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Naval routines furbar?

 
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Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 5:50:43 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Maybe after playing WitP AE for too long my expectations for naval combat are too high for other games . The issue is that the rest of the game works REALLY well so it really stands out that the Naval game is broken as detailed below.

I decided to go for Sea Lion in 1940, so had the expectation that it would difficult to impossible to accomplish. Unfortunately it was a cakewalk.

While I was busy sailing AKs and Amphs across the English Channel (while British warsips were present mind you) absolutely nothing happened. I even put the entire Germany fleet in the Channel and not a single Naval combat took place. I put the fleet into port (by accident too many circles. As a side note it would be VERY nice to have the sea area circles different shapes/colors than the port ones.) Still my transports sailed back and forth with not a single shot fired.

Well, maybe supplying them through convoys will get my convoys sunk. Nope. British subs in the Channel just watched them sail by with no effect. Must have switched sides when Churchill was not looking ).

So what was the British CVs and BBs doing while all this was going on? Playing with the Italians in the Med!!!! I will admit the weather is better, but still. If Britian is being invaded through the Channel, every British ship would come screaming home as fast as possible in RL. Plus the british always kept a strong presence around the isle (Home Fleet anyone?). Of course they may just wave as the German convoys and AKs sail by, but they should at least be there. Not playing with Italy and NA.

It does seem that SOMETHING is happening with the AI fighting naval battles against other AI countries. But it is really hard to tell for sure. It just seems like if a human is playing a country, they are immune to being attacked at sea. And yes all my fleets were set on Engage and regular. I tried Raider as well and still no effect.

I have had subs out around Britian since the start of the war and have not had a single report of a convoy being hit. Made me wonder did the British even have any convoys? How about a pop up box at the start of every turn giving the results of Strat Bombing/Sub war. If nothing happens, then still have the box pop up and say nothing happened. Going into the Reports section, having to check on the Raider report, and THEN have to figure out is the report I am looking at last turn's or sometime before is less than useful. If viewing the report is the only way to accomplish this, then at least add a report for every turn so we will know that what we are looking at is the last turn results versus something that happened 10-20 turns ago.

One last thing is that Amphs are wayyy too easy to create. As Germany, I created 16 of them in less than a month (of course having over 500 PP after the fall of France did not hurt ). So I was able to land 3 Corps in one turn. The US at DDay could not do that after years of planning but the Germans can do almost three times as much in 1940 (including a full Armor Corp ?

In most of the other games that I have played that cover this period at this scale (Board and computer), Amphs take a long time to build and cost a LOT. So much so that the German player is forced to chose between a gamble with Sea Lion and a weaken (or delayed Barbarosa). As easy as creating Amphs was, it was not much of a choice. I can do both .

So either make Amphs even more expensive, have them take time like most of the other units, limit the number that can be built at once (could even be country specific), or some other method to accomplish a real choice for Germany.

Like I said before, everything else works so well (and I am glad I bough the game) it just really makes the naval portion look very bad. So I can only hope that getting the naval routines up to same level as everything else is number one on your to do list. Of course you could always borrow the naval code from WitP
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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 7:01:06 AM   
doomtrader


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Time of Fury is for sure lighter game than the WitP, which is a great naval oriented game.

Have you got naval combat autoresolve turned off?

I've got the reports from other players that the RN is getting back to The Channel from the Med.
Indeed it is possible they are headed too late.

I'll also think about increasing the cost of amphibious assaults for Germans, as this might improve the gameplay, however I think this should happen only on hard or very hard level, as the normal level is not for veterans (even from different fronts )


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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 7:16:22 AM   
Lascar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Time of Fury is for sure lighter game than the WitP, which is a great naval oriented game.

Have you got naval combat autoresolve turned off?

I've got the reports from other players that the RN is getting back to The Channel from the Med.
Indeed it is possible they are headed too late.

I'll also think about increasing the cost of amphibious assaults for Germans, as this might improve the gameplay, however I think this should happen only on hard or very hard level, as the normal level is not for veterans (even from different fronts )



Wouldn't some portion of the Royal Navy always be based at Scapa Flow for defense of the home islands, especially in 1940 when Britain is under immanent threat of invasion? The whole of the Royal Navy being in the Med.at anytime seems to be unrealistic.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 7:22:11 AM   
doomtrader


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I'm not able to say how does the specific situation looks like for every game.
Just telling what I have read

I'll take a close look at the British Fleet.
If someody could share his save game from before the Sea Lion, it would help a lot.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 2:19:43 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Just sent you a PM with the save game right before I invaded.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 2:26:59 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Perhaps the detection factors need to be tweaked.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 3:42:25 PM   
waichou

 

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Me I have another problem. All my subs are in the atlantic since 1939 (regular + engage), and after 1 year I didn't sink any convoy... I am very unlucky or is it normal ?

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 3:49:25 PM   
Flaviusx


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I think you need to set the subs to raiding + not engage for hitting convoys. Regular + engage is for fleet actions.



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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:00:16 PM   
doomtrader


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Flaviusx is right.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:15:06 PM   
Barthheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think you need to set the subs to raiding + not engage for hitting convoys. Regular + engage is for fleet actions.





