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RE: Naval routines furbar?

 
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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 8:30:02 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Well US is not at war with me and England is almost finished 8/40. The US is still a netural country as it should be imho in 1940. Of course I have no idea if resources are reaching England from the US, but they cannot be much as they have so few units left.

To be blunt, you should not have made Sea Lion easy even if that is what the playtesters wanted as it flys in the face of historical limitations that Germany was under. So I hope you fix that in a patch.

(in reply to Razz)
Post #: 31
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 9:54:29 AM   
macroeconomics

 

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To be historically accurate US intervention should vary depending on the time frame. In 1939 much of the world including the US was still in shock that general war had broken out again. It's unlikely at this point the US would have done anything. But that changed over time. Public sympathy with England during the Blitz was matched by a political commitment by US leaders in the latter half of 1940 to do everything short of provide manpower to Britain. Somewhere along that time path the probability of direct US intervention in the event of London being captured crosses over the 50% threshold. US intervention in the event that all of southern England was occupied would have been a near certainty by say Sept 1940. The whole threat of England capitulating and giving Germany its colonies in the Caribbean in exchange for leaving southern England was terrifying to US leadership figures.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 32
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 10:38:53 AM   
slaytanic

 

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I can confirm the unbalance in the england invasion mechanic.

I've been playing as both axis and allies from the start to check the balance. Since turn 1 Germany has much more pps than UK and is able to build more fighters and subs.

Playing to the best of my abilities and attacking on historical dates these are my conclusions:

- Poland falls in 4 turns
- France (with BEF) falls in 2,5 months - longer then IRL

On a whole I believe TOF got land and air-land combat excellent with minor problems

But then I try to simulate Sea Lion:

1. I load the german troops and bring german navy to the channel
2. Luftwaffe obtains air supremacy within 1-2 turns (since it has more fighters)
3. as UK I bring all fleets from atlantic to the channel, attack german fleet but don't do much damage
4. on the german turn I decimate the UK fleet with understrength TAC. 1 cv, 1 bb, several cruisers destroyed, most ship units heavily damaged. Casualties to Luftwaffe - none. I had commanders assigned to both sides.
5. Landings go with no problem, Dover is capturesd, UK land troops are no match for wehrmacht. That panzercorps destroys everything in its path (that's another unbalance story)
6. UK fleet needs to retreat while german fleet can stay in the channel and enjoy
7. German supply convoys cant be hurt and London falls quickly

What to do?

Germany needs to be able to do amphs, they did it in Norway and theories say they could do it in UK. The real problem is the casualties they would sustain disembarking and supplying the forces.

I believe the biggest problem is air to sea combat. German bombers easily killing UK fleets is unrealistic. Historically they only destroyed a few DDs during Dunkirk. Air supremacy alone shouldnt be enough for a successful sea lion. Ships had AA, they should be able to defend themselves. Also I think amph cost and STP for armoured and mecha should be strongly increased. Also, even with PPs from colonies UK is no match for german production.

About the events:
- 300 PPs for occupying France seem like overkill
- no event for UK to symbolize drafting in case of invasion. All I got were weak troops returning from france

Sea Lion was impossible IRL. In TOF it should be hardly possible for a very capable german player against a weak UK player (or AI). BTW, if If I made a major mistake playing as UK sorry for the post but I don't think so. I've been careful about the time at sea, commanders and fighting the german subs. 90% of UK military production went to the island and I built fighters mostly

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 33
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 1:01:11 PM   
macroeconomics

 

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I think we need to clarify that in a human v. human setting with a competent British player, Sea Lion is in fact virtually impossible. So all we are really saying is that British home defense AI needs some sprucing up.

But first Slaytanic, what settings do you use for FoW? Using a 3 hex range and the advanced recon option, I don't think it will quite play out the way you describe. Simply put, if the RAF is losing air superiority over the Channel in 1-2 turns, you're doing it wrong as the British player. Even the AI does better than that. As long as your RAF as at the edge of Luftwaffe fighter range, the odds of all your fighters being suppressed is quite low.

Some things that I think would increase the effectiveness of the British home defense AI without costing the British many PPs:

1) Prioritize reinforcing the frozen divisions that are guarding port hexes. Sometimes I've noticed these are not kept at full strength.

2) Put an infantry division on the beach hex next to these port cities - Southampton, Dover, Plymouth. The British have plenty of extra infantry divisions.

3) Prioritize reinforcing these infantry divisions on the beach hexes. This might sound expensive, but remember that divisional step losses are cheap and thus it should be fairly inexpensive to keep these at full strength. Probably costs the Luftwaffe more PPs to bomb them even if the interception chance is 0%.

Now capturing a port city becomes a multiple step process for the Germans. You need a paratrooper to kill the beach division. Which it won't be able to do unless it is severely bombed. And all it takes is a single RAF fighter to go undetected or unsuppressed to give the British a very good chance to stop the Luftwaffe from putting enough hits on that beach division. And if the paratrooper can get 7-1 odds on the beach defender, then the German needs at least 3 APs to land an infantry corps to take out the port infantry division.

