Toidi
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Joined: 8/31/2011
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Many disagree with me. That does not make me wrong. Nor do your points, which I will now refute directly.
Say what you like about the terrible combat power of the Soviet Union in 1941: that issue is the single driving factor for the decisions that I despise about the German side. Fix the 1941 Soviet offensive ability, but quit handcuffing German gameplay by these design decisions.
How many different types of SUs do you spend your APs on?
Please describe how many railroad construction units you build per army, the number of mortar artillery you build (you know, the ones that out-perform 150mm howitzers), how many sapper battalions?
What other SUs does the perfectly efficient Red Army build when you're at the helm?
Actually in my campaign at the moment I build around 30 -40 RR construction units, total. Now I am building sappers, but still the numbers are not excessive at all. I am constrained by manpower a lot.
I also build very few mortars, unless I am arm constrained (I try not to be). If you look at losses, the artillery that fires from far does not have that many losses when troops retreat. Mortars are cannibalized by every retreat, maybe up to 50% TOE. As such, I prefer proper artillery, if I have arm to fill them.
quote:
You don't deny doing the a-historic stuff like disbanding motorized divisions to save the trucks (benefiting your blizzard offensive), disbanding corps HQs, etc. So just because you don't disband the 20 or so motorcycle regiments the game starts with, don't expect me to be sympathetic. The Soviets have too much freedom with their AP in an army that's already saving tons by the return of units attached at Stavka command.
I do not disband motorized divisions; I wait for them to disband by themselves. Actually, I use them in fight... I am only *very* careful not to get them in encirclement, which happens anyway...
quote:
FAIL.
Please define "Much Much Worse" and allow me to show you the commander's report for Soviet Front/German Army comparisons, and Soviet Army and German Corps comparisons
In the first picture in this post (because it's simplest to put 1 picture per post, subsequent posts will continue refuting the original points, and include further pictures of the actual game data; if you're reading this very recently to its being posted, I'm probably still writing refutations so come back later), you have German Armies compared to Soviet Fronts. For purposes of this discussion, we will focus only on Admin Ratings, since we are discussing the expenditure of Admin Points.
To try to measure the command difference, I added the Admin values of all 12 Generals on each side, and compared them to one another.
Please note that the German commanders in the image are actually ones that were replacing worse commanders; this is from my current game versus Cannonfodder, and I replaced several army commanders, such that you're seeing an upwardly biased German Command rating of these leaders. So in actuality, this comparison is more favorable to Germany than it ought to be when comparing Turn 1 commanders (which is what the Soviet commanders are)
Germany Admin Ratings at Army Level: 83/12 = 6.9
Soviet Admin Ratings at Front Level: 69/12 = 5.75 (rounding to 5.8)
5.8/6.9 = .84
So Germany's command superiority at Army level is about 16 percent.
To me, that does not sound like "Much Much Worse"
Now, let's immediately add more facts that are germane (LOL) to the point:
At game start, the following German armies are over command point allowances:
2.Panzer Group (-7 CP at start)
9.Army (-5 CP at start)
17.Army (-5 CP at start)
11.Army(-5 CP at start)
4.Army (-3 CP at start)
Helio, please understand that check on the army level *does not matter* unless you keep army very close to HQ. If you have the army further than 3-4 hexes from the relevant HQ, chances of successive check at the army level are maybe 5 or 10%. The immediate command matter.
This is exactly the issue for Soviets - having HQ 5 hexes from the fighting unit and leader rating of 5, the value in the checks is taken 5-5=0, which means that *all the checks* at army level are failed automatically. And, sorry to say that, you do not have enough armies (nor the AP) to keep all the HQ close. You just try. Checks by fronts are similar to those by Army Groups by Germany, and almost does not matter, unless the Front is *really close*.
quote:
Whereas on the Soviet side, fewer fronts start out of command than German armies, and more significantly, there is a noteworthy difference in how those comparative commands will straighten themselves out:
The Soviet command limit will correct itself with no meaningful requirement to spend APs:
As divisions are destroyed in the opening turn pockets, these burdens will be alleviated for zero cost in AP. By comparison, Germany has to spend AP to fix this.
As I say, the overloading of fronts almost does not matter - the checks will fail anyway most often. The only guy who can succeed in front checks for Soviet is Zhukov. All the other ones available immediately will not have any chance; Zhukov does, but you need to keep the HQ really close. I do not have the manual here, but example of calculations is given there; I remember doing the calculations and assuming that the front is 10 hexes away from the unit, the chance of success is really low. And 10 hexes from the front is rather close. Please check the manual for the exact equation (don't have it at hand).
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But there is another distinction in this comparison favoring the Soviets, which is that Fronts can command "Much much" more units, so the Soviet command is not punished administratively at this level as quickly for being over CP allowances as Germany is...
When you say that Soviets don't have corps HQs, remember that German Army HQs are punished routinely through 1942 by not having sufficient command point allowance, and this punishment acts to OBVIATE ANY ADVANTAGE OF THE ADDITIONAL LEVEL OF CORPS COMMAND .
because:
Once an HQ is over its command allowance, it quickly loses its ability to make successful rolls (of all types).
What good does it do Germany to have an Army HQ roll when it is over command? What good does it do Germany to have an Army Group roll when it is also over command? From what I've read designers say: once you're over command, rolls are severely modified downward.
It is true- if it is over allowance, all checks fail. However, as Germans, you can rely on your immediate commanders, with ratings 7+ for fighting checks for inf/mot. As Soviets, you have maybe 4 or 5 leaders like that. And no, you can't have them everywhere and actually rotating units in those as you described is often not that easy. For example, when you defend Moscow, it takes at least 6-8 armies. You can use all your best leaders there (best in Russian sense is medium quality for Germany, initiative of 5, and inf of 7, morale of 5-6, mech 5, adm 6-7), but rest of your armies than have to have leaders with rating 5-6.
Once again, let me stress that the leadership is not about admin rating only, as you tried to state later on, it is not about Inf rating only, and so on and so forth. All ratings are higher for Germans, especially initiative. Which is very important.
As for your subsequent posts, you believe in what you say and do not accept arguments to the contrary. Fine. I somehow understand that you would be only happy if you could transfer divisions as Germans the same way as Soviet can and when you can create support units the same way as Soviet can. I really think you want to have the cost lowered because you want to rotate your tank divisions to HQ with more supply/fuel, to push them even further. The high AP values to certain amount stop this exploit. Yes, there are some bad side effects, like you cannot send all units you want to Germany for blizzard. [you can send your whole corps to Germany, for blizzard, without hand picking units and not doing any changes in army structure at all, they will not be in great supply, but not that bad either] However, don't you think that actually sending units to Germany during blizzard should be an exception and punished by the game? Again, high AP cost prevents you to do it too much.
In short, the whole concept of AP is that you have to make choices - and each choice is kind of costly. You cannot do everything you want, because in the end you are AP limited.
My little suggestion, get some really good German player, play as Soviets, and show everyone how overpowered Soviets are in an AAR. I will be happily reading it! Meanwhile, Pelton with his record of winning all the games will be making threads saying that Russians are overpowered, as he does not win every single game, just 80-90% of them.
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RE: March Madness '42 - 
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