Matrix Games Forums

To End All Wars Releasing on Steam! Slitherine is recruiting: Programmers requiredPandora: Eclipse of Nashira gets release dateCommunity impressions of To End All WarsAgeod's To End All Wars is now availableTo End All Wars is now available!Deal of the Week: Field of GloryTo End All Wars: Video, AAR and Interview!Ageod's To End All Wars: Video, AAR and Interview!To End All Wars: Artillery
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

How is research calculated?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds Series >> How is research calculated? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
How is research calculated? - 12/18/2011 9:27:16 PM   
hondo1375


Posts: 155
Joined: 3/12/2005
From: London, UK
Status: offline

Hi, could someone take a look at this screenshot and explain to me how these numbers are calculated? From how I understand it from the manual, some of the numbers don't add up. Any help appreciated!








Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/18/2011 9:53:20 PM   
Raap

 

Posts: 392
Joined: 1/12/2011
Status: offline
Your total research capacity is at a ratio of 38:26:38 = 102.
Your potential is 691K+40%( From democracy and Human race) = 976K. 976K/102=9.6.

Weapons field is thus 38*9.6 + bonuses( 50%), giving us 547K.
Energy field is 26*9.6 with no bonuses, giving us 250K.
HighTech field is 38*9.6*1.34( 34% bonus)= 488K.

That's how I thought it would be, but I'm not entirely sure of when the different( i.e. race/governmenttype vs weapon/energy/hightech) bonuses are applied. Obviously my numbers didn't quite reach the ones on your screenshot, but maybe you have additional bonus stuff that just doesn't show for some reason?

(in reply to hondo1375)
Post #: 2
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 2:17:48 AM   
Gelatinous Cube


Posts: 695
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline
I was confused at first by the way the two bottom lines are displayed--thinking that the bottom row was my actual output and that the top for was my POTENTIAL output. Instead, it all became clear when I realized I had massively overbuilt my research stations and that the top number was my OUTPUT and the bottom number is my OUTPUT ADJUSTED FOR WASTE.

In your picture, it is done very efficiently--you are putting out your maximum amount, and it is adjusted for bonuses. In my picture, the top number would have been massive and the bottom number smaller.

< Message edited by Gelatinous Cube -- 12/19/2011 2:20:28 AM >


_____________________________

Can Poland Into Space?

(in reply to Raap)
Post #: 3
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 2:57:36 AM   
Nedrear


Posts: 698
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline
They add up. You forgot the 10% of the leader at weapons tech etc...

Simply put:

The limit proves to all at once. Meaning a maximum of 720k is maximum of 720k WITHOUT bonuses. If you build more labs it will not change the fact that you don't have more scientists. Empty labs research bad...

Therefore if you got 420 140 280 in research - without bonuses - only 720k in a percentage will be used. As of now it would be 1/2 goes to 420, 1/6 goes to 140 and 2/6 goes to 280. Result: 360 in weapons, 120 in energy and 240 in high-tech. After that add the bonuses. Thats your reasearch!
If you are pushing the research limit, while having an unbalanced amount of research like above 420, 140 and 280 you will see they are 'nerfed' the percentage amount they got.

_____________________________

One Thread To Guide Them All

"Nothing incorporeal wields such power as a word. Though it is the weapon of the smart and cunning it alas needs the same to prevail."

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)
Post #: 4
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 3:10:23 AM   
Spacecadet

 

Posts: 1546
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

I was confused at first by the way the two bottom lines are displayed--thinking that the bottom row was my actual output and that the top for was my POTENTIAL output. Instead, it all became clear when I realized I had massively overbuilt my research stations and that the top number was my OUTPUT and the bottom number is my OUTPUT ADJUSTED FOR WASTE.

In your picture, it is done very efficiently--you are putting out your maximum amount, and it is adjusted for bonuses. In my picture, the top number would have been massive and the bottom number smaller.


