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Dumb Refueling AI?

 
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Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/9/2011 4:58:01 AM   
Chet Guiles

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 6/14/2002
From: Southern CA
Status: offline
On occasion a ship that I have had built can't find enough fuel at the spaceport where it was built, and it tries to refuel at all the wrong places. Even if there is a gas mining station at a gas giant two planets away, it will insist on going back to the same place where there was not enough fuel to start with. I suggest a smarter AI -- that knows where there acually is fuel enough. This is not a new 1.7.0.6 issue, btw. Obviously I can force it manually to go to the gas mining station, but it should be smart enough (these are not ships crewed by morons) to pick a viable fueling point.
Post #: 1
RE: Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/9/2011 5:00:12 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32941
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Hi Chet,

If this is happening with 1.7.0.6, could you please upload a save file for us just before the ship starts making those bad refueling decisions? If we can see it happen, we can figure out what's going on in that case.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Chet Guiles)
Post #: 2
RE: Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/10/2011 10:10:33 PM   
Neotheone

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 12/4/2011
Status: offline
This isn't a rare occurrence by a long shot. It has happened in all my games and everytime I play. For instance a fleet will be within centimeters on the screen of a "closest refueling zone" and turn around and head back to the fartherest colony away almost all the time when I click "refuel at nearest refueling station". I mean I've had them sitting in the same system and they will want to goto a system far far away to refuel, yet, if I click a 2nd time to do the same they will goto the system they are in. Please give us a DIRECT refueling command just like a move command. When we right click on a planet/colony we should get "refuel here" command not just "refuel at nearest". My ships go all over the place refueling when there are planets/colonies with the fuel icon right next to them. If the planet/colony has to take time to get the fuel out of the ground or through commerce then have some kind of "hold and refuel here" order/command please. I just can't see them having to go back clear accross the galaxy with no fuel traveling at 0 speed just because there's a random station that has fuel there at that time.

Next issue I'm seeing: Explorers following Explorers in the early game. What's up with this? Seems like there should be a routine that if an Explorer is already going to a sun that the others wouldn't follow it? I've watched 2 or 3 other Explorers follow one Explorer around and thus a wasted Explorer built. The routine should check to see if another Explorer is already going to one of these unexplored areas and if so then they should cycle around until they find one that is not being explored. Same with Colony ships there are several that are following another going to the same planet to colonize.

One thing about it being able to see all of this as we have things on automated it's clear to see why the AI almost never wins in these types of games. They are horrible at most everything. Please stop them from giving free credits away every time I turn around. I get 20000 credits from some race almost a minute apart. Please find another way for the AI to gain friendship with the player besides giving him free money so often.

Taxes: Why does the AI on auto drive the happiness level down to +10 on every colony? Clearly the instructions tell us that +15 is the lowest we should go and be fairly safe of no AI colony jumping ship. Everytime I check the happiness level I see tons of grey grimicing faces looking back at me and hardly a one smiling one and a lot of +10's.

Oh an Erik before you ask: YES I am playing 1.07.06 Official Patch. Again YES I am playing 1.07.06 Offical Patch brand new started game.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 3
RE: Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/10/2011 10:22:42 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32941
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neotheone
This isn't a rare occurrence by a long shot. It has happened in all my games and everytime I play. For instance a fleet will be within centimeters on the screen of a "closest refueling zone" and turn around and head back to the fartherest colony away almost all the time when I click "refuel at nearest refueling station".


Is this all with 1.7.0.6? We fixed many refueling issues between 1.7.0.0 and 1.7.0.6.

quote:

I mean I've had them sitting in the same system and they will want to goto a system far far away to refuel, yet, if I click a 2nd time to do the same they will goto the system they are in. Please give us a DIRECT refueling command just like a move command. When we right click on a planet/colony we should get "refuel here" command not just "refuel at nearest". My ships go all over the place refueling when there are planets/colonies with the fuel icon right next to them. If the planet/colony has to take time to get the fuel out of the ground or through commerce then have some kind of "hold and refuel here" order/command please. I just can't see them having to go back clear accross the galaxy with no fuel traveling at 0 speed just because there's a random station that has fuel there at that time.


