finlandian, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian bullets, and you do not include the Finlandian, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian soldiers killed by Soviet bullets. Why? Look at your figures for the last quarter of 1942, that show the worst-ever ratio for the Red Army, even when their Uranus offensive almost vaporized two Romanian Armies.

b) According to Krivosheev, as much as 1 million of Soviet soldiers that were recorded as missed when surrounded, were drafted again to the Red Army when the Soviets liberated their territory.

If you combine those two facts, perhaps the historical casualty ratio is not the 6:1 that you claim.



B is 100% none historical.

In late July 1941 Stalin gave Order 270:

"Any one who surrenders should be regarded as a malicious deserter whos family will be arrested and shot. ect ect. Those falling into encirclement are to fight to the last otherwise there familys are to be deprived of all assistance.

In other words once your were pocketed as a russian soldier there was no going back

Pelton


Pelton, many pocketed Soviet soldiers were hidden in forests, marshes, mountains,… haystacks, whatever …and many incorporated themselves into partisan groups and later again to the Red Army. What Stalin might or might not have done to their families does not alter this fact.


I have visited the web sources you cite. This http://es.scribd.com/doc/59330786/Statistical-Tables-Eastern-Front-World-War-II-A-Comparison-of-Losses-Soviet-Sources-Are-Fraudulent-Because-they-Grossly-Understated-Their-Own-Los is interesting. They cite the figures that Glantz provide taken mostly from Krivosheev. But the webpage adds some pieces of “information” (pffffff). First, that Glantz is a propaganda agent of Stalinism (an “Obama-type regime”) and that Soviet casualties should be multiplied by four…mmm, 50 million casualties? Is that not an “unending manpower” myth?


(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 33
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 12:28:49 PM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
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Pelton, you say nothing about why you do not include the Axis minor allies in your calculations. Perhaps if you do that your 6:1 ratio in 1942 is no longer true.

Besides, as others have already pointed out, maybe the Soviet players can manage themselves without the Kharkov and Crimean catastrophes of 1942. You only can draw conclusions comparing historical versus game casualties if both players follow the historical plans and movements.

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 34
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 2:05:21 PM   
Lava


Posts: 1629
Joined: 2/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The game is setup to let the russians be unhistorical and the German side is fixed to historical results.


That was a design decision made obviously right from the start.

And I don't have a problem with that decision. The problem is that the Soviets have too much liberty and that has skewed the game into fantasy.

I believe the only way to get the game back to a rough equivalence (historically speaking) is to tie Sov morale with who holds cities. It is clumsy, but it is doable.

And I think something really needs to be done or this great game is going to fade into history well before it should, if it hasn't already.

Cheers... and Feliz Navidad!

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 35
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 2:17:44 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5805
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Turn 80 - 90 Trends
88 armaments captured.
93,000 manpower in pool +30,000
214,000 armaments in pool -130,000

Attacks——-Wins—-Losses———Ratio
51—————39———12————— 3.25 to 1

Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
———49———————45———4——–—-

Losses from turn 80 to 90
————————-Men————Guns———-Tanks——Planes
GHC—————–251,000————4,752———1,019———480
SHC-—————–424,000———–-7,532———3,563-——2,938

OOB difference from turn 80 to 90.

GHC————–—+77,000———+1000-——— +600———–(-50)
SHC-—————+100,000——–+7,500———+3,500——–+3,000

Ratio of dead is 1.7 to 1
Now that I have allot of data as I do with my game vs Hoooper ( one of the 2 games that helped nerf 1v1=2v1)
The Ratio was 2.9 to 1 when I was in forts and 2.6 to 1 when I was retreating during the blizzard.
So 1.05 increased loses to Germans attacking and defending. End of story the math just don't lie.


Turn 90 - 100 Trends
88 armaments captured.
244,000 armaments in pool +30,000

Attacks———Wins—-Losses———Ration
—61—————38———23—————62%

Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——11———————10———1——–—-

Losses from turn 90 to 100
————————-Men————Guns———-Tanks——Planes
GHC—————–227,000————4,361———–729———340
SHC-—————-487,000———–-7,856———2,884-——3,491
Ratio—————2.1 to 1————1.8 to 1———4 to 1—10 to 1
OOB difference from turn 90 to 100.

