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March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 3:21:28 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Status: offline 		Germans are too strong in march '42.

How do we fix it?

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 3:41:19 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Keep February CV penalty for Attack CVs

No penalties for German defense in March, though

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 3:44:42 PM   
heliodorus04


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Status: offline 		No, what's really happening is that Soviet gameplay is held up by bad mechanics, like 1:1>2:1 which coincidentally ends right in March 42.

Like having units come back for free, and by March 42, that free ride is over.

Like divisions being less expensive in AP to move to other commands than German divisions, but by March 42, Germany has been able to accumulate APs enough to make some difference in the ****ty command situation that Gary Grigsby a-historically forces them to have, so you are seeing the benefit of improved German command.

There are problems with Soviet gameplay.  Fix those by dealing with Soviet gameplay, not by taking even more away from Germany.

As it is, I routinely get private messages from players who say that my view of Axis disadvantage is the correct view, and they are leaving War in the East since it's no fun to play the Axis given how few options you have in strategy.  It does not take much imagination to see a future where there are 100 Soviet players wanting Axis opponents and only 10 axis players to accept.


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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 3:54:00 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Some AARs I'm seeing bad Soviet play. But all of them? No. Once is chance, twice coincidence, three or more times is a trend.





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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 3:58:40 PM   
sath

 

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Status: offline 		Honestly people

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 4:06:09 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Status: offline 		All hysterics aside, the change in relative combat power between soviet and german that happens like a flip of a switch in march is not correct.

I like Q-balls suggestion.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 4:30:22 PM   
BigAnorak


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Status: offline 		I think that there are a combination of factors that are adding together to cause the strong rebound in March.

Firstly, axis players who grew up under the 1.0 -1.03 blizzard rules learned to conserve as much strength as they possibly could during blizzards, so the "softer" blizzards of 1.04 and 1.05 mean that this conserved strength is increased when March comes around.

Secondly, morale changes have made the Red Army fragile, very fragile, and for Red Army players, used to 1.0-1.03 "auto pilot" offensives, this shock is the same as Axis players experienced when facing their first blizzards under 1.0-1.03. Axis players learned techniques to survive 1.0 -1.03, now the Red Army needs to learn how to survive 1.05. Maybe an expert soviet player can do a guide similar to the one I did for the 1.03 Blizzard

The Logistics model is way too generous (to both sides), but the fundamental changes needed are unlikely to be introduced any time soon. Suggestions to increase the existing logistic penalties and/or dramatically increase vehicle attrition (for both sides) have been made in the development forums.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 4:39:17 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Bob, as I already mentioned to you, there are indeed a number of things the Soviet player can do to mitigate this. But they're all quite ahistorical and driven completely by game mechanics. In the end, asking for Soviet players to jump through all these hoops is a dodge from the fundamental problem.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 4:48:26 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Status: offline 		I dont think the transition is modeled correctly.
The instant change that happens in march is not right. The solution to it is easy: Hillbilly Highway. That is just adding fuel to the fire of the complaints of runaway tactics. No player is going to willingly risk getting piles of units cut of for no reason. In my game with carnage I started my march line (the line i want to be at after the march snow)in november of 41. So what I'm going to do is chase him down to the last turn of feb 42 and then fall back untill mud and hope that I don't get a bunch of guys cut off and killed.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 4:48:44 PM   
BigAnorak


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Look at the hoops of micromanagement Axis players had to go through in my 1.03 survival guide - why shouldn't Red Army players have a taste of the same medicine??

There obviously is some middle ground, but it can only be found once we are absolutely sure that Red Army players are doing their absolute best to mitigate the current set of circumstances. Axis players had to suffer super-harsh blizzards for six months before the developers saw enough evidence to make the changes to soften the blizzard - they did not realise that this softening would make the axis players who earned their "frozen flesh" medals, capable of unleashing their toughened forces with such a vengeance in March.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 4:53:40 PM   
BigAnorak


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quote:

The instant change that happens in march is not right.


Nor is the instant change in the first week of December.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 5:00:08 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I dont think the transition is modeled correctly.
The instant change that happens in march is not right. The solution to it is easy: Hillbilly Highway. That is just adding fuel to the fire of the complaints of runaway tactics. No player is going to willingly risk getting piles of units cut of for no reason. In my game with carnage I started my march line (the line i want to be at after the march snow)in november of 41. So what I'm going to do is chase him down to the last turn of feb 42 and then fall back untill mud and hope that I don't get a bunch of guys cut off and killed.


A pure Hillbilly runaway won't quite work. The German will merely follow up and maintain contact with the Red Army.

You have to withdraw behind a screen, either one composed of trash units or very mobile ones that can make a dash of it on the last turn of February. Or perhaps a mix of both: I'm liking tank brigades for this work. (But not the ones you've managed to score wins with, rather the raw ones.)

