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RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain

 
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RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/11/2012 6:25:21 AM   
JeffK


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From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
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The map needs improving, what, another 5 years of waiting??

Having played board games for almost 40 years, I am of the opinion that unless it adds to the game dont add it. As long as the terrain effects table replicates what is on the map it doesnt matter.
In WITP & AE there is immense effort in ship sillouettes and plane tops and sides, they add 0% to playing the game.
Sorry to say, but the effort being put in to provide a history/background on counters by Warspite1 and others doesnt make the game run any better.
BFTB has a unit history on some units, those without it work just as well.

The only time I'd argue for a map change is when it is inaccurate


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Post #: 31
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/11/2012 7:53:23 AM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3572
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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The map needs improving, what, another 5 years of waiting??

Having played board games for almost 40 years, I am of the opinion that unless it adds to the game dont add it. As long as the terrain effects table replicates what is on the map it doesnt matter.
In WITP & AE there is immense effort in ship sillouettes and plane tops and sides, they add 0% to playing the game.
Sorry to say, but the effort being put in to provide a history/background on counters by Warspite1 and others doesnt make the game run any better.
BFTB has a unit history on some units, those without it work just as well.

The only time I'd argue for a map change is when it is inaccurate

I agree with you about the map.

I do want to say, though, that the unit write-ups that Rob (warspite1) creates, while they don't make the game run any batter, are a brilliant addition to the game. More importantly, they do not take any time away from completing the game, since they are created completely on a volunteer basis. I can't speak for Rob, but it is my guess that this is what pleases him most to work on, and allows him to contribute to the process in a unique way.

I don't actually know how much actual "testing" of the game Rob has done, since I'm relatively new to the crew (about 8 months on the team), but for those beta-testers who have been working on this game for years, sometimes a change of pace is necessary. That may mean switching to doing unit write-ups for a while, or playing a different scenario, or even taking a few months off.

The map, however, would require time that would take away from progress on the game, which is part of the reason I agree with you. The other part is that I happen to like it the way it is.

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(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 32
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/11/2012 2:12:15 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The map needs improving, what, another 5 years of waiting??

Having played board games for almost 40 years, I am of the opinion that unless it adds to the game dont add it. As long as the terrain effects table replicates what is on the map it doesnt matter.
In WITP & AE there is immense effort in ship sillouettes and plane tops and sides, they add 0% to playing the game.
Sorry to say, but the effort being put in to provide a history/background on counters by Warspite1 and others doesnt make the game run any better.
BFTB has a unit history on some units, those without it work just as well.

The only time I'd argue for a map change is when it is inaccurate


No worries, mate. Aaron has been showing a lot screen shots of the map, and other player interface elements (e.g., forms). I haven't spent more than a day of two on the map over the past 3 years. The same is true for the units/counters.

I am not involved in the unit writeups, other than as an interested reader - reading most of them when they are posted in this forum.

The critical path is fixing bugs and NetPlay.

[The hammer and sickle are probably USSR defensive chits. That screen shot in post #30 is over 6 years out-of-date.]

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 33
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/11/2012 5:24:39 PM   
Orm


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quote:

[The hammer and sickle are probably USSR defensive chits. That screen shot in post #30 is over 6 years out-of-date.]

The picture is from a WIF version before FE. My guess is that the picture is taken around 1990 - 95.

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Post #: 34
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/11/2012 6:23:45 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4697
Joined: 5/8/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

I think they are beautiful... Not much more to be said on the matter, really.


+1


++++2.75


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Post #: 35
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/13/2012 2:58:53 AM   
morgil


Posts: 114
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There is one thing that bugs me everytime i look at the WIF map, and that is the placement of the UK, other than that the maps are great.
Its prolly a sign that im getting old...