GHC————–—(-27,000)——(-525)-—— +1070———–(-523)
SHC-————–+183,000——–+8,000———+3,600——–+2,000


Turn 101 - 110 Trends
88 armaments captured.
460,000 armaments in pool

Attacks———Wins—-Losses
—18—————11———08

Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——14-———————12———2——–—-

Losses from turn 101 to 110
————————-Men————Guns———-Tanks——Planes
GHC—————–144,000————2,323———–500———204
SHC-—————317,000———–-6,119———1,900-——2,800
Ratio—————2.2 to 1————2.6 to 1———4 to 1—14 to 1
OOB difference from turn 101 to 110.

GHC————–—(-43,000)——(400)-—— +600———–(-54)
SHC-————–+380,000——–+8,000———+700——–+3,500


July 1943 to September 1943

Turn 110 - 120 Trends

Tempo 5 attacks per turn.

88 armaments captured.
534,000 armaments in pool
3,718,000 total German manpower. Breaking point of German army 2.3 million.

Attacks———Wins—-Losses
—049————–35———15—

Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——02-———————02———0——–—-

Losses from turn 110 to 120
————————-Men————Guns———-Tanks——Planes
GHC—————–151,000————3,421———–700———413
SHC-—————-328,000———–-5,811———2,000-——2,139
Ratio—————2.2 to 1————1.7 to 1———2.8 to 1—5.2 to 1
OOB difference from turn 110 to 120.

GHC————–—(-103,000)——1,619-—— +361———–+45
SHC-————–+303,000———-1,853——–+402———+1134

As can see seen from data Kamil is stepping up his attacks as he get more an more Infantry corp. I am defending behind the river line as best I can.

I have stopped most counter attacks because the ratio is 1.5 to 1 when I get a retreat, rout or shatter. Which is a joke, but is the design of the game.
Historically during 1943 the ratio was 4 to 1, but 2 by 3 has set ratio's to less then 1/2 of historical. So basicly as German player you can not counter attack at all, because there is no point. One of the many boxes the german side has been put into.

The bad:

My OOB has dropped 100,000 men and Kamils has increased by 303,000.
With no counter attacks my moral is slowly dropping.

The positive:

At this tempo it will take Kamil about 140 turns to break the German army and there are only 105 turns left in game. Kamil will need to atleast double the tempo to 10 attacks per turn. I will not counter attack unless I have to, the effects are only negitive.

Big plus for me is my gun count is going up and so is my armament pts in pool, 544,000. For the next 10 turns I am going to jack up Gun/AT/AA TOE to 100%.

Kamil's gun and tank counts did not increase much even at the slow tempo, hopefully the armament hit will has an effect if the tempo increases.

I am tring for a draw, thats why I moved behind the rivers during summer of 1943 and not try to hold them until summer of 1944. From looking at other games come 1944 the German army is so weak and the russian so strong that the Reds have no issue crossing them.

So basicly I am tring to conserve my manpower for as long as possible. Holding land is not important until 1945. I am tring to keep from getting ground down as long as possible.

I need to use what little space I have to my advantage.

Pelton

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Lava)
Post #: 36
RE: German child soldiers - 12/24/2011 2:30:02 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

It got worse and worse....






The same was true for the Russian side, if your not blindly following the Stalin myths. Millions of women servered in the Russian army in support roles. The Russians had old men and children servering also.

An open mind sees both sides not just one side.

You can't refute the facts.

80 million Germans
170 million Russians

Are you refuting this fact with Stalin myth's?

The combat Ratio from 42 to early 44 = 4.2 to 1

Are you refuting this fact or refuting it with more Stalin myths?

The facts are the facts

The Germans were bleeding the Russians dry by a 2 to 1 ratio based on population size and combat ratio's

The only thing that saved Russia was the Western allies.

Germany could not win a 2 front war, but could based 100% on facts and not myths win a 1 front war vs Russia.

Its very hard for poeple to accept this historical fact, because of the 45 years of Stalin propaganda that the world was spoon feed from 45 to 85.

Now that the wall has come down and historians can get past the myths to the facts, its more then clear that Russia could not have possibly taken on Germany alone.

