March Madness '42
Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21
March Madness '42
Germans are too strong in march '42.
How do we fix it?
How do we fix it?
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
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WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
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WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
RE: March Madness '42
Keep February CV penalty for Attack CVs
No penalties for German defense in March, though
No penalties for German defense in March, though
- heliodorus04
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RE: March Madness '42
No, what's really happening is that Soviet gameplay is held up by bad mechanics, like 1:1>2:1 which coincidentally ends right in March 42.
Like having units come back for free, and by March 42, that free ride is over.
Like divisions being less expensive in AP to move to other commands than German divisions, but by March 42, Germany has been able to accumulate APs enough to make some difference in the shitty command situation that Gary Grigsby a-historically forces them to have, so you are seeing the benefit of improved German command.
There are problems with Soviet gameplay. Fix those by dealing with Soviet gameplay, not by taking even more away from Germany.
As it is, I routinely get private messages from players who say that my view of Axis disadvantage is the correct view, and they are leaving War in the East since it's no fun to play the Axis given how few options you have in strategy. It does not take much imagination to see a future where there are 100 Soviet players wanting Axis opponents and only 10 axis players to accept.
Like having units come back for free, and by March 42, that free ride is over.
Like divisions being less expensive in AP to move to other commands than German divisions, but by March 42, Germany has been able to accumulate APs enough to make some difference in the shitty command situation that Gary Grigsby a-historically forces them to have, so you are seeing the benefit of improved German command.
There are problems with Soviet gameplay. Fix those by dealing with Soviet gameplay, not by taking even more away from Germany.
As it is, I routinely get private messages from players who say that my view of Axis disadvantage is the correct view, and they are leaving War in the East since it's no fun to play the Axis given how few options you have in strategy. It does not take much imagination to see a future where there are 100 Soviet players wanting Axis opponents and only 10 axis players to accept.
Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
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Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders
RE: March Madness '42
Some AARs I'm seeing bad Soviet play. But all of them? No. Once is chance, twice coincidence, three or more times is a trend.
WitE Alpha Tester
RE: March Madness '42
All hysterics aside, the change in relative combat power between soviet and german that happens like a flip of a switch in march is not correct.
I like Q-balls suggestion.
I like Q-balls suggestion.
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
- karonagames
- Posts: 4701
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RE: March Madness '42
I think that there are a combination of factors that are adding together to cause the strong rebound in March.
Firstly, axis players who grew up under the 1.0 -1.03 blizzard rules learned to conserve as much strength as they possibly could during blizzards, so the "softer" blizzards of 1.04 and 1.05 mean that this conserved strength is increased when March comes around.
Secondly, morale changes have made the Red Army fragile, very fragile, and for Red Army players, used to 1.0-1.03 "auto pilot" offensives, this shock is the same as Axis players experienced when facing their first blizzards under 1.0-1.03. Axis players learned techniques to survive 1.0 -1.03, now the Red Army needs to learn how to survive 1.05. Maybe an expert soviet player can do a guide similar to the one I did for the 1.03 Blizzard
The Logistics model is way too generous (to both sides), but the fundamental changes needed are unlikely to be introduced any time soon. Suggestions to increase the existing logistic penalties and/or dramatically increase vehicle attrition (for both sides) have been made in the development forums.
Firstly, axis players who grew up under the 1.0 -1.03 blizzard rules learned to conserve as much strength as they possibly could during blizzards, so the "softer" blizzards of 1.04 and 1.05 mean that this conserved strength is increased when March comes around.
Secondly, morale changes have made the Red Army fragile, very fragile, and for Red Army players, used to 1.0-1.03 "auto pilot" offensives, this shock is the same as Axis players experienced when facing their first blizzards under 1.0-1.03. Axis players learned techniques to survive 1.0 -1.03, now the Red Army needs to learn how to survive 1.05. Maybe an expert soviet player can do a guide similar to the one I did for the 1.03 Blizzard
The Logistics model is way too generous (to both sides), but the fundamental changes needed are unlikely to be introduced any time soon. Suggestions to increase the existing logistic penalties and/or dramatically increase vehicle attrition (for both sides) have been made in the development forums.
It's only a Game
RE: March Madness '42
Bob, as I already mentioned to you, there are indeed a number of things the Soviet player can do to mitigate this. But they're all quite ahistorical and driven completely by game mechanics. In the end, asking for Soviet players to jump through all these hoops is a dodge from the fundamental problem.
WitE Alpha Tester
RE: March Madness '42
I dont think the transition is modeled correctly.
The instant change that happens in march is not right. The solution to it is easy: Hillbilly Highway. That is just adding fuel to the fire of the complaints of runaway tactics. No player is going to willingly risk getting piles of units cut of for no reason. In my game with carnage I started my march line (the line i want to be at after the march snow)in november of 41. So what I'm going to do is chase him down to the last turn of feb 42 and then fall back untill mud and hope that I don't get a bunch of guys cut off and killed.
The instant change that happens in march is not right. The solution to it is easy: Hillbilly Highway. That is just adding fuel to the fire of the complaints of runaway tactics. No player is going to willingly risk getting piles of units cut of for no reason. In my game with carnage I started my march line (the line i want to be at after the march snow)in november of 41. So what I'm going to do is chase him down to the last turn of feb 42 and then fall back untill mud and hope that I don't get a bunch of guys cut off and killed.
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
- karonagames
- Posts: 4701
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RE: March Madness '42
Look at the hoops of micromanagement Axis players had to go through in my 1.03 survival guide - why shouldn't Red Army players have a taste of the same medicine??
