Matrix Games Forums

Ageod takes you back to the Civil War Battle Academy iPad and PC 50 per cent off!Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem v5.60.53 update Allied Corps Walkthrough playlist and AARConflict of Heroes: Ghost Divisions Released!Pandora Beta Playthrough VideosGermany at War: Barbarossa 1941 Announced!Great Battles Medieval coming to your tablet with a 50 per cent off launch sale!Matrix Games / Slitherine / AGEOD are recruiting AGAIN!Battle Academy: Blitzkrieg France Let's Play Video		 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/2/2011 4:10:41 AM   
Carl Rugenstein


Posts: 169
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hoosierland
Status: offline 		Just a short note on a book I recently purchased and with which I am less than thrilled. Manstein - Hitler's Master Strategist by Benoit Lemay. I really enjoy reading about the eastern front. I purchased the book in anticipation of reading a biography of Manstein oriented towards his strategic abilities as the title might imply. Unfortunately what I got for my money was a book that could be more properly titled "My Personal Crusade To Prove Manstein Was A War Criminal". There is very little insight in the book regarding his military performance but hundreds of pages detailing Manstein's "criminal" activities. Please don't get me wrong. He was almost certainly guilty of many of the charges leveled against him. My problem with the book, besides the fact it is poorly written, is that it is presented as a book about Manstein as a strategist but is actually an extensive study of war crimes. While Mr. Lemay may not be a gifted writer, he is sharpe enough to realize the book as titled will sell a lot more copies than had the book been titled accurately. In summay, if you want a book on German war crimes on the Eastern Front, you may want to pick it up. If your after a well written biography on Manstein, you may want to look a little closer before you plunk down your hard earned bucks.

< Message edited by Carl Rugenstein -- 12/2/2011 4:18:40 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/2/2011 7:54:41 AM   
Grouchy


Posts: 1116
Joined: 9/26/2001
From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Status: offline 		Why not buy Lost Victories, written by Erich von Manstein. Of course it's somewhat biased from time to time but despite all it is still a good account of the war from the personal viewpoint of a field marshal.

_____________________________


(in reply to Carl Rugenstein)
Post #: 2
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/2/2011 10:42:11 AM   
morvael


Posts: 1536
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: online 		I enjoyed that book, it gives a fresh perspective on this "hero". Maybe the subtitle says just what all know already, and the book was written to show another (hidden) face of Mr. Master Strategist, not to prove or disprove the subtitle.

(in reply to Grouchy)
Post #: 3
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/2/2011 11:38:39 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


Posts: 2114
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I enjoyed that book, it gives a fresh perspective on this "hero". Maybe the subtitle says just what all know already, and the book was written to show another (hidden) face of Mr. Master Strategist, not to prove or disprove the subtitle.


What really put me off about this book were the digressions about the French Army in 1940 (for instance). I know the author is French, but man, that show of chauvinism in a book about a German general was hilarious (for me). If he wanted to write a book about the 1930's French Army, he's my guest. But I find totally irrelevant - to understand the figure of Manstein - to know how much of exquisite gourmands were French Army commanding officers.

His discussion about the role of Manstein in defining and designing the Kursk offensive are more a rant than anything else. He's using all the time secondary sources, and the reader doesn't really have a clue which actually was the author argument.

If he had focused on his subject matter - Manstein and his involvement in war crimes - he would have got a much readable (and useful) book.

_____________________________


Real men go to war on Real tanks

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 4
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/2/2011 2:19:58 PM   
jamesm

 

Posts: 728
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Cairns, Australia
Status: offline 		What about this one?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HV0TNC/ref=docs-os-doi_0

I brought for my Kindle but I am yet to read it.

I just hope I got a balanced biography.

(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 5
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/2/2011 6:30:16 PM   
Augustas

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 11/25/2005
Status: offline 		I highly recommend the Mungo Melvin bio of Manstein.Don`t let the name of the author put you off (He was actually a British General).

It seems that Manstein whilst probably the best general/planner of WWII his morals leave a lot to be desired.Turning a blind eye to atrocities in his area reveals ( strangely out of character )  a flawed and weak character. His excuse for not joining the attempt on Hitlers life in 1944 was "Prussian Field Marshalls do not mutiny".Laudable at any other time in history -but perhaps not regarding that situation.

Anyway get Melvins` book. It covers his whole life not just WWII. His early carreer is very interesting and you you realise where he is coming from when you get to his operational phase of his life.

(in reply to jamesm)
Post #: 6
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/2/2011 8:15:11 PM   
map66

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 1/31/2011
Status: offline 		I enjoyed Melvin's book, and would certainly recommend it. But that said, I do think he was a little soft on Manstein as a moral and ethical figure. Though he deals with the war crimes, he does seem to back off with a "not proven" verdict, and skirts by indications of Manstein's early Nazi sympathies without I feel enough investigation. For example, he minimizes a fairly strongly worded speech Manstein delivered on Hitler's birthday, and dismisses Manstein's wife's party membership as merely a cover for her anti-Nazi husband. But I think a lot of this softness is tied to Melvin getting access to Manstein's letters through his surviving children, and I think one can easily sense a much more harsh judgment by Melvin in reading between the lines (as well as a sense that Manstein, for lack of a better phrase, was an arrogant POS). And as an operational account of Manstein's leadership it is indeed excellent.