It was a team effort of which Russia suffered the most by far. There was no way the Western allies could have defeated Germany alone and the same goes for Russia. ( other then the A-bomb, hehe)

The basic facts are the facts and can not be attacked on their merit.

But poeple will generally attack the messanger when they can't refute the facts.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/24/2011 2:33:38 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 37
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 2:34:41 PM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Pelton, you say nothing about why you do not include the Axis minor allies in your calculations. Perhaps if you do that your 6:1 ratio in 1942 is no longer true.

Besides, as others have already pointed out, maybe the Soviet players can manage themselves without the Kharkov and Crimean catastrophes of 1942. You only can draw conclusions comparing historical versus game casualties if both players follow the historical plans and movements.


You can also add in the minor allies if you like, but this only changes the yearly ratio by .2 to .4 depending on where you get your info.

Your still looking at a ratio better then 4 to 1. Even at 3 to 1 Germany was winning the war of atrition.

alfonso thats why I listed many sourses and did not cherry pick. we can all cherry pick a few odd ball things on any topic.

the majority of the data supports at least a 4 to 1 ratio from 42 to early 44 and russia's and germany population.

Pelton


< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/24/2011 2:46:57 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 38
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 2:43:25 PM   
Ron

 

Posts: 487
Joined: 6/6/2002
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Yeah WitE is hardly a simulation of historical WWII Eastern Front combat. It is a fantasy game on so many levels; I have shelved it for now. I think the final straw for me was reading the comments from Helpless defending the air aspect of the game saying there is nothing wrong. Along with logistics, if that isn't one of the biggest elephants in the room I don't know what is. Having to kindly ask my Russian opponent to please don't obliterate the Luftwaffe before the first blizzard is pathetic. There are other games out there that *do* try to simulate WWII combat, sadly WitE isn't one of them at this point. Disgruntled this morning? Yes! :o)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 39
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 2:57:39 PM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

Yeah WitE is hardly a simulation of historical WWII Eastern Front combat. It is a fantasy game on so many levels; I have shelved it for now. I think the final straw for me was reading the comments from Helpless defending the air aspect of the game saying there is nothing wrong. Along with logistics, if that isn't one of the biggest elephants in the room I don't know what is. Having to kindly ask my Russian opponent to please don't obliterate the Luftwaffe before the first blizzard is pathetic. There are other games out there that *do* try to simulate WWII combat, sadly WitE isn't one of them at this point. Disgruntled this morning? Yes! :o)



WitE is not that far of the mark.

The game has come a very long ways and in general 2 by 3 is tring to imporove the game.

My biggest fear is that allot of the ills of wite will get dumped into witw and the other projects 2 by 3 is working on.

The game engine is limited in what can be changed.

I beleive that wite is the best Eastern front game to date and the AI is one of the best of any game to-date.

WitE is in need of a major over-haul, but I just don't see it happening any time soon.

The early war part of the game is 95% right, but the mid and late war is far off the mark. I beleive it can be fixed, if 2 by 3 is willing to look over the historical data and the many AAR's that are getting to the mid and late war.

2 by 3 is not going to change anything if poeple do not point out the clear short comings of the game publicly.

This hurts the bottom line and thats what any company is all about in the end.

WitP is a very good historically based game, but it took years to get right. WitE is only a year old.

Hopefully it will keep getting better and none of the bad issues will not get put into witw.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/24/2011 3:00:12 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 40
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 3:22:31 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2156
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Status: offline
I don't know if I would go as far as Pelton to say the Western Allied invasion made the difference or not. With 1/3 of its troops committed to Italy and Western Europe, there is no question Germany was not able to deploy its forces like it wanted to against the Russians, but within that 1/3 there are some issues.

First, while the troops in Italy were typically first rate, many of those divisions in France were not. Their equipment was captured and this was also a location the Germans used more "unreliable" troops like captured Russian units who broke the first chance they got. While there were 10 panzer divisions in the west on the eve of Overlord, several had makeshift equipment that amounted to rebuilt French tanks and those formations would have simply not lasted long or been very effective on the eastern front.