Hm, I thought "refuel here" was possible. I will double-check that.

quote:

Next issue I'm seeing: Explorers following Explorers in the early game. What's up with this? Seems like there should be a routine that if an Explorer is already going to a sun that the others wouldn't follow it? I've watched 2 or 3 other Explorers follow one Explorer around and thus a wasted Explorer built. The routine should check to see if another Explorer is already going to one of these unexplored areas and if so then they should cycle around until they find one that is not being explored. Same with Colony ships there are several that are following another going to the same planet to colonize.


The first is not an issue. If you keep watching them, they explore different parts of the same system and eventually go to separate systems.

Colony ships should not be heading to the same system unless they are colonizing more than one planet there or if you have ordered a colony ship there manually when one was already on the way.

quote:

One thing about it being able to see all of this as we have things on automated it's clear to see why the AI almost never wins in these types of games. They are horrible at most everything. Please stop them from giving free credits away every time I turn around. I get 20000 credits from some race almost a minute apart. Please find another way for the AI to gain friendship with the player besides giving him free money so often.


Have you won all your games so far?

quote:

Taxes: Why does the AI on auto drive the happiness level down to +10 on every colony? Clearly the instructions tell us that +15 is the lowest we should go and be fairly safe of no AI colony jumping ship. Everytime I check the happiness level I see tons of grey grimicing faces looking back at me and hardly a one smiling one and a lot of +10's.


The AI tries to optimize income over population growth in most cases.

Regards,

- Erik



< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 12/10/2011 10:24:15 PM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Neotheone)
Post #: 4
RE: Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/10/2011 10:34:21 PM   
Neotheone

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 12/4/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neotheone
This isn't a rare occurrence by a long shot. It has happened in all my games and everytime I play. For instance a fleet will be within centimeters on the screen of a "closest refueling zone" and turn around and head back to the fartherest colony away almost all the time when I click "refuel at nearest refueling station".


Is this all with 1.7.0.6? We fixed many refueling issues between 1.7.0.0 and 1.7.0.6.

quote:

I mean I've had them sitting in the same system and they will want to goto a system far far away to refuel, yet, if I click a 2nd time to do the same they will goto the system they are in. Please give us a DIRECT refueling command just like a move command. When we right click on a planet/colony we should get "refuel here" command not just "refuel at nearest". My ships go all over the place refueling when there are planets/colonies with the fuel icon right next to them. If the planet/colony has to take time to get the fuel out of the ground or through commerce then have some kind of "hold and refuel here" order/command please. I just can't see them having to go back clear accross the galaxy with no fuel traveling at 0 speed just because there's a random station that has fuel there at that time.


Hm, I thought "refuel here" was possible. I will double-check that.

quote:

Next issue I'm seeing: Explorers following Explorers in the early game. What's up with this? Seems like there should be a routine that if an Explorer is already going to a sun that the others wouldn't follow it? I've watched 2 or 3 other Explorers follow one Explorer around and thus a wasted Explorer built. The routine should check to see if another Explorer is already going to one of these unexplored areas and if so then they should cycle around until they find one that is not being explored. Same with Colony ships there are several that are following another going to the same planet to colonize.


The first is not an issue. If you keep watching them, they explore different parts of the same system and eventually go to separate systems.

Colony ships should not be heading to the same system unless they are colonizing more than one planet there or if you have ordered a colony ship there manually when one was already on the way.

quote:

One thing about it being able to see all of this as we have things on automated it's clear to see why the AI almost never wins in these types of games. They are horrible at most everything. Please stop them from giving free credits away every time I turn around. I get 20000 credits from some race almost a minute apart. Please find another way for the AI to gain friendship with the player besides giving him free money so often.