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Post #: 36
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/13/2012 3:09:37 AM   
krupp_88mm


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I'll have to be honest here, the game does look really interesting, even though ive never played the board game. But the map look like absolute ****. I understand maybe some of you enjoy it for sentimental reasons, but it is beyond terrible, if there is any reason i wouldnt play this game its because the terrible map will give me a headache, just reading the aar and looking at the map gives me a headache. I would advise you to fix this but i understand it will require a large amount of time and artistic skills and you already have a million things to do, so it most likely will never happen. I hope there is a way to mod the hex images when you release the game, a way to assign pictures to individual hex spaces, so i can paint a beautiful map for it.

also the unit counters look very ugly, those can hopefully be modded too?

can we still play online games with modded game files in the images? this may be make or break for me on this game. I dont mean to insult you but honestly cannot stand the terrain and the other excuses dont hold up to me except the time and effort one. The question about differnt zoom levels you can make one vectored painting at max zoom level, and use vectors for each terrain type road ect. to apply it to all the other zooms, and just make quick tweaks to make sure its still displays correctly so you only have to do the work one time and it should come out just fine.

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 1/13/2012 3:10:28 AM >


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Post #: 37
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/13/2012 5:48:49 AM   
morgil


Posts: 114
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From: Bergen, Norway
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Im sorry, you but you cant my little pony about the place and complain about others graphics at the same time.
Its just one of those things that are not done.

How would you like the terrain to look like, if the current one gives you a headache ?
Obviously its not the pastel colours, or the cleanliness.
Have you talked to your doctor about this ?
Too much yellow yellow and pink can damage the retina, and cause headaches.


< Message edited by morgil -- 1/13/2012 6:04:40 AM >


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Post #: 38
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/13/2012 7:15:28 AM   
Patton_71

 

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I guess my concern with the maps is of a different nature.

And forgive me if this has been discussed before, but now that the Asian map is full-sized, it seems to me that this has had an unintended effect on game balance. With the lowering of the movement rates to the European level, along with the size increase, the Chinese front is much more a war of maneuver than ever before. With the Chi-coms only having 5 moves at most, and facing a now suddenly much more mobile enemy, with much more area to defend, I am concerned that the Chinese front can only be saved by immobilizing the USSR prior to Barbarossa. Looking at the current AAR example being run by Red Prince, the drain in the capability of Russian deployments are drastic, but still the Chinese are having difficulty matching Japanese maneuverability.

One of my personal life rules is not to raise a complaint without posing a possible solution. My suggestion is this: for every USSR land move allocated to the Chi-coms, they may move 2 units. This still allows an effect upon the Soviets, but since the Chinese front has changed from a WWI style 'hunker down and hang on' game when using the original maps to one of maneuver, I think this to be a fair compromise.

Any thoughts?

Patton

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Post #: 39
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/13/2012 6:09:24 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18325
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patton_71

I guess my concern with the maps is of a different nature.

And forgive me if this has been discussed before, but now that the Asian map is full-sized, it seems to me that this has had an unintended effect on game balance. With the lowering of the movement rates to the European level, along with the size increase, the Chinese front is much more a war of maneuver than ever before. With the Chi-coms only having 5 moves at most, and facing a now suddenly much more mobile enemy, with much more area to defend, I am concerned that the Chinese front can only be saved by immobilizing the USSR prior to Barbarossa. Looking at the current AAR example being run by Red Prince, the drain in the capability of Russian deployments are drastic, but still the Chinese are having difficulty matching Japanese maneuverability.

One of my personal life rules is not to raise a complaint without posing a possible solution. My suggestion is this: for every USSR land move allocated to the Chi-coms, they may move 2 units. This still allows an effect upon the Soviets, but since the Chinese front has changed from a WWI style 'hunker down and hang on' game when using the original maps to one of maneuver, I think this to be a fair compromise.

Any thoughts?

Patton

My sincerest apologies to Aaron here. I come from the world of tournament chess where after each game the players sit down and criticize the 'heck' out of each other's play.

---

Aaron wasn't very good at land defense so using his AAR as an indication of the Chinese having a hopeless position regardless of what they do isn't justified by the AAR. Take a look at what happened to France, Spain, Gibraltar, and Egypt. Would you make the claim that all of those countries are doomed to fall to the Axis before the end of 1940?

Yes, the scale has changed the action in China significantly. In fact, there are 6 times as many hexes in China now. But there is excellent defensive terrain, with a series of frontlines possible that are virtually all mountain hexes.