The German defenses in the east were taking their toll of the Red army. T-34 life was measured in weeks. Rifle strength became more of a cronic issue as the war went along and at the end, it looked like the end of the Rocky 1 fight with the Russians being Rocky.

While having say 75% of the German troops available from the west (and south) to go to the eastern front, I don't know that it would have changed the result, but there is no question it would have had an effect. The key for the Germans for the most part was their tactics. Even if they had the additional troops, would they have had a different result compared to historical if they kept the same rigid tactics?

As far as other things for Russia, it has been in vogue to poo-poo the western allied contribution to the Russian war effort. There are a few areas where Allied support made a huge difference. First, is the huge pile of trucks that most people are aware of. Of just as much importance, but not really mentioned in many cases was the amount of food the Allies sent in the form of battlefield rations. The one thing the Russians could not move is the most productive areas of their country when it came to food production. Their food production during the war was understandibly terrible. The impact of this continued to be felt after the war because of the scorched earth tactics employed by both sides.

One last note on one of CannonFodder's 3 battles. You attack with 10k more men with no armor support at all, etc. You win the fight and the Germans lose nearly 75% of the sizeable amount of tanks there. This also looks like a 1:1 that became a 2:1, so extra casualties are in order for the Russians anyway, but you nuked close to 10% of the enemy manpower, close to 10% of his guns, and almost 75% of his tanks and that is an issue for the Russian?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 41
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 3:59:16 PM   
DTurtle

 

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From: Mannheim, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Klydon wrote:

One last note on one of CannonFodder's 3 battles. You attack with 10k more men with no armor support at all, etc. You win the fight and the Germans lose nearly 75% of the sizeable amount of tanks there. This also looks like a 1:1 that became a 2:1, so extra casualties are in order for the Russians anyway, but you nuked close to 10% of the enemy manpower, close to 10% of his guns, and almost 75% of his tanks and that is an issue for the Russian?

You completely missed the point of that battle (and the list of failed attacks that I posted): Currently, from '41 to the end of the blizzard (I have no info for '42 cause my first GC didn't get that far, and my second one is only on turn 5) the vast majority of losses caused by the Soviets are caused during the retreat phase - the combat/firing phases cause very small losses.
In that attack posted by Cannonfodder, 20 elements (121 men) were destroyed during combat and through air support. 360 elements (3621 men) were destroyed due to retreat. For the Soviets, 515 elements (4711 men) were destroyed through combat. If he had lost, that number would have grown a bit due to retreat losses. In addition, the Germans suffered 80 elements (396 men) damaged and 14 elements (125 men) disrupted. For the Soviets, 559 elements (4970 men) were damaged and 1565 elements (13530 men) were disrupted. If the attack had failed, the Soviet losses would have been even larger, while the German units would have been almost untouched (maybe 200 dead total).

Look at my screen shot of failed attacks: If you fail an attack as the Soviets (in '41 till the end of blizzard), you leave the German unit almost untouched. If you succeed, you will cause some losses during the summer, and large losses during the blizzard. Panzer units are especially vulnerable to losses, while infantry and mobile divisions aren't weakened very much.


< Message edited by DTurtle -- 12/24/2011 4:01:14 PM >

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 42
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 5:08:13 PM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Here is another interesting fact that gets over looked because of Stalin myths.
( Slaughterhouse:The handbook of the eastern front and When Titans Clashed)

The German army in 1939 was 4.5 million men and in 1942 June 1942 numbered 8.4 million men, bigger then the Russian army (5.3 million) by 3 million men.

Hitler only had about 3 million men on the eastern front.

So taking into account:

Russian Population 170 million
German Population 80 million

1942 combat ratio 6 to 1

German army 8.4 million
Russian army 5.4 million

If Hitler wanted to going by the numbers could have easly out numbered or atleast had equal odds on the russian front during 1942 to say nothing of 43.

Also German Tank forses had up graded to better weapons from 41 to 42 and Russian forses basicly had the same weapons.


Simply going by the historical data Stalins speech he gave in November of 1941 was a fairytale. Russia was not bleeding the German army, but in fact were the ones getting bleed to death.


Thats why in early November Stalin had put feelers out to see if Hitler would come to peace terms.