Yeah I must be very unlucky then because with those settings and subs in sea areas that form a complete line from Iceland to Spain I have yet to sink even 1 convoy ship....

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:19:23 PM   
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There seems to be some bug around setting to engage or not. Some of my raider groups are set to engage, but some that aren't set to raider and engage I can't seem to set to raider + engage. Not sure why some come "preset" that way. So raider and no engage is the right way to use them?

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:19:30 PM   
Flaviusx


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Bartheart, I hear what you're saying and I'm having a difficult time finding good zones to sink convoys in during 1939-40. Bay of Biscay so far is the only place I'm getting any kills. Maybe their efficiency increases after you take the French ports. Or perhaps I need to concentrate the subs more instead of sending them out in groups of 1-2 per zone.




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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:21:46 PM   
doomtrader


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Remember to send your ships to the port regularly.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:23:34 PM   
Flaviusx


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Yes, I was wondering about that. How long can these guys stay out before their performance goes to hell? Do all ship types have the same endurance?



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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:25:14 PM   
Barthheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

There seems to be some bug around setting to engage or not. Some of my raider groups are set to engage, but some that aren't set to raider and engage I can't seem to set to raider + engage. Not sure why some come "preset" that way. So raider and no engage is the right way to use them?


Yeah I noticed this too. The ones that have Raider and Engaged set are from the start up. If you click on regular then on raider again the engage will uncheck.

I'm guessing that they are not really "engaged"....

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 4:28:25 PM   
doomtrader


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Raider and engage should not be presented at the same time.
Thanks for spotting that, I will set up the fleets correctly for the patch.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 5:29:35 PM   
apathetic lurker

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: waichou

Me I have another problem. All my subs are in the atlantic since 1939 (regular + engage), and after 1 year I didn't sink any convoy... I am very unlucky or is it normal ?


I am gravitating to to saying its normal...... I have been keeping my sub fleets all around the British Isles(all on engage) and the only thing that happens is that I get a message every once in a while that the British sneak attacked a sub and its damaged. Nearly a full year of game time and no msg that any convoy got damaged........

Seems a waste to produce subs...

< Message edited by apathetic lurker -- 12/13/2011 5:30:15 PM >


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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 5:52:04 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: waichou

Me I have another problem. All my subs are in the atlantic since 1939 (regular + engage), and after 1 year I didn't sink any convoy... I am very unlucky or is it normal ?


I am gravitating to to saying its normal...... I have been keeping my sub fleets all around the British Isles(all on engage) and the only thing that happens is that I get a message every once in a while that the British sneak attacked a sub and its damaged. Nearly a full year of game time and no msg that any convoy got damaged........

Seems a waste to produce subs...

I thought the same thing when I first saw the reports, but are you sure the reports say your subs are damaged, the report wording could be improved, the report says 'U37 detected in the North Sea' but it then goes on to say what it detected and damaged. The report would be better worded - 'U37 detects HMS Revenge in the North Sea etc.'

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/13/2011 11:31:08 PM   
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I created wolf-pacs of 1-3 subs and set them in various places, in the Bay of Biscay I killed 2, 3, 5 and then 7 STP, in another sea zone I killed 20 STP in one shot.

Raiders seem to be less lucky/effective.


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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 1:02:59 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Look in your reports after each turn, for convoy raiding. Subs are very effective, even early in the war.

In my current multiplayer Grand Campaign game, the German navy has repeatedly attacked convoys from the British Colonies, and also my convoys to Gibraltar, Malta, and Alexandria.

The same happens in a solo game, with the Axis AI.



< Message edited by gwgardner -- 12/14/2011 1:04:24 AM >

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 1:43:29 AM   
Numdydar

 

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I'm sorry but having to look in a report EVERY turn to find out if you attacked a convoy or not is a very poor design imho. It takes three clicks just to get to the Raider report. Three clicks each and every turn is not a good UI design so I am REALLY hoping this somehow gets massively improved. A summary box that popped up at the start of every turn would be ideal.

If that is not possible, then at least put all the activities for a single turn on the report versus having scroll through each item individually and have to figure out when the turn changes.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 2:03:01 AM   
Barthheart


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It's now May 1940.

My subs have u-boats have sunk NO Allied shipping at all. I have lost quite a few convoy ships to Allied shipping. Not sure what's going on here but doesn't seem right. Tried spreading them out.. no good... tried bunching them up... no good.... only 4 turns at sea now....

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 2:30:45 AM   
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Ok, I'm getting this to work very well now. Trick is to form U-boat fleets of 5, and keep them at sea no longer than 10 turns. The allied shipping losses are pretty hefty, they're clocking in on average around 30 STP/turn. I have three such wolfpacks working three different sea zones. This is as of December of 39.

I'm buying a coastal sub each turn. They are dirt cheap and quick to produce. The allies can't seem to hit anything so far, and at this rate the U boat menace will become quite serious by mid 40.

So it's all about wolfpacks. Sending them out in dribs and drabs gets meagre returns.



