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Chir River 42-43

 
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Chir River 42-43 - 12/17/2011 8:31:34 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		Looking over the posts about the Command Ops East Front game, I came across some quotes about the battles that gave me thoughts about a random campaign.

quote:

5) General Balck's comment about the levels of training:

"On both sides newly established and poorly equipped formations were thrown into the fray. On the German side there were the Luftwaffen field divisions. After a few days they were gone - finished - in spite of good mechanical equipment. Their training left everything to be desired, and they had no experienced leaders. They were a creation of Hermann Göring, a creation which had no sound military foundation - the rank and file paid with their lives for this absurdity.
On the Russian side the tank crews, particularly Motorized Corps, had hardly any training. This shortcoming was one of the essential reasons for the German victory on 19 December."

Co-ordination:

"The fighting on the Chir river was made easier by the methods adopted by the command of the Russian Fifth Tank Army. They sent their various corps into battle without co-ordinating the timing of their attacks, and without the co-ordination of the numerous infantry divisions. Thus 11 Panzer Division was enabled to smash one corps after the other, until the hitting power of the Fifth Tank Army had been weakened to such an extent that it was possible for the Division to withdraw and start the game all over again with another Russian Tank Army."


We have Luftwaffe troops and I suppose everything else. We don't have many Soviet campaigns and my idea would be for an easy start for the Soviet player with increasing difficulty at the end.

Anyone familiar with this that can point me to what units would be in these battles? I'm not up on East Front stuff and don't have a library.

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/17/2011 11:17:31 PM   
Rick

 

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I agree, it would be nice to have some more Russian Random Campaigns.

Thanks
Rick

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 4:04:34 AM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		Dates would be good.

Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 4:39:54 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
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Status: online 		I'll have to do more research but this is the game

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2983151

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 6:44:05 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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Status: offline 		The thread you linked talks about the Soviet counterattack in the winter months of 1942 and the first part of the year in 1943.

A more fluid action, IMO, with much more armored conflict would be the opening moves of the Soviet offensive at Khar'kov in June 1942. Either way, I can supply the units involved if you are interested in this action.

Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 2:00:30 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		From the PCOWS manual, Historical Notes section

quote:

Hitler demanded that Sixth Army stand in place while the Germans stabilized their
front along the Chir River, some fifty or so miles to the west of the pocket. This
decision to hold 6th Army in place was based on Hitler still convincing himself that
the Soviets were weak and this was but a last gasp offensive; all the Germans needed
to do was form a counterattack force to relieve the Stalingrad pocket. In Hitler’s mind,
the Germans could then commence with the re-conquest of the Caucasus come the
spring. However, almost immediately upon encirclement, Sixth Army’s supply situation
was desperate. Goering’s terrifically incompetent promise to Hitler that his Luftwaffe
could supply Sixth Army with all it needed by air was all Hitler needed to cement his
decision to order the Sixth to hold. General von Paulus, commander of Sixth Army, was
a dutiful general who could not bend Hitler’s orders the way other German generals
did; instead of planning an immediate breakout, Paulus had his men fortify their
positions and wait for relief.


Basically I can use OWS maps and TOE and continue the campaign past Winter.

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 4:30:16 PM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Anyone familiar with this that can point me to what units would be in these battles? I'm not up on East Front stuff and don't have a library.

I think I can help. I accumulated quite a library/set of resources over the past year doing scenarios for War in the East. I assume you want to kick off the Soviet campaign at the start of Operation Uranus (19 Nov 42) and end it at/about the culmination of Operation Winter Storm? Or later?

v/r

bcgames

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 5:01:00 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		We already have the OWS campaign from either side and a random setup for the 29th and 7th Tank Corps. I was just looking for ideas for other Soviet tank corps to flesh out the campaign choices. Ideally we would have a long campaign, as you suggest, and shorter ones for just one operation. Reading the quote in the first post above, I thought of a 5th Tank Corps campaign where the player gets green forces against a green LW/Panzer force, and the challenge is to survive long enough to gain promotions and medals for the harder battles later on (against whatever historical German division was there). The quote states that lack of coordination was a downfall for the Soviets. Can the player do better than historical?

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 5:20:35 PM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I thought of a 5th Tank Corps campaign where the player gets green forces against a green LW/Panzer force, and the challenge is to survive long enough to gain promotions and medals for the harder battles later on (against whatever historical German division was there).

O.K. Let me take a look at what I've got.

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 5:42:48 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
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Status: online 		This site mentions the 5th Tank Army pinning the 48th Pz Corps on the Chir

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/battles/operationwinterstorm.htm

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 5:48:57 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		Here is a Memoir 44 scenario with some background. The bibliography lists Panzer Command, Victory Games, 1984

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=1762

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 6:05:56 PM   
bcgames


Posts: 1140
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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Thanks. Once I figured out what outfit you were talking about the rest was cake. I should have an OB put together shortly.