The more data I read the more it seems Manstein was right.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/24/2011 5:17:15 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to DTurtle)
Post #: 43
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 5:15:43 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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From: Back to Reality :(
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Pelton, something is missing in some of your comments about the Eastern Front (the statistical ones). Feel free to attach the pic below each time you mention some of your theories. You make good points but...

Cheers and Merry Christmas




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Hang on, is that it...? Are we on the ring...?? Ready???" -- Nürburgring Seven Second Ring King

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 44
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 5:21:56 PM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Pelton, something is missing in some of your comments about the Eastern Front (the statistical ones). Feel free to attach the pic below each time you mention some of your theories. You make good points but...

Cheers and Merry Christmas





It is historical.

The German army in 1939 was 4.5 million men and in 1942 June 1942 numbered 8.4 million men, bigger then the Russian army (5.3 million) by 3 million men.

Hitler only had about 3 million men on the eastern front.

So taking into account:

Russian Population 170 million
German Population 80 million

1942 combat ratio 6 to 1

German army 8.4 million
Russian army 5.4 million

Nothing new here, old news really.

Just most people take the eastern front myths spun by Stalin and friends as fact, until you just look at the facts.

You can read these and they have ( Slaughterhouse:The handbook of the eastern front and When Titans Clashed)

or follow my links above.

or simply look it up for yourself.

There is no question what the population size was and there is no question about the size of the 2 army's

There are some questions about los ratio, but I go with the low side of 4 to 1.

Simply looking at what we know and going with the min lose ratio germany could have easly taken out Russia if fighting 1 vs 1.

Germany had almost 2x the army.

1+1=2

Pelton

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 45
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 5:56:06 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It is historical.

The German army in 1939 was 4.5 million men and in 1942 June 1942 numbered 8.4 million men,
Pelton


The German Army in 1939 was 3.737.000 and in 1942 5.800.000

source: http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html

I hate to ask this...but...do you know the difference between Heer and Wehrmacht?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 46
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 7:15:03 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't know if I would go as far as Pelton to say the Western Allied invasion made the difference or not.


The invasion saved western Europe from being overrun by the Red Army. So it made a difference. Just not the one Pelton thinks.

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(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 47
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 7:24:46 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't know if I would go as far as Pelton to say the Western Allied invasion made the difference or not.


The invasion saved western Europe from being overrun by the Red Army. So it made a difference. Just not the one Pelton thinks.


So what are you questioning?

That the Russian population was 170 million?
That the German population was 80 million?

That the German army had 8.4 million men in 1942?
That the Russian army had 5.4 million men in 1942?

That the combat ratio was 4 to 1 + in 1942?

As always no data to refute my data on personal attacks. I am not thinking anything.

I know its hard to go against what you thought was true, but the facts are the facts.

Refute the facts.

Games should not be built on myths.

Pelton


< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/24/2011 7:27:40 PM >


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(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 48
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 8:24:17 PM   
pompack


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quote:

Games should not be built on myths


Now there is where I can actually agree with Pelton.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 49
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 8:57:38 PM   
barbarrossa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

That the combat ratio was 4 to 1 + in 1942?



Then why was the German summer '42 offensive confined to the south, and why were efforts to relieve the 6th Army at Stalingrad a failure? Perhaps it was 4 to 1 in specific locations of concentration but over the whole of the front???

Amazing.

But don't worry, Kampfgruppe Steiner will set everything right, you'll see.





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(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 50
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 10:18:25 PM   
randallw

 

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Once the Germans moved east ( in 1941 ) the bulk of the army was deployed there, even into 1944 and 1945.

The German 6th Army was defeated ( Jan-Feb 1943 ) while no Allied troops were engaging Axis troops on mainland Western Europe.

The last major German offensive in the East ( Citadel ),which basically ruined their tank fleet for months, occurred in the same month that they were defending Sicily from invasion, using just two divisions of their own to begin with ( Italians the rest ), then they sent two more to help out.

Of course, since the Germans won the war of attrition in the east, none of this quite exactly happened; it's just Stalinist propaganda.