In the AAR:
1 - the Nationalist Chinese set up too far forward without regard to them being cut off. That let Japan penetrate the frontline in several places and destroy most of the Nationalist army with high odds attacks. Then the Japanese had an easy time of advancing into the Chinese interior.
2 - the Chinese did not make good use of the mountain terrain and alpine hexsides when forming their defensive lines.
3 - the Nationalist Chinese gave up hexes by the score rather than let Japan make a single good attack on a hex.
4 - having evacuated the mountain terrain, the Nationalist Chinese ended up making their last stand defending in clear hexes.
5 - Instead of the Communist Chinese retreating back to Lanchow where they could have held a frontline, they defended Sian, letting the Japanese get behind them so that they were surrounded and defended in a circle.
6 - The Chinese placed its only oil point in the frontline, letting it be destroyed (captured?). This made reorganization of the Chinese HQ's impossible, so once Mao became disorganized he remained disorganized and immobile (in clear terrain).
7 - I don't know what happened to the Chinese fighter, but it didn't last very long.
8 - By retreating, the Chinese gave the Japanese maximum mobility for positioning their units for attacking. When the Japanese are locked in enemy ZOCs, their 3 movement units are hard pressed to rearrange themselves to optimize attacks and/or ooze through openings in the lines. As it was, the Japanese needed to commit 3 HQ's to keep their units in supply, even after the Nationalist interior cities fell.
9 - partisans were never a concern here because the Chinese fled from the Japanese, so there were always a lot of Japanese out of enemy ZOCs to 'garrison' against partisans.

China is difficult to play, both in WIF FE and in MWIF. It doesn't take very many mistakes before the Chinese are reeling from the Japanese onslaught. But that is true in WIF FE too. Have you ever tried to hold the coastal hexes as the Chinese?

As for the Communist Chinese having too few land moves available, that wasn't a problem in the AAR game until the Nationalist Chinese had virtually disappeared from the map. Also, Aaron preferred to conduct a mobile defense (which requires a lot of land moves), retreating from the Japanese instead of holding onto mountain hexes and forcing the Japanese to attack strong points.


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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Patton_71)
Post #: 40
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/13/2012 7:43:05 PM   
Centuur


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Please Steve ... You should have said: Aaron doesn't know how to defend yet, since he is a newbie player. However: he will slowly learn how to do so... I expect him to become a very good player after a couple of games. It's the way he's moving around with the Axis forces that gives me this impression. The fact that he isn't playing against an opponent in his AAR is making things difficult for him now.

Even in tournament chess, players still are keeping up appearances. Always be polite in the after-game discussions...

Without having played this large scale map, you are right with you're analysis here. It was the Chinese setup which screwed the Chinese in the AAR. Nothing else. Imagine a Chinese set up in mountain and city hexes, with Chiang just behind the lines and the oil in the Western part of China and you get an entire different game in Nationalist China. Yes, the map would mean that the defense is going to be more mobile than in WiF. However: I don't think it is going to get easier for the Japanese, because of the fact that there are more hexes in China. Partisans can appear more easily now, than in WiF, on hexes blocking supply lines. CAV units will become much more valuable to both sides, for there large movement factors. I think the larger map is going to make this front a lot more interesting than it is in WiF, where you usually end up fighting against solid defense lines with not a lot of movement possible, due to the high movement costs of the WiF map.



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Post #: 41
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/13/2012 9:43:43 PM   
BallyJ

 

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There is nothing wrong with the map.
The counters are excellent.
China will be different but I am looking forward to the challenge.
Lets get on with making the game work.
regards John

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Post #: 42
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/14/2012 8:12:44 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3572
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Patton_71

I guess my concern with the maps is of a different nature.

And forgive me if this has been discussed before, but now that the Asian map is full-sized, it seems to me that this has had an unintended effect on game balance. With the lowering of the movement rates to the European level, along with the size increase, the Chinese front is much more a war of maneuver than ever before. With the Chi-coms only having 5 moves at most, and facing a now suddenly much more mobile enemy, with much more area to defend, I am concerned that the Chinese front can only be saved by immobilizing the USSR prior to Barbarossa. Looking at the current AAR example being run by Red Prince, the drain in the capability of Russian deployments are drastic, but still the Chinese are having difficulty matching Japanese maneuverability.