The easiest way to look at it is the top number (Total Research Capacity) is the maximum that will be applied to each school of research.
The bottom number is what your Research Stations and Scientists are actually capable of producing.

In practice, it is usually quite a challenge to reach the Total Research Capacity for your Empire - at least until the later stages of a game.





(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)
Post #: 5
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 4:14:25 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline
Actually, I think there is a small bug in the math. The additive factors are being multiplied by each other instead of adding on. For example, the Total Research Capacity is 1020 which is the number of labs you built. The Research Potential is 993=691x1.25x1.15. I would think the Research Potential would be 972=(691)+(0.25x691)+(0.15x691). This same potential small bug of multiplying additive factors instead of adding is duplicated in the other additive factors. Here is the math for all three ACTUAL OUTPUTS:

All the labs you built 1020 (380+260+380)
TOTAL RESEARCH CAPABILITY 993 (691x1.25x1.15).
Weapons 570 (993x380/1020)(1.1x1.4)
Energy 253 (993x260/1020)
High Tech 496 (993x380/1020)(1.34)

If you get past the math, here it is in regular words.., the number of labs you should build [Total Research Capacity] should ALWAYS equal or exceed your Total Empire Research Capacity multiplied by all of you Empire factors that are in GREEN BOLD type. The bonuses in tiny print below the GREEN BOLD ones are tacked on in calculating the pink line (Actual Output).

So as you can see, the GREEN BOLD (Gov’t and Race) have an enormous impact on Research, and Research is an ENORMOUS factor in Legends. So if you find you are kicking the AI’s butt all over the place in Research, well, select a dumber race with a nonResearch friendly government. As you know, this means the “warrior type civs” are better suited as your civ to give the AI yet another chance to beat you.

(in reply to Spacecadet)
Post #: 6
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 4:23:12 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline
Space Cadet, it should never be a challenge to reach your Research potential. As you soon as you start your game, pause it. Go into your Home Space Port and tack on all the labs you need to slightly exceed your present potential. As the game moves on and you are able to take advantage of other Research bonuses.., well, take advantage of them. You can always delete the Labs in your Home port if you want to goof with the numbers to take advantage of the Research advantages you will encounter.

I just realized that this can only be done if you make your own designs, such as I do. If you leave everything on auto (which massively reduces the fun factor), then YES, it can be a slight challenge to reach your Research potential.

Good luck in your journey.

< Message edited by balto -- 12/19/2011 4:27:51 AM >

(in reply to balto)
Post #: 7
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 4:34:53 AM   
Nedrear


Posts: 698
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline
You got 1020 potential research with a maximum of 691.

Therefore your weapon research gets 38/102x691 of it, bringing it to 257.43.

This is multiplied by the chain of 1.15x1.25x1.1x1.4 and reaches 569.88.



It's math boys. Learning by doing!

< Message edited by Nedrear -- 12/19/2011 4:41:19 AM >


_____________________________

One Thread To Guide Them All

"Nothing incorporeal wields such power as a word. Though it is the weapon of the smart and cunning it alas needs the same to prevail."

(in reply to balto)
Post #: 8
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 9:45:38 AM   
hondo1375


Posts: 155
Joined: 3/12/2005
From: London, UK
Status: offline
Thanks for all the input guys: I finally understand it now! It looks like I don't need to build any labs for a while (unless I want to change the mix of course) which is the question I was trying to answer by going to that screen in the first place!

(in reply to hondo1375)
Post #: 9
RE: How is research calculated? - 12/19/2011 2:46:54 PM   
Spacecadet

 

Posts: 1546
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Space Cadet, it should never be a challenge to reach your Research potential. As you soon as you start your game, pause it. Go into your Home Space Port and tack on all the labs you need to slightly exceed your present potential. As the game moves on and you are able to take advantage of other Research bonuses.., well, take advantage of them. You can always delete the Labs in your Home port if you want to goof with the numbers to take advantage of the Research advantages you will encounter.