There obviously is some middle ground, but it can only be found once we are absolutely sure that Red Army players are doing their absolute best to mitigate the current set of circumstances. Axis players had to suffer super-harsh blizzards for six months before the developers saw enough evidence to make the changes to soften the blizzard - they did not realise that this softening would make the axis players who earned their "frozen flesh" medals, capable of unleashing their toughened forces with such a vengeance in March.
There obviously is some middle ground, but it can only be found once we are absolutely sure that Red Army players are doing their absolute best to mitigate the current set of circumstances. Axis players had to suffer super-harsh blizzards for six months before the developers saw enough evidence to make the changes to soften the blizzard - they did not realise that this softening would make the axis players who earned their "frozen flesh" medals, capable of unleashing their toughened forces with such a vengeance in March.
It's only a Game
- karonagames
- Posts: 4701
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RE: March Madness '42
The instant change that happens in march is not right.
Nor is the instant change in the first week of December.
It's only a Game
RE: March Madness '42
ORIGINAL: Baelfiin
I dont think the transition is modeled correctly.
The instant change that happens in march is not right. The solution to it is easy: Hillbilly Highway. That is just adding fuel to the fire of the complaints of runaway tactics. No player is going to willingly risk getting piles of units cut of for no reason. In my game with carnage I started my march line (the line i want to be at after the march snow)in november of 41. So what I'm going to do is chase him down to the last turn of feb 42 and then fall back untill mud and hope that I don't get a bunch of guys cut off and killed.
A pure Hillbilly runaway won't quite work. The German will merely follow up and maintain contact with the Red Army.
You have to withdraw behind a screen, either one composed of trash units or very mobile ones that can make a dash of it on the last turn of February. Or perhaps a mix of both: I'm liking tank brigades for this work. (But not the ones you've managed to score wins with, rather the raw ones.)
You also need to begin digging lines in the rear starting in December.
You need to limit your liability to a German counteroffensive. That means no carpets. These 3 deep carpets won't do it, you need several lines in succession going back 10+ hexes. You especially should not be stacking to the gills and create routing opportunities. Some stuff will be gobbled up, but you cannot be throwing away entire fronts.
You probably should halt your advance by the beginning of February at the latest and start pulling back the good stuff, guards units, etc. Possibly you can leave the cavalry there until the last minute, and they can continue taking shots at whatever is in front of them throughout February and even pushing west in soft spots to create more space for the grunts but they'll need to run at the end of it.
Train, train, train. Don't just throw everything up front. And whatever is training can also dig. Possible innovation: sapper armies. I've discussed that elsewhere.
So this March stuff can be managed. But it's not going to resemble anything like the historical circumstances. It's 100% designed to deal with the zero to hero March stuff.
WitE Alpha Tester
RE: March Madness '42
What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Look at the hoops of micromanagement Axis players had to go through in my 1.03 survival guide - why shouldn't Red Army players have a taste of the same medicine??
There obviously is some middle ground, but it can only be found once we are absolutely sure that Red Army players are doing their absolute best to mitigate the current set of circumstances. Axis players had to suffer super-harsh blizzards for six months before the developers saw enough evidence to make the changes to soften the blizzard - they did not realise that this softening would make the axis players who earned their "frozen flesh" medals, capable of unleashing their toughened forces with such a vengeance in March.
1.03 was busted, it underwent several iterations of fixes, getting closer every time, and now I think it is just about right. However the Germans should not be able to Blitz the russians off the map in march of '42 with the same ease as they did in '41 or that they can do in the summer of '42.
It's not about punishing one side or taking something away from the other side, it's about making the game "right".
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
RE: March Madness '42
I think its documented quite well, the weather changes are just the straw that breaks the back.ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
The instant change that happens in march is not right.
Nor is the instant change in the first week of December.
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
- karonagames
- Posts: 4701
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:05 am
- Location: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
RE: March Madness '42
What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?
Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.
I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.
It's only a Game
RE: March Madness '42
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?
Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.
I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.
I don't think either player should have to learn curious strategies to deal with rules that give strange transitions, I think the rles should give sensible results.
IMHO the December transition is warranted by historical evidence, the March transition is not. I think Q-balls suggestion is good.
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RTW3 Designer
RTW3 Designer
RE: March Madness '42
I hear ya Big A, I play both sides, probably not to well, but this last little bit I think would finish off the blizzard transition nicely.ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?
Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.
I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
- Redmarkus5
- Posts: 4454
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RE: March Madness '42
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Look at the hoops of micromanagement Axis players had to go through in my 1.03 survival guide - why shouldn't Red Army players have a taste of the same medicine??
Erm... maybe because the first dose reflected issues with game design and the second dose represents more design issues???
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
- Redmarkus5
- Posts: 4454
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RE: March Madness '42
ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?
Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.
I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.
I don't think either player should have to learn curious strategies to deal with rules that give strange transitions, I think the rles should give sensible results.
IMHO the December transition is warranted by historical evidence, the March transition is not. I think Q-balls suggestion is good.
+100
Thanks goodness I am not alone
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
- karonagames
- Posts: 4701
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:05 am
- Location: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
RE: March Madness '42
IMHO the December transition is warranted by historical evidence
Historically there were less KIA in December than there were in July, also there were 122,000 casualties from frostbite. The current game modelling ignores this completely and increases KIA and Disabled by a factor of 4x the historical numbers, because the designers chose to use a particular set of variables to achieve the overall desired result, now when the same set of variables are used to reflect the situation in March, it should be no surprise that less/better than historical results are being achieved.
I am not saying there is not a problem, I am just asking that the same degree of testing and adjustment takes place for the March "problem" as took place for the December "problem". Much of the knee-jerk reaction to December was misplaced. The same could be happening in March.
It's only a Game