< Message edited by randallw -- 12/24/2011 10:20:49 PM >

(in reply to barbarrossa)
Post #: 51
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 10:20:23 PM   
amatteucci

 

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Soviet and German losses 1941-1944 (KIA and died of wound or accidents, no MIA, no WIA, no POW)    
Data collected from Krivosheev and Overmans.    
N.B. German allies' losses not included!   
       
                   
               USSR    Germany  Loss ratio       
1941                    
3rd quarter    430578    185198    2.3:1       
4th quarter    371613    117297    3.2:1       
TOTAL          802191    302495    2.7:1       
                  
1942                    
1st quarter    493660    136396    3.6:1       
2nd quarter    314443     90198    3.5:1       
3rd quarter    539728    145264    3.7:1       
4th quarter    395164    134957    2.9:1       
TOTAL         1742995    506815    3.4:1       
                  
1943                    
1st quarter    582586    294706    2.0:1       
2nd quarter    169452     48132    3.5:1       
3rd quarter    688142    187858    3.7:1       
4th quarter    504443    169957    3.0:1       
TOTAL         1944623    700653    2.8:1       
                  
1944                    
1st quarter    518098    228419    2.3:1       
2nd quarter    305881    263706    1.2:1       
3rd quarter    465325    467907    1.0:1       
4th quarter    307024    222914    1.4:1       
TOTAL         1596328   1182946    1.3:1    


(in reply to barbarrossa)
Post #: 52
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 10:34:18 PM   
amatteucci

 

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For those interested, here are the tables from which I collected the figures listed in the above message.

First Krivosheev:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to amatteucci)
Post #: 53
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 10:35:04 PM   
amatteucci

 

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...then Overmans:






Attachment (1)

(in reply to amatteucci)
Post #: 54
RE: Game engine and combat ratio need and over haul. - 12/24/2011 11:55:57 PM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Pelton, something is missing in some of your comments about the Eastern Front (the statistical ones). Feel free to attach the pic below each time you mention some of your theories. You make good points but...

Cheers and Merry Christmas





It is historical.

The German army in 1939 was 4.5 million men and in 1942 June 1942 numbered 8.4 million men, bigger then the Russian army (5.3 million) by 3 million men.

Hitler only had about 3 million men on the eastern front.

So taking into account:

Russian Population 170 million
German Population 80 million

1942 combat ratio 6 to 1

German army 8.4 million
Russian army 5.4 million

Nothing new here, old news really.

Just most people take the eastern front myths spun by Stalin and friends as fact, until you just look at the facts.

You can read these and they have ( Slaughterhouse:The handbook of the eastern front and When Titans Clashed)

or follow my links above.

or simply look it up for yourself.

There is no question what the population size was and there is no question about the size of the 2 army's

There are some questions about los ratio, but I go with the low side of 4 to 1.

Simply looking at what we know and going with the min lose ratio germany could have easly taken out Russia if fighting 1 vs 1.

Germany had almost 2x the army.

1+1=2

Pelton


Not even getting into a numbers game with you (because it is pointless, you don't listen).. Just consider this... Who was pushing who aside in the summer of 1943, before any european mainland invasion? Who needed help from their allies to secure the flanks of operations against, amongst others, Stalingrad? You think German officers wanted that or did they HAVE TO?

Don't give me the "Stalin" propaganda bull either... The Soviets suffered very heavily, yes... But they were not being beaten...

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(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 55
RE: German child soldiers - 12/24/2011 11:59:06 PM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

It got worse and worse....






The same was true for the Russian side, if your not blindly following the Stalin myths. Millions of women servered in the Russian army in support roles. The Russians had old men and children servering also.

An open mind sees both sides not just one side.

You can't refute the facts.

80 million Germans
170 million Russians

Are you refuting this fact with Stalin myth's?

The combat Ratio from 42 to early 44 = 4.2 to 1

Are you refuting this fact or refuting it with more Stalin myths?

The facts are the facts

The Germans were bleeding the Russians dry by a 2 to 1 ratio based on population size and combat ratio's

The only thing that saved Russia was the Western allies.

Germany could not win a 2 front war, but could based 100% on facts and not myths win a 1 front war vs Russia.

Its very hard for poeple to accept this historical fact, because of the 45 years of Stalin propaganda that the world was spoon feed from 45 to 85.