Have you won all your games so far?

quote:

Taxes: Why does the AI on auto drive the happiness level down to +10 on every colony? Clearly the instructions tell us that +15 is the lowest we should go and be fairly safe of no AI colony jumping ship. Everytime I check the happiness level I see tons of grey grimicing faces looking back at me and hardly a one smiling one and a lot of +10's.


The AI tries to optimize income over population growth in most cases.

Regards,

- Erik




1.
quote:

Is this all with 1.7.0.6? We fixed many refueling issues between 1.7.0.0 and 1.7.0.6.



Lol you didn't read the very last line in my origional post did you?

2.
quote:

Have you won all your games so far?


Yes. Well I WAS winning until every 2 minutes the game started crashing...remember?!

3.
quote:

The AI tries to optimize income over population growth in most cases.



That's all well and good but it still should be given a routine to at least keep the happiness at +15 not +10 unless there is such a need for income that the AI and player are willing to take a chance of losing its colonies to influence or out right revolt.

4.
quote:

Hm, I thought "refuel here" was possible. I will double-check that.



Damn I finally won one vs Erik (I am great got me some chocolate cake) hehe

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 5
RE: Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/12/2011 7:05:41 AM   
elliotg


Posts: 3184
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chet Guiles
On occasion a ship that I have had built can't find enough fuel at the spaceport where it was built, and it tries to refuel at all the wrong places. Even if there is a gas mining station at a gas giant two planets away, it will insist on going back to the same place where there was not enough fuel to start with. I suggest a smarter AI -- that knows where there acually is fuel enough. This is not a new 1.7.0.6 issue, btw. Obviously I can force it manually to go to the gas mining station, but it should be smart enough (these are not ships crewed by morons) to pick a viable fueling point.

The refueling AI makes every effort to find the nearest location with enough available fuel of the correct type for the selected ship. This includes accounting for whether your ship is allowed to dock at the refuel location (is it your empire's gas mining station, or do you military refueling rights, etc).

One factor that can influence this is that the AI will avoid locations with long queues of ships waiting to dock - this would typically be an inefficient location to refuel. Maybe this is what you are seeing?

If you have a reproduceable situation where you think the nearest chosen refuel location is illogical, feel free to upload a savegame and I will take a look at it.

Thanks
Elliot

(in reply to Chet Guiles)
Post #: 6
RE: Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/12/2011 9:16:59 AM   
sbach2o

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neotheone

4.
quote:

Hm, I thought "refuel here" was possible. I will double-check that.



Damn I finally won one vs Erik (I am great got me some chocolate cake) hehe



The "refuel here" *should* be possible, although the command is sometimes hard to get at. For military ships or fleets it should become available through the ctrl-right-click context menu, where there should appear "refuel at blah mining station", with the ship(s)/fleet to refuel selected, and the right-click on the fuel source, of course. Note, that the standard right-click command will default to something like 'patrol' or 'escort', depending on what is right-clicked.

The problems I can imagine with ctrl-right-click: You have to hit the refueling source, which can be difficult to impossible when there are lots of other ships at the target (refueling, or in the case of space ports, being built). I can imagine (never checked thoroughly) that at least some surplus fuel must be present at the potential fuel source.

For anyone trying to issue the "refuel at..." command it is a good idea to check beforehand what amount of free, unreserved fuel is available by looking at the resource in the cargo hold of the mining station or planet. Only that which isn't tied up as 'reserved' will be available.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 12/12/2011 10:20:54 AM >

(in reply to Neotheone)
Post #: 7
RE: Dumb Refueling AI? - 12/13/2011 9:25:09 AM   
sveint


Posts: 1378
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline
Maybe I suggest higher priority for the civilian fleet to transport fuel to planets and starbases?

(in reply to sbach2o)
Post #: 8
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