One of my personal life rules is not to raise a complaint without posing a possible solution. My suggestion is this: for every USSR land move allocated to the Chi-coms, they may move 2 units. This still allows an effect upon the Soviets, but since the Chinese front has changed from a WWI style 'hunker down and hang on' game when using the original maps to one of maneuver, I think this to be a fair compromise.

Any thoughts?

Patton

My sincerest apologies to Aaron here. I come from the world of tournament chess where after each game the players sit down and criticize the 'heck' out of each other's play.

---

Aaron wasn't very good at land defense so using his AAR as an indication of the Chinese having a hopeless position regardless of what they do isn't justified by the AAR. Take a look at what happened to France, Spain, Gibraltar, and Egypt. Would you make the claim that all of those countries are doomed to fall to the Axis before the end of 1940?

Yes, the scale has changed the action in China significantly. In fact, there are 6 times as many hexes in China now. But there is excellent defensive terrain, with a series of frontlines possible that are virtually all mountain hexes.

In the AAR:
1 - the Nationalist Chinese set up too far forward without regard to them being cut off. That let Japan penetrate the frontline in several places and destroy most of the Nationalist army with high odds attacks. Then the Japanese had an easy time of advancing into the Chinese interior.
2 - the Chinese did not make good use of the mountain terrain and alpine hexsides when forming their defensive lines.
3 - the Nationalist Chinese gave up hexes by the score rather than let Japan make a single good attack on a hex.
4 - having evacuated the mountain terrain, the Nationalist Chinese ended up making their last stand defending in clear hexes.
5 - Instead of the Communist Chinese retreating back to Lanchow where they could have held a frontline, they defended Sian, letting the Japanese get behind them so that they were surrounded and defended in a circle.
6 - The Chinese placed its only oil point in the frontline, letting it be destroyed (captured?). This made reorganization of the Chinese HQ's impossible, so once Mao became disorganized he remained disorganized and immobile (in clear terrain).
7 - I don't know what happened to the Chinese fighter, but it didn't last very long.
8 - By retreating, the Chinese gave the Japanese maximum mobility for positioning their units for attacking. When the Japanese are locked in enemy ZOCs, their 3 movement units are hard pressed to rearrange themselves to optimize attacks and/or ooze through openings in the lines. As it was, the Japanese needed to commit 3 HQ's to keep their units in supply, even after the Nationalist interior cities fell.
9 - partisans were never a concern here because the Chinese fled from the Japanese, so there were always a lot of Japanese out of enemy ZOCs to 'garrison' against partisans.

China is difficult to play, both in WIF FE and in MWIF. It doesn't take very many mistakes before the Chinese are reeling from the Japanese onslaught. But that is true in WIF FE too. Have you ever tried to hold the coastal hexes as the Chinese?

As for the Communist Chinese having too few land moves available, that wasn't a problem in the AAR game until the Nationalist Chinese had virtually disappeared from the map. Also, Aaron preferred to conduct a mobile defense (which requires a lot of land moves), retreating from the Japanese instead of holding onto mountain hexes and forcing the Japanese to attack strong points.


No apologies required -- I haven't yet learned how to defend effectively, which is why I've been asking for thoughts in the AAR about the coming Barbarossa.

Also, and my own sincere apologies for pointing this out, Steve, I took the setup directly from one of your posts in the Chinese AIO thread. The reason I did this was because I have yet to make a successful setup for the Chinese Nationalists. Unfortunately, I didn't read far enough ahead to see the concern that were presented regarding your suggested setup.

To respond to a few of your notes:
quote:

3 - the Nationalist Chinese gave up hexes by the score rather than let Japan make a single good attack on a hex.