I just realized that this can only be done if you make your own designs, such as I do. If you leave everything on auto (which massively reduces the fun factor), then YES, it can be a slight challenge to reach your Research potential.

Good luck in your journey.


Sorry, my mistake.

I meant fulfilling your Actual Output - generally a lot of your research points go unused.


(in reply to balto)
Post #: 10
Patch affecting research or Home Colony inportance? - 3/4/2012 3:15:21 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline
I am thinking of starting up this gem again. I read through the latest patch and I think get most of it. Has the research been affected the patch?

Also, I did everything manual, so I never figured out how to use the Home Colony thing to my benefit (never could figure out auto Fleet stances), so I just never cared what it was. I think I am seeing references to the Home Planet in the patch notes. Has the Patch increased the importance of Home Colony assignment or is it still kind of something for people who are smart enough to do the Auto Fleet commands.

(in reply to hondo1375)
Post #: 11
RE: How is research calculated? - 3/4/2012 4:42:15 AM   
adecoy95


Posts: 408
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

I was confused at first by the way the two bottom lines are displayed--thinking that the bottom row was my actual output and that the top for was my POTENTIAL output. Instead, it all became clear when I realized I had massively overbuilt my research stations and that the top number was my OUTPUT and the bottom number is my OUTPUT ADJUSTED FOR WASTE.

In your picture, it is done very efficiently--you are putting out your maximum amount, and it is adjusted for bonuses. In my picture, the top number would have been massive and the bottom number smaller.


The easiest way to look at it is the top number (Total Research Capacity) is the maximum that will be applied to each school of research.
The bottom number is what your Research Stations and Scientists are actually capable of producing.

In practice, it is usually quite a challenge to reach the Total Research Capacity for your Empire - at least until the later stages of a game.







just build research modules in your starports, make them custom, usually i build excess research stations in the starport on the homeworld. its easy, and will give you more than enough research for the early game/long term. not really sure why your having trouble getting your full research


< Message edited by adecoy95 -- 3/4/2012 4:48:54 AM >

(in reply to Spacecadet)
Post #: 12
RE: How is research calculated? - 3/4/2012 2:06:57 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 698
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline
Are you sure he will read your answer AFTER 3 months and still need it?

Back to the current question here:

The research did not change in the patches. If you mean switching to legends, my guide applies there as well.

Fleets and their stances got a lot of tweaking in the expansion and patches, but are not perfect. It is a complex matter further still. Just use the guide section of the war room. Follow my signature.

_____________________________

One Thread To Guide Them All

"Nothing incorporeal wields such power as a word. Though it is the weapon of the smart and cunning it alas needs the same to prevail."

(in reply to adecoy95)
Post #: 13
RE: How is research calculated? - 3/5/2012 6:45:20 AM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 445
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline
The problem with the research screen is presentation. The math is simple. But by cramming in the adjusted max and the bonuses into the second line they obfuscate the process. It's daft. Add a bottom line. If I did my math like this in college I would have got a failing grade for not showing my work.

In summary: the research screen is stoopid.

(in reply to Nedrear)
Post #: 14
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 11:54:31 AM   
georgioz

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 5/28/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

If you get past the math, here it is in regular words.., the number of labs you should build [Total Research Capacity] should ALWAYS equal or exceed your Total Empire Research Capacity multiplied by all of you Empire factors that are in GREEN BOLD type. The bonuses in tiny print below the GREEN BOLD ones are tacked on in calculating the pink line (Actual Output).




Hi, I am a new player and I really appreciate this post. However I still have some questions - is the response quoted correct? Should it really read [Total Research Capacity] as opposed to [Actual Output]? If it really is correct what is Actual Output good for? It clearly exceeds Research Potential (1319 vs 1020) so what's the deal?

I also have some additional questions: is it really so that the only effect of scientist traits and research location trait is to increase Actual Output - meaning that I have to build less research labs in Spaceports/Research Stations for that particular category? Thanks.

