A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

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von Beanie
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A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by von Beanie »

Starting with 1.05.xx GC from the beginning in a competitive PBEM setting, I'm finding the Germans can now launch 1941-style blitzkriegs and encirclements in the summer of 1942. Since there's no need to maintain panzer divisions on the rest of the front, the Germans can concentrate their whole armored force in one region and overwhelm your defenses. I haven't seen any threads warning me to expect these sorts of offensives in 1942, so I'm ringing the alarm bell now. Russian players need to be prepared to consider running away again as the wisest defense, because you can't afford the major losses I've suffered trying to reopen the pockets, just to see yourself get surrounded again.

I believe it's the one week movement rates that allow the extreme mobility that creates the 1941-style pockets. Either the movement rates need to be lowered in 1942, and/or the time scale needs to be reduced to 3.5 day turns during the summer turns to allow the defender to react quicker. I'm finding that the Germans are as strong, if not stronger in 1942 than they are in 1941. Anyway, be forewarned.

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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by larryfulkerson »

Are you playing Pelton?  Sounds like you're playing Pelton.  He does that to me too.
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by vlcz »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
Are you playing Pelton? Sounds like you're playing Pelton. He does that to me too.

No, he is playing me [8D] , we are having a very interesting match indeed, Sadly my 41 campaign was much less succesful than Pelton ones..partly because I do not have Pelton´s skills partly by vonBeanie superb defense.

I´m a bit surpressed too by my 42 initial gains but I think some of my opponen soviet’42 practices, as a bit of overconfidence in forts and crippling armored counterattacks, has helped for a while...... (obviusly I will not give much info on this as it is an ongoing game...)

As for the time scale I think there is a big point in vonbeanie´s post, I worry if the "reserve" option as it works now can accurately depict defensive reactions in so a meaningful spam of time as seven days. Perhaps a shorter turn (i.e. a la witp) could give us more capabilities (perhaps even too much) at the cost of making PvP games much more heavy duty (againa as witp...)
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by ComradeP »

I don't see any historical justification for why full strength forces with an adequate amount of vehicles and fuel should perform worse by definition in 1941 than in 1942.

A large part of the problems some Soviet players are experiencing seems to be because their defensive preparations are inadequate or simply poor. Placing 3 unit stacks at the frontline with little to no defensive in depth behind them is just giving the Germans free pockets.

1942 is 1942, not 1944. Act like it.
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: vlcz
As for the time scale I think there is a big point in vonbeanie´s post, I worry if the "reserve" option as it works now can accurately depict defensive reactions in so a meaningful spam of time as seven days. Perhaps a shorter turn (i.e. a la witp) could give us more capabilities (perhaps even too much) at the cost of making PvP games much more heavy duty (againa as witp...)

No, they don't. I've discussing this at some length on the AAR about my game against Q-Ball. I even drafted Reaction rules a long time ago, but unfortunately, no any more major changes will be done on game mechanics until WitW.

I'm trying to see how I can counter - as in avoiding mass pocketing - making full use of Reserve mechanics... If I'm successful with that, I'm willing to write a guide.
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I don't see any historical justification for why full strength forces with an adequate amount of vehicles and fuel should perform worse by definition in 1941 than in 1942.

In comparison, Soviet units in 1942 are worse than in Autumn 1941. Morale and experience levels are king, vehicles, equipment and fuel are window dressing.
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
A large part of the problems some Soviet players are experiencing seems to be because their defensive preparations are inadequate or simply poor. Placing 3 unit stacks at the frontline with little to no defensive in depth behind them is just giving the Germans free pockets.

Indeed, the problem is how to implement that notion of "defense in depth" with the current ruleset. Such a defense in depth should suck out of German Motorized units enough MP's as to avoid the kind of cavalcades they can do (like "raiding" Hex ownership), or better, to avoid that kind of "strike deep, then retreat to start line" which can be done with ease. Causing substantial losses in the process will be perhaps harder to come by.

The 3 unit stacks thing has more to do with assigning excessive value with high fort levels in the front line. That, and being caught by surprise, of course [:)]
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by Encircled »

I'm surprised anyone is surprised

Just looking at the changes in 1.05 means that '42 is going to be really, really tough on the Soviets.

Plan ahead, get your defensive lines sorted, recon like mad, identify his Mechanised forces, and think about how you are going to last.


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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Encircled
I'm surprised anyone is surprised

Just looking at the changes in 1.05 means that '42 is going to be really, really tough on the Soviets.

The timing of the attacks is something one can't really foresee. Regarding performance, yes, it's hardly surprising.
ORIGINAL: Encircled
Plan ahead, get your defensive lines sorted, recon like mad, identify his Mechanised forces, and think about how you are going to last.

Good reminders and good advice. However what is lacking are good guidelines (as in examples or case studies) that show how to develop a decent defensive plan grounded on 1.05 game mechanics. That's quite hard to come by [;)]

As Klydon said, Soviet players have to do a lot of homework!
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by ComradeP »

In comparison, Soviet units in 1942 are worse than in Autumn 1941. Morale and experience levels are king, vehicles, equipment and fuel are window dressing.

Von Beanie and me were both commenting on the effectiveness of German forces, not on the effectiveness of Soviet forces.

I also don't believe in the theory that Soviet units are worse per default in 1942 than in 1941, it all depends on how you use them.
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
In comparison, Soviet units in 1942 are worse than in Autumn 1941. Morale and experience levels are king, vehicles, equipment and fuel are window dressing.

Von Beanie and me were both commenting on the effectiveness of German forces, not on the effectiveness of Soviet forces.