This mistake was brought on by some reading I did regarding Barbarossa defense strategies. At the time I started the AAR the RAW says practically nothing that applies to the expanded map, and I just didn't want to read through dozens (?) of pages of Chinese AIO thoughts before getting started. This made me think that pulling back a hex or so at a time would allow me to ZOC and prevent the "oozing through" of Japanese forces. I should have realized that defense in one region doesn't necessarily work well in another.
quote:

5 - Instead of the Communist Chinese retreating back to Lanchow where they could have held a frontline, they defended Sian, letting the Japanese get behind them so that they were surrounded and defended in a circle.

I stil disagree with this. By the time it was clear that a defense had to be set up (whch came a turn later than it should have, perhaps), there was no possible way . . . repeat no possible way for me to get the needed units to the Lanchow region without having them picked off in single-stacks. If I tried to use double stacks, I would have lost both cities to Japan and been trapped in the middle. From the positions they started at when I tried to begin the retreat, and with the movement points available to each unit, there was no way 5 moves an impulse could get me to Lanchow.
quote:

6 - The Chinese placed its only oil point in the frontline, letting it be destroyed (captured?). This made reorganization of the Chinese HQ's impossible, so once Mao became disorganized he remained disorganized and immobile (in clear terrain).

The Oil Point placement was just plain dumb, but then I didn't realize I could place it in a Communist city, since it is set up by the Nationalist Chinese. In fact, I don't think I could have.
quote:

7 - I don't know what happened to the Chinese fighter, but it didn't last very long.

I could look it up, but I won't bother. It lasted roughly 3 turns and was shot down. If I remember correctly, it took one of the Japanese FTRs with it.
-----
While I completely agree with Steve that the AAR should not be taken as an indication of the futility of the Chinese cause on the expanded Asian map, I still do have concerns about it. It seems to me that in order to either double-stack at setup, or even single-stack in mountainous terrain in a manner that would keep the Japanese from slipping through, the defense would have to start the game behind Kweilin, which gives up a lot of terrain to the Japanese right off the bat.
-----
Centuur, I do appreciate your support. Steve and I have talked about this, actually. Offensive operations tend to be easier to learn and adapt than defensive operations, and while I expect you're right that I'll learn how to conduct defensive operations well eventually, it's probably going to take me quite some time. The Barbarossa AAR that Orm and I ran taught me that defense played well can be very frustrating to an offense-oriented player, and I hope to bring some of what he taught me to the upcoming Barbarossa. The truth is that I am much better at exploiting opportunities offensively than defensively.

That said, I do have an opportunity to put that entire western force near Sian out of supply, but I haven't decided if it will be a sufficient benefit. I have to figure out if the Japanese can manage to re-establish supply within an impulse or two before making that decision.

Best regards to all.

-Aaron (the fool who decided an AAR would be fun)

_____________________________

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 43
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/14/2012 10:18:14 PM   
krupp_88mm


Posts: 411
Joined: 10/13/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Im sorry, you but you cant my little pony about the place and complain about others graphics at the same time.
Its just one of those things that are not done.

How would you like the terrain to look like, if the current one gives you a headache ?
Obviously its not the pastel colours, or the cleanliness.
Have you talked to your doctor about this ?
Too much yellow yellow and pink can damage the retina, and cause headaches.


but i like to horse about

yes i have spoken to my doctor and im on medication

yes there is too much yellow i agree, but its not a map and at least its not repetitious

look at the hex's especially the clear and forest hex's... its spasm inducing and repetitive, not even a single change, it makes the map look cluttered, look at the France area, and the mountain hex's look like they suffered a bad case of over sharpening, just applying some smudging / blurring to the whole map would make it look slightly better, and the rivers are just blue lines, and the rail lines look very non rail like, yellow as you said the segments in them look very strange, i would make them darker and change the segment look, and the unit counters all being squares with all the same bright colors for a country..

here's an idea, apply a dual/triple marker system, enemy markers are diamonds friendly markers are squares, and neutral markers can be triangles or rectangles or hexagonal, switch out the markers depending on which team you are viewing the map from

and finally the lack of a color mask for controlled hexes to replace that ugly flag maker ON EVERY HEX.... it could even be as simple as changing the hex outline color instead of plopping that ugly flag down everywhere, but i would prefer a mask







< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 1/14/2012 10:22:02 PM >

(in reply to morgil)
Post #: 44
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/14/2012 10:30:59 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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To be honest: I love the map, the way it is now. In a wargame on the board (and this is a computerised version of a boardgame), the one thing you have to see at once is where the units are. All other things on the map aren't as important as the units. If you look at the AAR, you see that the units stand out of the map and therefore give the information immediately to the player.