(in reply to Augustas)
Post #: 7
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 1:51:57 AM   
Fishbed


Posts: 1622
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

What really put me off about this book were the digressions about the French Army in 1940 (for instance). I know the author is French, but man, that show of chauvinism in a book about a German general was hilarious (for me).



Thanks, but no thanks. Lemay is a typical French-Canadian name, and all the Benoit Lemay I have googled used to be University of Montreal graduates, I doubt he has been French for a couple centuries. So much for the chauvinism...

_____________________________


(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 8
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 2:41:53 AM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed
Thanks, but no thanks. Lemay is a typical French-Canadian name, and all the Benoit Lemay I have googled used to be University of Montreal graduates, I doubt he has been French for a couple centuries. So much for the chauvinism...


I didn't know the French Canadians had invented their own names I would have said all these names come from France... Romanic, Germanic, Brythonic and Basque...

Now the guy could be -no matter the name- from Paris, Vladivostok or Papoua-New Guinea, you're right here.

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 9
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 3:11:02 AM   
Fishbed


Posts: 1622
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Well Lemay (which btw is also Curtiss Lemay's "Lemay") is the contraction of "Le Mai", which is supposed to stand for a tree that would be planted on the 1st of May. There is less than 1900 people born in France with that name since 1890, while Lemay is the 85th most popular family name in Quebec with around an estimated 13.000 contemporary living namesake. Kinda narrows the choice when it comes to geolocation and statistics

From what Ive read though he is a doctor from University of Montreal, and did a post-doctorate at Paris IV, which may explain the kind of sources he had an access to. He wrote about Rommel too, but again, nor Canada or France are maybe the best place to study the two characters (although both made a durable impression to our observers when they stopped by, for obvious reasons, one being the architect and the other one the spearheading herald of the Fall of France...)


_____________________________


(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 10
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 3:18:15 AM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline 		Well, then I guess Eisenhower managed to trick everyone and became a famous general and er American president. Not too bad for a German

You see, generalizations work both ways... My money would have been on Papoua though.

Did you know "1900 people born in France with that name since 1890, while Lemay is the 85th most popular family name in Quebec with around an estimated 13.000 contemporary living namesake" when you first wrote that? Wow, you are a walking encyclopedia... If I knew all that data my head would explode

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 11
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 3:43:29 AM   
Fishbed


Posts: 1622
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Sorry Tullius, I didn't think you were actually poking fun at me. I just checked the sources and did a little research on the guy before I wrote from my first feeling, and thereafter when asked about it, I searched and found some figures about the "Lemay" thing that would support the hypothesis. Although it may sound strange to you, Lemay is among a few very French-Canadian family names that outlived and outgrew its possible French roots if it had any (being the name of a famous French-Canadian singer however helps to put the name on the map). Sorry for not putting the references online, was writing from my Ipad on the sofa while a cleaning detail was turning the apartment upside down, Safari and my fingers ain't exactly my most preferred way of posting anything on the internet. If you need them I can put them online.

Shall I be scolded by pointing out that the guy's probably French-Canadian (what he is in the end apparently from what I get from the Internet) while Bletchley_Geek, who I respect a lot as a person for his nice AAR btw, shall be legitimate in criticizing the book for its French chauvinism "because Benoit Lemay sounds French so he's French"?!

Don't worry, if you fear I may mistake you for an undercover Roman from your name, that won't happen if it is what you're suspecting

But beyond that, it just confirms a feeling I had in the past seeing other "newcomers" bullied: whatever your personal past or your postcount may be over the Matrix boards, even though I am a big lurker who's updating every morning the AAR page to follow avidly QBall, Tarhunnas, Betchley_Geek or IdahoNY's AARs, WitE community is definitely not the most welcoming party. The blue horizons of WitP are definitely more forgiving and tolerant. I guess it must come from all the rain, the mud and the HQ buildup stuff, sure it doesn't help with the mood. Feels like you need to defend Betchley_Geek from the bad outsider - well I assure you I am not out there for his blood, just emphasizing a point that I believe to be unfair. Feels kinda strange from you as Ive come to read quite a number of your posts and AAR, & you didn't sound like the kind of person who would jump at someone else's throat for a petty dispute. Too bad.


< Message edited by Fishbed -- 12/4/2011 3:57:53 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 12
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 4:03:03 AM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline 		Not making fun of you, Fishbed Surprised that you -along with BG- had assumed his nationality simply by seeing the name. Well... you know very well our dear old "friend" Terminus is not precisely the best host... His witch-hunts are legendary

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 13
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 4:07:24 AM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline 		By the way, have you read this? I will contribute. And you? Michael truly deserves it

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 14
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 4:14:16 AM   
Fishbed


Posts: 1622
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Thanks for the hint, will gladly do :)

_____________________________


(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 15
RE: Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase - 12/4/2011 9:32:21 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 11035
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouchy

Why not buy Lost Victories, written by Erich von Manstein. Of course it's somewhat biased from time to time but despite all it is still a good account of the war from the personal viewpoint of a field marshal.
Warspite1

+1

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Grouchy)
Post #: 16
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Manstein Book - Examine Before Purchase Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.759