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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 3:13:46 AM   
Razz


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Excellent! You figured it out.

I believe the strategy guide gave you enough hints.

You need to search the sea zones until you find a hot spot.

Wolf packs due the best.

For the OP, he will be penalized heavily for spending 800 PP on amphibious transports.

He woke up the Bear. Russia is going to hit him hard. In fact they may even attack.

The USA should have joined the Allied Alliance. If not we need to fix that.
The USA joining the Allies and sending lend lease to Russia and England early in the game will hurt the German player.

While getting to England may be achievable you will be paying in the long run.

Actually taking England should be very difficult. If not we should fix that.

Let's see how the game plays out.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 3:36:41 AM   
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So far I have about 10-15 wolf packs out, but they only have 1-3 subs in each and I am getting 2-15 STP killed each turn. Works for me. Maybe I'll try some 5 sub wolf packs. I have not spent a dime on any subs, yet.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 3:39:24 AM   
Barthheart


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Well I have 2 packs out of 8 u-boats each and nothing... no enemy shipping sunk at all..... both packs sailing around the Atlantic inlet to the English channel....but different sea zones

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 4:00:38 AM   
Razz


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Make sure they are set to raiders status. Let them sit for a couple of turns as the AI can switch convoy routes.

Also, How long have you been at sea?

The strategy guide gives you a clue as yo how long you need to be out on the water before severe penalties set in.

Also, early in the war there are not that many PP's being sent to Great Britain. Sure there is allot form the colonies.

Once the USA come in you will happy you have Wolf packs.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 4:11:43 AM   
Flaviusx


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Hmmm. I'm not getting that high each turn. Some turns it's a turkey shoot, then it seems the convoys shift around some. Then I redeploy and boom. But it's averaging out to steady losses. Prolly 15ish STPs on average.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 6:56:24 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

Excellent! You figured it out.

I believe the strategy guide gave you enough hints.

You need to search the sea zones until you find a hot spot.

Wolf packs due the best.

For the OP, he will be penalized heavily for spending 800 PP on amphibious transports.

He woke up the Bear. Russia is going to hit him hard. In fact they may even attack.

The USA should have joined the Allied Alliance. If not we need to fix that.
The USA joining the Allies and sending lend lease to Russia and England early in the game will hurt the German player.

While getting to England may be achievable you will be paying in the long run.

Actually taking England should be very difficult. If not we should fix that.

Let's see how the game plays out.


Well Russia did attack but it is not causing me any issues at the moment. The US is not in the Allies yet either (in July 40). So far taking England has been a cakewalk I am up past Liverpool and have captured everything south of there, including London. Also NO interdiction of my convoys either btw even with a British fleet in the Channel. To me all this sounds like my OP is still valid ( I was wrong about the subs though. They have been sinking PPs, but it was just too much hassle to figure out. Also my subs have been at sea for over a year now are still seem to be just as good as before. So whatever modifers there are do not seem to be having much effect. And if you are going to heavily penalize fleets for being at sea too long, then there needs to be an indicator on the fleet screen that shows when they need to return to refuel and rearm rather than have the player guessing.) I should have completely overrun England by the end of 9/40 if not earlier.

On the Eastern side. I am past Minsk and near Keiv in the south. I have cutoff huge numbers of Russian troops. Not sure how far I will get with the limited troops involved but there are plenty of holes for my tanks to drive through. A solid front does not exit for either of us so it makes things very fluid to say the least . Finland is stil at war along with Rumainia. The Baltic staes are still neutral which makes the northern front much shorter which is good for me and bad for Russia as I have trapped a lot of troops against the borders. So unless I am missing something things are going very well and I am getting almost 200 pp/turn.

I should point out that Russia attacking Germany in 1940 is absurd for ANY reason. Stalin hated the West and would have been thrilled that Germany was going after Britian. This would have given Stalin even more of a free hand with the land grab in Romaina and the Baltic. My guess is that in my game, Russia went to war with Rominia (as they did in RL, but unlike RL, somehow I became involved without any choice in the matter. This is wrong. There is no way I would have supported Romania at this point. Why the game forces me to is not accurate.)

Also there should be some type of garrision requirement for both Russia and Germany for their border. As long as this garrision is met, Russia cannot attack (and I had plenty of garrisions there too, between 75-100 strength points which of course is why I am doing so well )

As far as the US goes, invading England would have triggered some response, but not outright war. Remember to the US, this was a European war and England and France delared war on Germany so in many minds they were the aggressor, not Germany. So if the US does go to war in 1940, that too would be very unhistorical. Just because England gets invaded should not mean that both Russia and the US go to war as both of those actions would not have occured in 1940.

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RE: Naval routines furbar? - 12/14/2011 7:15:29 AM   
Razz


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The USA was supporting the UK all along.

Where do you think all the resources came from?

Hitler finally got upset about it and DOW on USA.

USA would definately have joined the war if the UK was invaded.

There reason why Sealion is easy; the play testers insisted upon it, which I completely disagree.

< Message edited by Razz -- 12/14/2011 7:17:38 AM >

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