RE: England is mine

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RE: England is mine

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Time of Fury >> RE: England is mine

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RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 3:43:23 AM

Razz

Posts: 2499
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
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Once again units that are cut off from supply get smaller from attrition.

Every complaint posted has shown the units in supply from a city.

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Post #: 61

RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 7:43:52 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 700
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

I'm sorry. Just because this is how you designed the game does not mean it is the best solution or even a correct one no matter how much you say it is WAD. A Russian unit in Keiv that is cut off sould eventually die (i. e. crease to be effective for combat purposes). Without anyone having to surround the city and bomb it to death. Units out of supply for 3-4 weeks should die, period. Air lift of supplys MAY extend the period, but not frigging forever. The fact that not only does the unit not die in your design, it even regenerates magicly. This flies in the face of every logical outcome I can think of.

Then you make things even more absurd by allowing a German unit that is in Keiv to do the same thing!!! Stay in supply AND regenerate when cutoff when it is not even their city!!!! Someone was even kind enough to give you screenshots and a very detailed description of the issue (Land of Milk and Honey thread) and all you can say it is WAD and you have no intentions of fixing this? I am sorry but someone really needs to hire someone that understands military logistics because it is obvious that if you think either of the events I describe above is the way supply should works, then you do not understand logistics at all.

(in reply to Razz)

Post #: 62

RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 8:16:58 AM

doomtrader

Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: online

Numdydar, I'll repeat this again that the whole system currently works as designed.
I do agree that it might not simulate the way real logistic works, but in the terms of gameplay flow, we find it to be fitted very well.

You must remember that this game covers whole European front, with many armies and many philosophies and possibilities to supply or reinforce units. The way that Germans, Russians and Americans (to name three major countries) handled it, was completely different.

The system generally works fine with few exceptions, and I'm not saying that it doesn't needs some tweaking or adjusting. However I don't see a point to completely redesign whole system to handle exceptions.
Also from what I read and experienced in my games, the AI is doing pretty well with this system, giving the players challenge and fun. If we will be able to implement some improvements without reducing those factors and crippling the AI, then why not. If reducing the gameplay factor would be needed then I'm against such changes.

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(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 63

RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 8:20:17 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 700
Joined: 2/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

How many times do we have to tell you?

The units posted are supplied from the city. That is the supply source.

Naval combat is correct. It is WAD.

We decided that Amphibious units and transports would run and zig zag while the fleet would do every thing in its power to protect them.

Hence, you need to sink the fleet first.You can cry now, but when the shoe is on the other foot.. You would be crying the AI targeted your AK's and transports and sank them.

Use air power or sink the enemy fleet.

Will, your problem with fleets is in the strategy guide or manual.

You need to detect the fleet.

The AI fleet that is set to evade is hard to detect.

There are many ways to detect a fleet . Look at the manual.

OMG. You cannot be serious. Transports will zig and zag and evade naval combat vessels? Did you look at Jane's ships of WWII before you decided this? The average spped of a Amph or AK is about 14 knots. The average speed of a WWII combat ship is about 25-30 knots. Almost twice as fast. And you think by zigging and zagging, a 14 knot ship can avoid a 28 knot one over a 20-30 NM distance without getting sunk? That is about 90 minutes of zigging and zagging. I wish you guys had helped design WitP AE as I would be in Pearl Harbor by now as Japan

So the puny German fleet is going to engage, what should be the majority of the British Home fleet (plus anything else within a reasonable distance) for 90 minutes while the transport fleet zigs and zags to land troops in England? Without getting a scratch? Nonsence! Absolute nonsense.

The British would have use a PORTION of the Home Fleet to engage the German navy while the rest would have headed directly for the transports and sunk every one they could find. Then the British whould have used every ship possible (regardless of losses of ships by the German airforce) to make sure that not a single ounce of supplies got ashore. Of course, the way the supply system now works, all the Germans need to do is capture a city and the British will never get them out

.

Also the British had a reserve of pilots and planes that they held back to use to contest any invasion attempt. So even if the Germans reach the costal waters of Britian, those planes would have been committed sink the transports regardless of who controlled the skies. I'd like to see how the zigging and zagging model would handle that

While I have enjoyed the game so far, I cannot recommend this game to any of my friends due to these 'strange' design decisions that defy all logic. They would kill me lol. If you are willing to at least to listen and adjust your design based on (at least imho) contstructive feedback on what is wrong and should be fixed (and please do not give me 'you can mod' it stuff as how the navies move and attack is not moddable. Even if somehow it is modable, I nor anyone else should have to mod a game in order for it to perform logically) then maybe after a patch or two I could recommend this game. But not at this time, which is a shame as you have a LOT of great stuff in the game.

(in reply to Razz)

Post #: 64

RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 8:24:13 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 700
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Numdydar, I'll repeat this again that the whole system currently works as designed.
I do agree that it might not simulate the way real logistic works, but in the terms of gameplay flow, we find it to be fitted very well.

You must remember that this game covers whole European front, with many armies and many philosophies and possibilities to supply or reinforce units. The way that Germans, Russians and Americans (to name three major countries) handled it, was completely different.

The system generally works fine with few exceptions, and I'm not saying that it doesn't needs some tweaking or adjusting. However I don't see a point to completely redesign whole system to handle exceptions.
Also from what I read and experienced in my games, the AI is doing pretty well with this system, giving the players challenge and fun. If we will be able to implement some improvements without reducing those factors and crippling the AI, then why not. If reducing the gameplay factor would be needed then I'm against such changes.