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 6:12:49 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		I've seen Mr. Sterrett hanging around here and elsewhere.

quote:

In “A Report on Soviet tactics” James Sterrett draws on Glantz (and others) in assessing von Mellenthin’s Panzer Battles:

Operational art, and the wider view it promotes, has not always been well understood in the West (its existence was denied until the mid-1970s). One of the better examples of the this Western blindness, and of the difference between Operational Art and Tactics, is provided by the blindness evident in von Mellenthin’s book Panzer Battles and its famed descriptions of the 48th Panzer Corps’s defense of the Chir River line against the Soviet 5th Tank Army. 48th Panzer’s tactical successes against the half-strength 5th Tank Army are well-described in the book. What is not explained is of greater importance. 48th Panzer’s tactical successes must be seen against 5th Tank Army’s mission: pinning 48th Panzer Corps so that it could not interefere with the Middle Don Operation. That operation was a success, with operational results: 49 Axis divisions wiped out, the the Italian 8th Army and Army Detachment Hollidt shattered, and the Axis driven from the middle Don, in significant part because 48th Panzer Corps was very successfully fighting the wrong battle. Again: Tactics is battle-fighting; Operational Art is arranging the battles to achieve a strategic goal.


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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 6:53:32 PM   
bcgames


Posts: 1140
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Here's the first cut at the German OB:

Battle for the Chir River, 7-22 December 1942:

XXXXVIII Panzer Corps (elements)

7th Luftwaffe Division (Activated 10/42 from Luftwaffe admin personnel)
13th Jaeger Regiment (1 or 2 bns)**
14th Jaeger Regiment (1 or 2 bns)**
?? Artillery Battalion
?? Reconnaissance Company
7th Antitank Battalion
7th Flak Battalion

** 7th Luftwaffe Division only had a total of three infantry battalions split between two regiments.

336th Infantry Division (Wave 14, captured equipment, occupation duty)
685th Infantry Regiment
686th Infantry Regiment
687th Infantry Regiment
336th Artillery Regiment
336th Reconnaissance Battalion
336th Engineer Battalion

11th Panzer Division
11th Panzer Regiment (2 bns) (in position)
110th Panzer Grenadier Regiment (arrives Chir area: 7 Dec 42)
111th Panzer Grenadier Regiment (arrives Chir area: 7 Dec 42)
119th Artillery Regiment
11th Reconnaissance Battalion
277th Anti-aircraft Battalion
61st Anti-tank Battalion
209th Engineer Battalion




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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 7:00:10 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		That's more than I thought you were giving me. I also realize that I am confusing the 5th Tank Army and the 5th Tank Corps.

The next questions is: what AFVs and guns would these have?

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 7:11:56 PM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
That's more than I thought you were giving me.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I also realize that I am confusing the 5th Tank Army and the 5th Tank Corps.

I can give you an OB for 5th Tank Army if that's what you want.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
The next questions is: what AFVs and guns would these have?

By TOE? Or present/operational? I can answer by TOE for 11th Pz, maybe also for 336th and 7th Luftwaffe. Present/operational--no can do.

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 7:21:10 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		Good thing. As you can tell I am not that versed in terms. Looks like a German Corps is like a Soviet Army. But for PC we need the lower level, battalion, company and platoon. TOE is what we need.

I've not read as much on this as others have so I'm still not sure who the Soviet 5th Tank Corps was up against. The 11th PZ was bouncing around the area as needed but I'm not sure they faced the 5th.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 7:45:46 PM   
Rick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Good thing. As you can tell I am not that versed in terms. Looks like a German Corps is like a Soviet Army. But for PC we need the lower level, battalion, company and platoon. TOE is what we need.

I've not read as much on this as others have so I'm still not sure who the Soviet 5th Tank Corps was up against. The 11th PZ was bouncing around the area as needed but I'm not sure they faced the 5th.


for a Random Campaign, you could set up presets that would have units from 11th Pz and units from 336th and Luftwaffe units, I think.

Thanks
rick

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 8:31:15 PM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Looks like a German Corps is like a Soviet Army.

In a way, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
But for PC we need the lower level, battalion, company and platoon. TOE is what we need.

Let me make sure I know what you want. Here's what these terms mean to me:

1. Order of Battle (OB) means stuff like (I Platoon/II Company/II Battalion/11th Panzer Regiment/11th Panzer Division/XXXXVIII Panzer Corps/Army Group Don--essentially the chain-of-commands/units/organizations involved in the battle (from platoon level to Army Group in this example).

2. Table of Organization & Equipment (TOE). Every unit in the chain-of-command listed above is based on a TOE. A TOE is a generic organization for a type unit (lt. tank platoon, Mdm. artillery battery, mess kit repair company, etc.). It lists the personnel and equipment these organization types are authorized to have. Authorized does not me they have it; it means they are authorized to submit requisitions up to the stated strength in the TOE. But that doesn't mean they will get it...depends on priorities and availability with the supply system...IOW it is a theoretical number.