You also need to begin digging lines in the rear starting in December.

You need to limit your liability to a German counteroffensive. That means no carpets. These 3 deep carpets won't do it, you need several lines in succession going back 10+ hexes. You especially should not be stacking to the gills and create routing opportunities. Some stuff will be gobbled up, but you cannot be throwing away entire fronts.

You probably should halt your advance by the beginning of February at the latest and start pulling back the good stuff, guards units, etc. Possibly you can leave the cavalry there until the last minute, and they can continue taking shots at whatever is in front of them throughout February and even pushing west in soft spots to create more space for the grunts but they'll need to run at the end of it.

Train, train, train. Don't just throw everything up front. And whatever is training can also dig. Possible innovation: sapper armies. I've discussed that elsewhere.

So this March stuff can be managed. But it's not going to resemble anything like the historical circumstances. It's 100% designed to deal with the zero to hero March stuff.


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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 5:06:04 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Look at the hoops of micromanagement Axis players had to go through in my 1.03 survival guide - why shouldn't Red Army players have a taste of the same medicine??

There obviously is some middle ground, but it can only be found once we are absolutely sure that Red Army players are doing their absolute best to mitigate the current set of circumstances. Axis players had to suffer super-harsh blizzards for six months before the developers saw enough evidence to make the changes to soften the blizzard - they did not realise that this softening would make the axis players who earned their "frozen flesh" medals, capable of unleashing their toughened forces with such a vengeance in March.

What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?
1.03 was busted, it underwent several iterations of fixes, getting closer every time, and now I think it is just about right. However the Germans should not be able to Blitz the russians off the map in march of '42 with the same ease as they did in '41 or that they can do in the summer of '42.
It's not about punishing one side or taking something away from the other side, it's about making the game "right".

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 5:09:37 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

The instant change that happens in march is not right.


Nor is the instant change in the first week of December.

I think its documented quite well, the weather changes are just the straw that breaks the back.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 5:20:48 PM   
BigAnorak


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quote:

What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?


Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.

I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 12/15/2011 5:26:29 PM >

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 5:39:05 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?


Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.

I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.


I don't think either player should have to learn curious strategies to deal with rules that give strange transitions, I think the rles should give sensible results.
IMHO the December transition is warranted by historical evidence, the March transition is not. I think Q-balls suggestion is good.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 5:55:22 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?


Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.

I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.

I hear ya Big A, I play both sides, probably not to well, but this last little bit I think would finish off the blizzard transition nicely.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:13:32 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Look at the hoops of micromanagement Axis players had to go through in my 1.03 survival guide - why shouldn't Red Army players have a taste of the same medicine??



Erm... maybe because the first dose reflected issues with game design and the second dose represents more design issues???

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:14:34 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

What does 1.03 micromanagement have to do with current version?


Because I'm getting the impression that Soviet players don't think they should have to learn how to deal with rule changes in the same way as German players had to. The initial (over)reaction to the first winter from axis players showed that the "problem" was not as serious as it first seemed, because players learned to deal with the circumstances they were faced with.

I'm just saying that we need to go through a similar phase of (over)reaction before we determine the true nature and degree of the problem.


I don't think either player should have to learn curious strategies to deal with rules that give strange transitions, I think the rles should give sensible results.
IMHO the December transition is warranted by historical evidence, the March transition is not. I think Q-balls suggestion is good.


+100

Thanks goodness I am not alone :)

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:28:55 PM   
BigAnorak


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quote:

IMHO the December transition is warranted by historical evidence


Historically there were less KIA in December than there were in July, also there were 122,000 casualties from frostbite. The current game modelling ignores this completely and increases KIA and Disabled by a factor of 4x the historical numbers, because the designers chose to use a particular set of variables to achieve the overall desired result, now when the same set of variables are used to reflect the situation in March, it should be no surprise that less/better than historical results are being achieved.

I am not saying there is not a problem, I am just asking that the same degree of testing and adjustment takes place for the March "problem" as took place for the December "problem". Much of the knee-jerk reaction to December was misplaced. The same could be happening in March.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:38:06 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

IMHO the December transition is warranted by historical evidence


Historically there were less KIA in December than there were in July, also there were 122,000 casualties from frostbite. The current game modelling ignores this completely and increases KIA and Disabled by a factor of 4x the historical numbers, because the designers chose to use a particular set of variables to achieve the overall desired result, now when the same set of variables are used to reflect the situation in March, it should be no surprise that less/better than historical results are being achieved.

I am not saying there is not a problem, I am just asking that the same degree of testing and adjustment takes place for the March "problem" as took place for the December "problem". Much of the knee-jerk reaction to December was misplaced. The same could be happening in March.