(in reply to balto)
Post #: 15
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 12:14:49 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 3655
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline
As far as I remember and understand.

Always compare the white (nonmarked) value to the top right capacity to decide if you have enough labs. The sum of the three being at least the total capacity top right.

All multipliers are after this, and for each the best site when it comes to location+scientist is used. And then of course race, government, special ruins, wonders, and whatever are also added.

What counts for research speed is only the "actual output" values which is the result of the calculation.


(in reply to georgioz)
Post #: 16
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 12:45:27 PM   
georgioz

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 5/28/2014
Status: offline
All right guys, I dissasembled it based on some other sticky thread that had a nice excel sheet there. I am not allowed to post images/links yet so this just go here: i.imgur.com/bcd0MPn.png

So this is how it works:

1) Your [Total Research Capacity] should always be exceeding or equal your research potential. In practice this is all that you need to know
2) Optional: your ration between Weapons/Energy/HighTech labs together with some additional bonuses determines how your total research will be spread out. Your actual "base" research value however is calculated from [Research Potential]. Example: base Weapons research = 380/1200*691 = 257 (rounded).
3) Calculate % global bonus by multiplying all global bonuses. Round it. In our example it is: 1.15 [race] x 1.25 [government] = 1.44
4) Calculate % research area bonuses by multiplying all area bonuses. The only exception is Location and Scientist bonus that is just added. So for example for Weapons we have: 1.1 [leader] x 1.4 [research facility] = 1.54
5) Multiply global and local bonuses and round them. In example of Weapons it goes like this: 1.44 x 1.54 = 2,126
6) Multiply total % multiplier (5) for each area by "base" research in that area (2). Example: Weapons = 2,126 x 257 = 570

< Message edited by georgioz -- 5/28/2014 1:47:04 PM >

(in reply to georgioz)
Post #: 17
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 12:53:08 PM   
joeyeti


Posts: 247
Joined: 2/28/2012
Status: offline
Hey guys, if the below helps, feel free to use it :)
Please note the Wiki is largely incomplete and needs a lot of info added...

http://www.distant-worlds.wikispot.org/Research_and_Technology

< Message edited by joeyeti -- 5/28/2014 1:53:29 PM >


_____________________________

Joe

(in reply to georgioz)
Post #: 18
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 1:19:01 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1470
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
You know, if some people here were willing to populate the Wiki after mining the forum, it could be a lot more useful for the Guide to Guides than linking to posts.

BTW don't look at me! (real life, a few forum posts and an AAR are as much as I can manage)

(in reply to joeyeti)
Post #: 19
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 1:29:07 PM   
joeyeti


Posts: 247
Joined: 2/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

You know, if some people here were willing to populate the Wiki after mining the forum, it could be a lot more useful for the Guide to Guides than linking to posts.

BTW don't look at me! (real life, a few forum posts and an AAR are as much as I can manage)

Yeah, don't tell me :)
My own life and other projects are precisely why the Wiki is so slow-going... Currently I have the HighTech tech tree screenshot images waiting for me in order to type them into the Tech Tree wiki page (the Weapons and Energy trees are done already). And there are many pages on the wiki that need to be populated in order for it to function as a wiki in the first place...

True, this is somewhat duplicating the manual, but there are many more bits and pieces that the manual or the Galactopedia do not cover...

_____________________________

Joe

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 20
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 1:42:55 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1470
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
And even better I see someone could mod the Galactopedia now as well ... !

(in reply to joeyeti)
Post #: 21
RE: How is research calculated? - 5/28/2014 5:48:40 PM   
georgioz

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 5/28/2014
Status: offline
Ah, thanks guys - especially to joeyeti. Believe me or not, it did not come to my mind to google for Distant Worlds wiki, silly me. That wiki post explains things well, thanks again.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 22
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds Series >> How is research calculated? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.094