3. Present (on-hand) and operational is what a unit/organization actually has present in the field as far as personnel and equipment. The TOE may say my tank platoon is authorized 5 Panther tanks but in fact I may only have two Pz IIIjs and two broken down Pz IVhs. So I have 4 tanks present/2 operational--none of them Panthers.

With that said, I think you want items 1 and 2 above. I can provide this data with some assurance of accuracy. However, I cannot put units below division level on a map with any degree of historical accuracy with regards to the Chir battles. Lage Ost maps only get you down to division level. Unit placement and item 3 require access to German archives and a couple months of research and some zerr gut deutsch. The stage coach will only take me to Kansas City.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I've not read as much on this as others have so I'm still not sure who the Soviet 5th Tank Corps was up against. The 11th PZ was bouncing around the area as needed but I'm not sure they faced the 5th.

The 11th PzD definitely faced the 1st Tank Corps from the very start. If you want to do a Soviet Corps type campaign from 5th Tank Army, then I would go with the 1st Tank Corps. Other than two additional tank brigades, the rest of 5th Tank Army was infantry divisions (Guards and regular).

Your thoughts?

v/r

bcgames

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 10:32:39 PM   
bcgames


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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Here's a quick sketch of the battle area, the disposition of German forces, and the "Phase I" activities:



On the left in the 3rd Romanian Army's AO was the 8th LW Division. It was attacked from both flanks on the 18th of December.

In the center and right are elements of the 48th Panzer Corps/4th Panzer Army with two divisions and a kampgruppe defending along the Chir and the 11th Panzer Division in the south in reserve. 7th LW Div was in possession of Survikino, on the north side of the river, when the battle began.

The Soviet 1st Tank Corps/5th Tank Army attacked on 7 Dec on the right flank of the 7th LW Div. The 1st Tank Corps succeeded in penetrating the German front by about 10 km. On 8 Dec, 11th Pz Div counter-attacked and by the 10th of December had defeated the attack of the 1TC. Then maybe two or three more "phases" of combat involving the 11th PzD and 5th Tank Army occurred along the Chir--with 5th Tank Army (elements unknown) attacking in various places and 11th PzD responding. The area bounded in red shows where the battle was fought between 7-22 Dec 1942.


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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 11:07:45 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		Thanks for all of the above.

Since this is for a random campaign, not a real one, I need the basic makeup of the opposing forces and then I put together a bit of this and that to make a plausable fight. So if the Soviet 1st had T34/76-41s and KV-1s I could make up a core force of a platoon of 10 T34s and say 5 KVs. But I wouldn't want to give them T34/76-42s if they were not around in late 1941. Nor would I give them T34/76-40 if the 1940 model was not in the area at the time.

For the Germans, if the 11th had all PZIV somethings I wouldn't want to give them PZIIIs.

Both sides get auxillary units that can be the same or different from the core force. So I could have LW troops in the German core force and a chance of Romanian troops in the auxillary mix.

ME or anyone else could make a setup to play as Germans with the 11th vs the AI with the Soviet 1st TC or the other way around. And I could still research the 5th Tank Core and do another campaign.

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/18/2011 11:55:26 PM   
Rick

 

Posts: 11600
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline 		One of the things I like about this Random Campaign system is that you could actually have some "key" battle(s) reflect actual historic battles, and have random battles to fill in the blanks. You could even limit the maps to a certain group of maps if you wanted to have maps of the area bcgames shows. The 3rd Pz Random uses that approach, but the campaign is fairly short.

Thanks
rick




< Message edited by Rick -- 12/18/2011 11:57:23 PM >

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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/19/2011 1:18:21 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Thanks for all of the above.

You're welcome. Sorry, I misunderstood.

v/r

bcgames



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RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/19/2011 1:31:40 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		Nothing to be sorry about. It helped me understand what I was looking at.

If you can do the same for the 5th Tank Army without too much trouble I would like that as well.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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Post #: 24
RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/19/2011 4:13:00 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		I thought that MR might have this info and a google search turned up all of this

http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/tank-mechanized-corps/soviet-tankmech-corps-in-wwii/

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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Post #: 25
RE: Chir River 42-43 - 12/19/2011 3:58:14 PM   
bcgames


Posts: 1140
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Sweet! That link is a keeper. Thanks!

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Post #: 26
RE: Chir River 42-43 - 1/1/2012 11:14:05 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		I put together some files today. Almost ready to test. Not sure how to get LW and Romanian troops into this though.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 27
RE: Chir River 42-43 - 1/2/2012 3:40:44 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12674
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		I have a 4 battle short campaign working for 1st Tank Corps from 12/7/42 to 12/22/1942. Now I have to figure out how to get the LW and Romanians into the enemy random setup.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 28
RE: Chir River 42-43 - 1/5/2012 3:00:13 AM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I thought that MR might have this info and a google search turned up all of this

http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/tank-mechanized-corps/soviet-tankmech-corps-in-wwii/


Hmmmm....looks like this MR guy did have that info...

That site is loaded with both TO&E and OOB data for WWII but especially the Eastern Front.

Good Hunting.

MR

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