When you are playing a war game, you spent a long time looking at the map. Therefore: you don't want every hex to look different from another, if the information given by the hex is the same. I don't want to have different type of woods, mountains, desert, sea, lake and so on in the hexes. It diverts the eye of the important thing here. Cluttering the map is what would happen, if you make all hexes different.
Also: I wouldn't want to change colour of a hex when control changes. Problem with that is the colourblind. MWIF takes this into account somewhat, by using hard colours for units and pastel for the map. I don't want to see more colour (indeed: I would opt to see less colour...). The flags are a good indicator of who controls what.



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Post #: 45
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/14/2012 10:51:08 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3572
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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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Additionally, the flags can be turned off. Yes, this means you don't know what is controlled by which country, but at least it gets rid of the "ugly flags" is that's what you want.

As for changing counter shape, that isn't possible. The counters each contain a lot of information that is needed for gameplay. Players know where to look on the counter for the numbers they need to know. If you change the counter shape, the numbers will be in different places. It would create too much confusion. The colors should be all you need to figure out which is an enemy and which is a friendly unit.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 46
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/14/2012 10:58:26 PM   
brian brian

 

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well I thought it would be OK to bump this thread after it had sat there for a month, and still almost posted the WiF5 image in the Chester thread just because. I thought anyone interested had had their say. I was most intrigued by the little picture of Manstein w/3 movement points. Old school.

I think opinions on the map will mostly be decided by whether you have ever played wargames with cardboard counters and paper maps, or just on computer screens that owe a lot to the miniatures gaming experience as someone mentioned. My computer gaming experience was only ever on old, old titles like Eastern Front: 1941 on the Atari video gaming console. Until CyberBoard came out, and I could play any of my old wargames I want on the 'puter. I will say this: a fully set-up game of World in Flames with all the counters deployed around the world is quite a pleasing sight, and MWiF has only improved on that. I'm not sure video gamers will ever appreciate things that don't move.


The question about the new map affecting the USSR is an interesting one. I don't think the AAR does much to answer that though. I didn't follow it across the map, but for the most part the Chinese Communists don't have to move all that much. They have one place to defend, and excellent terrain to defend it in, as well as plenty of bad weather to keep things slow around their front. A major threat to their rear areas just isn't going to be seen that often I don't think, especially in the summer of 1940; summers after that will most often see the USSR being an active major power and then the question is moot. I have played WiF several times on a euro-scale map of China using the CWiF map, and didn't see any additional problems for the Russians as a result. New Communist units have to occasionally get positioned into the line, and they might ponder some sort of flanking manuever, or a Partisan might want to move around, but I don't think any of those decisions are all that new, nor represent an increased burden on the Russian decision-making solely due to the scale change.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 47
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/15/2012 1:18:23 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18325
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Im sorry, you but you cant my little pony about the place and complain about others graphics at the same time.
Its just one of those things that are not done.

How would you like the terrain to look like, if the current one gives you a headache ?
Obviously its not the pastel colours, or the cleanliness.
Have you talked to your doctor about this ?
Too much yellow yellow and pink can damage the retina, and cause headaches.


but i like to horse about

yes i have spoken to my doctor and im on medication

yes there is too much yellow i agree, but its not a map and at least its not repetitious

look at the hex's especially the clear and forest hex's... its spasm inducing and repetitive, not even a single change, it makes the map look cluttered, look at the France area, and the mountain hex's look like they suffered a bad case of over sharpening, just applying some smudging / blurring to the whole map would make it look slightly better, and the rivers are just blue lines, and the rail lines look very non rail like, yellow as you said the segments in them look very strange, i would make them darker and change the segment look, and the unit counters all being squares with all the same bright colors for a country..

here's an idea, apply a dual/triple marker system, enemy markers are diamonds friendly markers are squares, and neutral markers can be triangles or rectangles or hexagonal, switch out the markers depending on which team you are viewing the map from

and finally the lack of a color mask for controlled hexes to replace that ugly flag maker ON EVERY HEX.... it could even be as simple as changing the hex outline color instead of plopping that ugly flag down everywhere, but i would prefer a mask







Am I correct in assuming that you have never played World in Flames in any form?