It's all about the relative efficiency. The Germans conserve it easier, the Soviets well might lose it. Analyzing one of the two sides in isolation, is a non-starter.
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I also don't believe in the theory that Soviet units are worse per default in 1942 than in 1941, it all depends on how you use them.

Not by default, but certainly after several weeks of intense operations during blizzard, followed by a possibly powerful German riposte. Four turns of mud and then four turns of on/off mud, don't really help much.
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by Encircled »

Well, I have a plan, and I'm about to start '42 against an Axis player whose had a good, but not brilliant '41.

If it works, then I'll happily stick it on here!
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Well, I have a plan, and I'm about to start '42 against an Axis player whose had a good, but not brilliant '41.

If it works, then I'll happily stick it on here!

The more the merrier, indeed. And if it doesn't work, it would be a good idea to analyze why it didn't. Are you keeping an AAR?
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by Encircled »

He is, I'm not

Its a time thing for me, as I've barely got time to play the game with a two and a four year old wanting to watch Disney and Pegga Pig on my PC all the time.[:)]
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Encircled
Its a time thing for me, as I've barely got time to play the game with a two and a four year old wanting to watch Disney and Pegga Pig on my PC all the time.[:)]

Time to buy a laptop? [:)]
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by Encircled »

Possibly, but lets be honest, most people have tight budgets at the moment!
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Possibly, but lets be honest, most people have tight budgets at the moment!

Hard times, indeed [:(]
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by ComradeP »

It's all about the relative efficiency. The Germans conserve it easier, the Soviets well might lose it. Analyzing one of the two sides in isolation, is a non-starter.

German mobile unit efficiency is fairly easy to keep in shape, but German infantry efficiency is going to be worse by default than in 1941.

Again: a lot depends on how you play. If you fight, say, an 8 turn front-wide blizzard offensive as the Soviets and use the rest of the turns to prepare for the snow turns, whilst only making limited attacks, and make sure the Germans can't bulldoze through fatigued and understrength 3 unit stacks in the snow turns, the Soviets are more likely to be stronger in 1942 than in 1941.
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
It's all about the relative efficiency. The Germans conserve it easier, the Soviets well might lose it. Analyzing one of the two sides in isolation, is a non-starter.

German mobile unit efficiency is fairly easy to keep in shape, but German infantry efficiency is going to be worse by default than in 1941.

That's something that needs to be accounted for in the defensive plans, indeed.
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Again: a lot depends on how you play. If you fight, say, an 8 turn front-wide blizzard offensive as the Soviets and use the rest of the turns to prepare for the snow turns, whilst only making limited attacks, and make sure the Germans can't bulldoze through fatigued and understrength 3 unit stacks in the snow turns,


Those rested and strong units might be hard to come by, and it's also hard to have them deployed covering all possible axis.

I could only do that on one axis (where disasters were averted).
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
the Soviets are more likely to be stronger in 1942 than in 1941.

Yes, but you mean April 1942? September 1942? December 1942? If you said "more likely to be stronger by Autumn 1942" I would agree with you. The problem we have to deal with is the six months between March and September (or rather, four months, since April & May aren't the best of times for any kind of operations).
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by Flaviusx »

Reserve option is crippled by the abysmal Soviet initiative ratings. If it's not an SU, don't expect much. You have only a handful of leaders with adequate initiative ratings.

The Soviets substitute depth for reserves.

Between the long turns, the abstractions of IGOUGO, the crazy mobility of the Germans with proper use of HQ buildups, and the zombie like state of the Red Army, well, it is what it is.

The key here is keep massive strategic reserves. Always have a trump available to respond to Axis moves. Always. These strategic reserves should all be training like it's going out of style, too. (You need to be 10+ hexes away from the front for best results.) Morale and experience is indeed king, and you have to do whatever you can to diminish the gap between yourself and the Axis. The 1942 NM is craptastic, and training is your best answer to that.
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by Baelfiin »

'42 as the russians is another summer of nail biting for sure. I think it is possible to limit what you lose as the russian, but the germans can generate a war of movement wherever they want to. Not _everywhere_ as in '41, but they can pick a spot and blow up the russian line.
Its like playing chicken, the germans have to think about how far they want to drive and how aggresive they want to be, while the russian has to consider the effects of any counter-attack in terms of what he can afford to lose in a potential pocket the next turn.
As a russian player don't think that its all fun and games after '41. 1942 is going to be a challenge albeit not quite demoralizing as '41 can be.
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RE: A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

Post by karonagames »

Well, it's good to see that Soviet players are no longer sitting smugly behind 4 deep, lvl4 entrenchments that the axis have no chance of cracking.

I am just about to commence my Fall Blau, and it looks like some of the comments above apply - I have very few infantry divisions that look capable of long term offensive operations, and my AFV numbers are barely close to what the axis started 1942 with historically, so there is no way I have the same offensive power as 1941, but I do have the potential offered by strategic surprise, because my opponent does not know my objectives and I have the capacity to redeploy a complete panzer army to any sector of the front. The only thing he knows that I know is that I need Rostov to get AGA and AGB to sort out my C&C.

It looks like the motorised divisions will have to carry out my offensive operations. My mud offensive indicates that there is still a significant amount of fragility in the Red Army units. I am anticipating an interesting game of cat and mouse as I attempt to mis-direct my opponent as to my true objectives for 1942.

I have managed to keep the Red Army below 4.5m as of turn 47, and I have destroyed 50+ divisions since November that he will have to re-buy with APs, so I hope my strategy to apply AP and manpower pressure will pay off. I aim to take at least 150 manpower points and capture a minimum of 1m prisoners before the end of September 1942.
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