How about these two suggestions I made earlier. Neither of these would effect the overall supply system.

A simple? fix to the units that are cut off without a friendly land line to a supply source would just to have them take 20% losses a turn until around 10-20% of their initial value and then have them be eliminated. This would not require any changes to how the overall supply system worked. So this would address both the issue about out of supply units not dying and the play balance concern you raise.

Or an even simpler? fix would be that aftex x turns of being out of supply they die. Either of these would address the problem and force player (or the AI) to do something in order to prevent what happens now in the game.

(in reply to doomtrader)

Post #: 65

RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 8:29:24 AM

doomtrader

Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: online

Numdydar, I really appreciate your feedback.
In every of your post, there is a right conclusion, however we have got all the informations about the game engine, AI logic, and all the stuff behind. Also as I already wrote, the most important for us is the fun of playing the game.

Please note that we are not deaf to the requests and are willing to improve the game in the future.
So, hw about posting your ideas in this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2987062

The policy of small steps is always best for everybody. Let's try together to make this game better.

P.S. Many of the aspects how the fleet is working can be modded.

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Post #: 66

RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 8:38:14 AM

doomtrader

Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

How about these two suggestions I made earlier. Neither of these would effect the overall supply system.

A simple? fix to the units that are cut off without a friendly land line to a supply source would just to have them take 20% losses a turn until around 10-20% of their initial value and then have them be eliminated. This would not require any changes to how the overall supply system worked. So this would address both the issue about out of supply units not dying and the play balance concern you raise.

This will make the defenders of Leningrad die within couple of turns. In reality they were defending for the whole war (3 years)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Or an even simpler? fix would be that aftex x turns of being out of supply they die. Either of these would address the problem and force player (or the AI) to do something in order to prevent what happens now in the game.

This rule is already in the game. By default units which are for three turns without a supply are having so reduced strength and mobility, that practically every attack on them is deadly.

In the particular case, all of those units are hidden in the city, and they are using local supply, which allows them to reinforce according to the tables.

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Post #: 67

RE: England is mine - 12/19/2011 10:50:24 PM

doomtrader

Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: online

For the next patch I've changed British reaction for the German proposal of peace or puppetizing. Now England will have 20% (was 80%) to agree when puppetizing is proposed and also 90% (was 80%), to agree on peace proposal. Also the Germans are more willing to propose peace instead of puppetizing, which is now 45/50 (was 25/70).

Hope this will allow the game to follow more historical path but also keep the doors open for those who like to check 'what if'.

I'm hoping to see some comments about that.

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Post #: 68

RE: England is mine - 12/20/2011 12:03:28 AM

Lascar

Posts: 292
Joined: 10/7/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

For the next patch I've changed British reaction for the German proposal of peace or puppetizing. Now England will have 20% (was 80%) to agree when puppetizing is proposed and also 90% (was 80%), to agree on peace proposal. Also the Germans are more willing to propose peace instead of puppetizing, which is now 45/50 (was 25/70).

Hope this will allow the game to follow more historical path but also keep the doors open for those who like to check 'what if'.

I'm hoping to see some comments about that.

The adjustment of the odds of Britain becoming a puppet seem to be in the right direction. But increasing the odds that Britain will accept peace to 90% is really hard to justify. With Churchill as prime minister there was little if any chance the British government would have sued for peace. Churchill's famous "we will fight them on the beaches..." speech given before the House of Commons just after Dunkirk makes it all to clear about the resolve of the British government to continue the fight even is the British Isles were conquered. But then if the odds of Britain surrendering under the Churchill government is virtually nil so would their chance of becoming a sort of "British Vichy."

But if just for the sake of game play to allow for an element of "what if" the possibility of Britain's surrender could still be possible but at a much lower odds, certainly well below 50%.

For many players the element of historical believability is an important aspect of enjoying the game even if the games mechanics and rules are somewhat more simplified and abstracted. For the hard core historically minded World in Flames would probably be the definitive strategic world war II game but its scale complexity may make it less approachable for them. However, ToF seems like it could approach that sweet spot between a level of complexity that is not intimidating and yet also the player not losing that sense of immersion and suspension of disbelief that gives you the feeling that you're playing a game that is about WWII.

< Message edited by Lascar -- 12/20/2011 12:19:04 AM >

(in reply to doomtrader)

Post #: 69

RE: England is mine - 12/20/2011 12:15:24 AM

doomtrader

Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: online

The German proposal comes after British request, so the Brits already decided that the fight is lost and asked Germans for armistice. Only thing that will keep them fighting are hard, unacceptable conditions.

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Post #: 70

RE: England is mine - 12/20/2011 12:36:23 AM

Lascar

Posts: 292
Joined: 10/7/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

The German proposal comes after British request, so the Brits already decided that the fight is lost and asked Germans for armistice. Only thing that will keep them fighting are hard, unacceptable conditions.

I see. So what are the odds of the British making that request? Is there a good chance that the British will continue the fight even if all of the British Isles are conquered? The Royal Navy rebasing in Canada, as Churchill said, and using the resources of the empire to continue the fight. Even the French had Free French forces fighting the Germans after the surrender and occupation of France. And it seems the British would have been even more defiant than the French in that regard.

(in reply to doomtrader)

Post #: 71