There are hundreds of countries, most of which have units with unique color backgrounds.

There are hexside borders for countries, sub-countries, rivers, canals, alpine ridges, weather zones, sea areas, forts, and lakes. Throwing in additional colors as hex outlines to provide even more information isn't going to make the map easier to read.

If you change the terrain colors for hexes that for all game functions are identical, then players will wonder why the hexes look different. For example, how about changing the colors on traffic lights? That Red-Yellow-Green combination is so boring and repetitive. If you want to USE the map, it has to communicate information quickly and easily.

Enemy units (not 'markers', those have a different meaning in WIF), depend on which major power you are currently controlling. For example, France may be at war with Germany but not with Italy. Now Italy could still be at war with the Commonwealth. So as you switch from controlling Germany to Italy, the 'enemy' changes. It is even worse when Finland goes to war with the USSR. Finland is controlled by Germany and Germany could be a peace with the USSR.

Those annoying flags can be toggled off. They are there to provide information when you want it. There is a difference between a hex that the Commonwealth 'owns' (e.g., in the United Kingdom) and one that is owned by a minor country that is aligned to the Commonwealth (e.g., Belgium). Players need to know the difference at a glance. Adding more color coding to differentiate these subtleties adds an increased burden on the meaning of colors.

In fact, consider that 10% of the players are going to have difficulty differentiating some colors to start with.

I could go on in this vein. There are numerous elements displayed on the map, all of which are necessary for the players to be able to see clearly. The primary role of the map is functionality. Beautiful color schemes are secondary - at best.

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(in reply to krupp_88mm)
Post #: 48
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/15/2012 1:44:30 AM   
krupp_88mm


Posts: 411
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Im sorry, you but you cant my little pony about the place and complain about others graphics at the same time.
Its just one of those things that are not done.

How would you like the terrain to look like, if the current one gives you a headache ?
Obviously its not the pastel colours, or the cleanliness.
Have you talked to your doctor about this ?
Too much yellow yellow and pink can damage the retina, and cause headaches.


but i like to horse about

yes i have spoken to my doctor and im on medication

yes there is too much yellow i agree, but its not a map and at least its not repetitious

look at the hex's especially the clear and forest hex's... its spasm inducing and repetitive, not even a single change, it makes the map look cluttered, look at the France area, and the mountain hex's look like they suffered a bad case of over sharpening, just applying some smudging / blurring to the whole map would make it look slightly better, and the rivers are just blue lines, and the rail lines look very non rail like, yellow as you said the segments in them look very strange, i would make them darker and change the segment look, and the unit counters all being squares with all the same bright colors for a country..

here's an idea, apply a dual/triple marker system, enemy markers are diamonds friendly markers are squares, and neutral markers can be triangles or rectangles or hexagonal, switch out the markers depending on which team you are viewing the map from

and finally the lack of a color mask for controlled hexes to replace that ugly flag maker ON EVERY HEX.... it could even be as simple as changing the hex outline color instead of plopping that ugly flag down everywhere, but i would prefer a mask








Enemy units (not 'markers', those have a different meaning in WIF), depend on which major power you are currently controlling. For example, France may be at war with Germany but not with Italy. Now Italy could still be at war with the Commonwealth. So as you switch from controlling Germany to Italy, the 'enemy' changes. It is even worse when Finland goes to war with the USSR. Finland is controlled by Germany and Germany could be a peace with the USSR.



thats exactly why it would be so useful, so you can see who is against who each time you switch a country, i dont think you understand what im saying they will change to represent who is against who from the current perspective and it would be very easy to do that, a quick change in the unit tile background and some quick code to link that to allegiance, maybe like 2 days programing and editing at most


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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 49
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/15/2012 5:09:29 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18325
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Im sorry, you but you cant my little pony about the place and complain about others graphics at the same time.
Its just one of those things that are not done.