Now that the wall has come down and historians can get past the myths to the facts, its more then clear that Russia could not have possibly taken on Germany alone.

It was a team effort of which Russia suffered the most by far. There was no way the Western allies could have defeated Germany alone and the same goes for Russia. ( other then the A-bomb, hehe)

The basic facts are the facts and can not be attacked on their merit.

But poeple will generally attack the messanger when they can't refute the facts.

Pelton


Chinese, Soviets, Japanese, Germans.. they all used child soldiers.. I never said it was just the Germans... It was you who was talking about the soviet army being build of old men, women, children...

Also, the soviet willingness to have women in combat situations (and the germans refusing to let women do combat) is another reason to put your money on the soviet army....

Pelton, one day you will have to wake up and look beyond the bullshit...

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 56
RE: German child soldiers - 12/25/2011 1:18:03 AM   
Aurelian

 

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June 41 Axis 3,767,000 (3,117,000 German.) 900,000 in West. Soviet 2,680,000 in theater 5,500,000 overall.

June 42 Axis 3,720,000 (2,690,000 German.) 80% in the East. Soviet 5,313,000.

July 43 Axis 3,993,000 (3,483,000 German.) 63% in the East. Soviet 6,724,000.

June 44 Axis 3.370,000 (2,520,000 German.) 62% in the East. Soviet 6,425,000

Jan 45 Axis 2,330,000 (2,230,000 German.) 60% in the East. Soviet 6,532,000

April 45 German 1,960,000. Soviet 6,410,000

Slaughterhouse: The Handbook of the Eastern Front.

Includes the following: Left to their own devices, the Soviets might of taken 12-18 months longer to defeat the Wehrmacht; the ultimate result would probably have been the same, except the Soviet soldiers could of waded at France's Atlantic beaches.

And what "Stalinist propaganda."? Since a majority of history of the Russian front was based on Western/German records.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 12/25/2011 1:21:19 AM >

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Post #: 57
RE: German child soldiers - 12/25/2011 1:42:47 AM   
Marquo


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Operation Bagration was launched on June, 22 1944, just 16 days after D-Day. Army Group Centre was very virtually annhilated, with ~ 400,000 overall casualties. The Soviets did not need the West to win, and had essentially won before the Allied Armies landed in France.

The proAxis numbers and manipulations of data posted here are but vain, wistful attempts by a minority of disgruntled Axis players to deflect attention from poor playing and inability to as of yet find tactics/stratregies to win. This is the mark of a great game: the key to winning is not easily determined.The psychic energy spent bashing this game in frustration could be put to better use: solve the puzzle instead of arguing for changes so one can win without thinking anymore.

BTW, playing many games poorly is not as good as playing a few well.

Happy Holidays,

Marquo



< Message edited by Marquo -- 12/25/2011 1:44:25 AM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 58
RE: German child soldiers - 12/25/2011 2:05:20 AM   
Kamil

 

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I think discussion went off topic a bit. In my opinion all changes needs to be applied carefully, but the sooner high ROF elements get nerfed the better. It unbalances game in Soviet favour. Once they start spawning corps size units German losses are mounting really fast, and counter-attacking gets pointless.


btw. I strongly disagree with opinion, that Soviet Union would have defeated Germany if they were fighting only on 1 front, but I think it should be discussed in different thread.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 59
RE: German child soldiers - 12/25/2011 2:17:29 AM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Operation Bagration was launched on June, 22 1944, just 16 days after D-Day. Army Group Centre was very virtually annhilated, with ~ 400,000 overall casualties. The Soviets did not need the West to win, and had essentially won before the Allied Armies landed in France.

The proAxis numbers and manipulations of data posted here are but vain, wistful attempts by a minority of disgruntled Axis players to deflect attention from poor playing and inability to as of yet find tactics/stratregies to win. This is the mark of a great game: the key to winning is not easily determined.The psychic energy spent bashing this game in frustration could be put to better use: solve the puzzle instead of arguing for changes so one can win without thinking anymore.

BTW, playing many games poorly is not as good as playing a few well.

Happy Holidays,

Marquo





Several million germans were on the western front and close to another in the Med.



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Marquo)
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