You might well be right on the numbers, yet December saw a dramatic shift in the initiative from the Axis to the Soviets, and the game simulates that fairly well. IMHO more of the shift should be due to supply related factors than to "artificial" winter rules, but still, the effect is OK I think.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:41:42 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		Is the WiTE model simply too complex? I played table-top Fire in the East (GDW - looking at it on my shelf now) for years and the results were generally very satisfying, yet it has none of the complexity around CV drops etc. If it's mud, the Combat Results and Movement tables take care of it. Likewise snow/blizzard.

IMO, PC games of this type should focus on enhancing the visuals, enhanced production and logistics and the AI. The basic game mechanics were designed for these simulations 40 years ago, and should be adopted without major changes.

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 12/15/2011 6:42:12 PM >

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:42:35 PM   
BigAnorak


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quote:

You might well be right on the numbers, yet December saw a dramatic shift in the initiative from the Axis to the Soviets, and the game simulates that fairly well. IMHO more of the shift should be due to supply related factors than to "artificial" winter rules, but still, the effect is OK I think.


You've hit the nail on the head. December should reflect the logistic collapse that happened historically, so maybe the solution to March lies in recreating the actual logistic situation in March 1942.

Logistics, logistics logistics.


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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:46:07 PM   
redmarkus4


Posts: 3918
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Status: offline 		The Axis collapse in December was about more than pure logistics. Weapons froze, tanks had to be abandoned in the hundreds, frostbite and exposure tool a huge toll. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Complexity, complexity, complexity is the real issue and that's the lesson that needs to be learned for the next title in the series, if it's not already too late.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:47:14 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		We're stuck with the logistical model we've got, alas, and have to work around it. It's not ideal. The entire way the game deals with blizzard is kind of a kludge.

That being said, it mostly has been tortured into something resembling reality -- except for this last bit.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/15/2011 6:48:08 PM >

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:53:22 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		Playing beer and pretzels style vs. the Soviet AI (1.5.45 beta and both sides on 100%).

I have taken Leningrad and Kiev, surrounded Moscow and I am driving forward in the south yet it's still summer - 10/9/1941

This should probably not be possible without a high degree of expertise, which all will know that I lack.

Comments?




Attachment (1)

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 6:55:41 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Heh. C'mon, Red, if you switched sides and played the Sovs against the AI Axis at 100/100 you'd also spank it.

I do think optempo is too fast, but the real way to show this is PBEM between two competent opponents.

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 7:01:57 PM   
BigAnorak


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quote:

The entire way the game deals with blizzard is kind of a kludge.


Yes, and Q-ball's suggestion might achieve the desired result, but it is yet another asymmetrical rule, that was not needed before 1.05 - I think we need to drill down to find what changed between 1.04 and 1.05.

The aim of 1.04 was to get the game through the Blizzard, which it achieved , only to find the game couldn't get to summer 1942 because of the 4 deep wall of lvl4s. 1.05 was aimed at getting game to 1942 and for the game to still be challenging for both players in 1942.

From personal experience of 1.05, I think The axis are getting to Summer 1942 in about the right condition - not too weak, not too strong, and with enough head of steam for an offensive lasting 8-10 weeks. The issue may be that the start line is probably 4-6 hexes east of historical on average, and thus some form of "leash" may be needed in the March-to May period. Q-Ball's idea might work but it would need to be tested. The debate will come down to whether the line "deserves" to be further east because on average the Soviets are stronger than historical (5.8m OOB) because they conserved their strength by giving more ground in 1941. Swings and roundabouts.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 12/15/2011 7:08:25 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 7:05:57 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

We're stuck with the logistical model we've got, alas, and have to work around it. It's not ideal. The entire way the game deals with blizzard is kind of a kludge.

That being said, it mostly has been tortured into something resembling reality -- except for this last bit.




I'm starting to think that the only viable option is to try something like:

1. Crank down Logistics level to 50% to both sides
2. Increase AP's so that Build Up is the only way to get an offensive going on

I wonder however, what exactly would entail setting the Logistics level to 50%. The manual is very vague in this respect as it enumerates the following factors being affected:

1. Amount of supply and replacements a unit receives based on its supply trace
2. Amount of attrition unit suffers due to movement
3. Amount of fatigue added or removed from a unit during a turn
4. Amount of fuel expended by generic vehicles
5. Ability of leaders to conduct successful Admin checks

would I be right if I assumed that:

1. Supply and replacements get reduced by a 50%
2. Attrition due to movement increased by 50%
3. Fatigue added increased by 50%, removed decreased by 50%
4. Fuel expended increased by 50%
5. Leaders success chance for Admin checks reduced by 50%

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RE: March Madness '42 - 12/15/2011 7:13:35 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Heh. C'mon, Red, if you switched sides and played the Sovs against the AI Axis at 100/100 you'd also spank it.

I do think optempo is too fast, but the real way to show this is PBEM between two competent opponents.


My thinking is that the Axis should not physically be able to move this far, regardless of the quality of the AI, but no doubt that will trigger all manner of negative responses...

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