As far as the RN goes, I think the naval AI is actually pretty good. The problem is that when two really big fleets are in the same sea zone, they often don't fight. Which works out to be a big advantage to the smaller side (usually the Germans).

(in reply to slaytanic)
Post #: 34
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 1:30:03 PM   
slaytanic

 

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I'm playing 1 hex range & advanced recon. The Germans can afford 2-3 new fighters per turn (without reinforcements). The British can afford barely 1 if they don't buy STPs for UK and colonies. Over a course of 10-20 turns before sea lion that brings air supremacy pretty quickly.

But that's not even the problem.

Germans don't need paras. You can simply disembark any unit on an occupied hex. German armour will make it happen. In Norway, german inf corps easily disembarked on a 1/2 norwegian inf corps. This isn't the main issue either.

The English expected Wehrmacht to make a beachhead and then kill it through attrition. For that to work RN had to be able to remain unopposed in the Channel and destroy german convoys with BBs and CVs. In reality - yes, in TOF - Tac bombers unrealistically slaughter RN. And I completely agree on the need to put UK infantry on the beaches, ports and London. As a human player I wish I knew which hexes are invadable without playing as Germans and clicking disembark :-)

(in reply to macroeconomics)
Post #: 35
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 6:27:00 PM   
macroeconomics

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaytanic

I'm playing 1 hex range & advanced recon. The Germans can afford 2-3 new fighters per turn (without reinforcements). The British can afford barely 1 if they don't buy STPs for UK and colonies. Over a course of 10-20 turns before sea lion that brings air supremacy pretty quickly.



Well 10-20 turns is a lot different than 1-2. And in my game the British certainly produced a lot more than 1 fighter a turn. Even on turns when I shot down 2 full wings, they seemingly would always come back. The difference I think are the British Colonies. After you take into account PP Upkeep, the Colonies effectively double British PP output. And given how cheap fighters are for GB, it allows them to produce 2 fighter wings per turn.

Also, the British should be able to maintain a very good kill ratio in fighter v. fighter combat vs. the Luftwaffe. Those recon intercepts are deadly.

But thank you for the valuable information on being able to make opposed invasions on beach hexes. I did not know that was possible. It seems from some very limited experimentation with the Overlord scenario that almost all coastal city hexes are also beach hexes. You just don't see the purple letter "E" because the city is garrisoned and the garrison unit covers up the "E".

(in reply to slaytanic)
Post #: 36
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 11:42:48 PM   
Flaviusx


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Modest proposal: don't allow amphibs to be built on demand, put them on a delay like most other units. Say 10 turns or so.

That gives the British some breathing room after France falls. Right now the Germans can dial up an invasion force when they get the massive windfall from France.

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(in reply to macroeconomics)
Post #: 37
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/15/2011 12:08:12 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3104
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: online
Re: U-boats not working..

Alright.. turns out I'm an idiot!

Every time there was a message syig tht the Brit's snak some of my convoy ships I'd go to the Damaged Convoy report....
fully expecting that's where I'd also find what my wolfpacks were up to. DUH!

Raider Report never even registared to my eyes for some reason. Blind!

Dis-regard all my rantings... error between operator and keyboard.


_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 38
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/15/2011 1:41:47 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Modest proposal: don't allow amphibs to be built on demand, put them on a delay like most other units. Say 10 turns or so.

That gives the British some breathing room after France falls. Right now the Germans can dial up an invasion force when they get the massive windfall from France.


Like I said in my OP building 16 Amphs in 3 weeks should be impossible for any country, much less Germany. Going back to my gold standard for production times SPI's War in Europe. In that game it takes 10 weeks to buils an Amph and 3 for an AK. The best I could do in that game is to build 1-2/week. So the cost seems correct as with around 150 PP/week and having Amphs cost 50+ PPs seems about the right pace. Just the time it takes is waaaay too short in ToF.

Again in my game the British never really contested me in the Channel. They were too busy fighting Italy in the Med to bother.

I too am playing on 1 hex and advanced recon settings for FoW.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 39
RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/15/2011 2:14:36 AM   
Lascar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Modest proposal: don't allow amphibs to be built on demand, put them on a delay like most other units. Say 10 turns or so.

That gives the British some breathing room after France falls. Right now the Germans can dial up an invasion force when they get the massive windfall from France.


Like I said in my OP building 16 Amphs in 3 weeks should be impossible for any country, much less Germany. Going back to my gold standard for production times SPI's War in Europe. In that game it takes 10 weeks to buils an Amph and 3 for an AK. The best I could do in that game is to build 1-2/week. So the cost seems correct as with around 150 PP/week and having Amphs cost 50+ PPs seems about the right pace. Just the time it takes is waaaay too short in ToF.

Again in my game the British never really contested me in the Channel. They were too busy fighting Italy in the Med to bother.

I too am playing on 1 hex and advanced recon settings for FoW.

Yes, and when you consider that historically the Germans were not able to actually build any proper landing craft for operation Sealion but instead scoured around the occupied countries for river barges and such.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 40
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