How would you like the terrain to look like, if the current one gives you a headache ?
Obviously its not the pastel colours, or the cleanliness.
Have you talked to your doctor about this ?
Too much yellow yellow and pink can damage the retina, and cause headaches.


but i like to horse about

yes i have spoken to my doctor and im on medication

yes there is too much yellow i agree, but its not a map and at least its not repetitious

look at the hex's especially the clear and forest hex's... its spasm inducing and repetitive, not even a single change, it makes the map look cluttered, look at the France area, and the mountain hex's look like they suffered a bad case of over sharpening, just applying some smudging / blurring to the whole map would make it look slightly better, and the rivers are just blue lines, and the rail lines look very non rail like, yellow as you said the segments in them look very strange, i would make them darker and change the segment look, and the unit counters all being squares with all the same bright colors for a country..

here's an idea, apply a dual/triple marker system, enemy markers are diamonds friendly markers are squares, and neutral markers can be triangles or rectangles or hexagonal, switch out the markers depending on which team you are viewing the map from

and finally the lack of a color mask for controlled hexes to replace that ugly flag maker ON EVERY HEX.... it could even be as simple as changing the hex outline color instead of plopping that ugly flag down everywhere, but i would prefer a mask








Enemy units (not 'markers', those have a different meaning in WIF), depend on which major power you are currently controlling. For example, France may be at war with Germany but not with Italy. Now Italy could still be at war with the Commonwealth. So as you switch from controlling Germany to Italy, the 'enemy' changes. It is even worse when Finland goes to war with the USSR. Finland is controlled by Germany and Germany could be a peace with the USSR.



thats exactly why it would be so useful, so you can see who is against who each time you switch a country, i dont think you understand what im saying they will change to represent who is against who from the current perspective and it would be very easy to do that, a quick change in the unit tile background and some quick code to link that to allegiance, maybe like 2 days programing and editing at most


Here is 1 page of 22 pages of unit bitmaps. Each unit is within a 96 by 96 pixel square (with rounded corners). These are all anti-aliased images so if you change the background color you have to change about a 2 pixel border around the entire air unit depiction (if you blow up the image of a single unit you will be able to see the non-intuitive anti-aliasing colors). Notice the range of background colors already being used - to represent different nationalities. The position of each air unit within the frame was adjusted pixel by pixel manually to allow for alphabetic and numeric information on the counter to be superimposed (the numeric information is dynamic during game play). There are also a small assortment of additional icons that appear on some units.

You might want to modify your estimate of two days at most.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 1/15/2012 5:12:05 AM >


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Post #: 50
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/15/2012 5:16:23 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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For example:






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 1/15/2012 5:19:03 AM >


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Post #: 51
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/25/2012 1:06:59 PM   
cherryfunk

 

Posts: 93
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The MWIF world map is 360 hexes wide and 195 hexes high. The game is designed for players who have a monitor 1024w by 768h pixels.

In other words you're designing the game as if it was still 1999? What percent of your customer base do you think still uses a monitor with native 1024x768 resolution?

The original poster is correct, the textures are garish and unappealing. As a potential purchaser of this game, I won't be buying it simply based on how it looks. And Krupp is right about the flags indicating hex ownership -- ugh, it looks so jumbled and confusing, in exactly the area where you need clarity. Control should be indicated by shading.

Perhaps you should get the Unity of Command guys to redesign all your graphics? (Or maybe the guy who created the War in the East map? That thing is a work of art...)

As a point of comparison, below are screenshots from the Commander: Europe at War Grand Strategy mod, which has a comparable scale, next to shots from MWiF. For me, the map and counters from Commander look much more appealing. Even a little thing like the transitions between terrain from one hex to another has a big impact on the naturalness of the map.





















< Message edited by cherryfunk -- 1/25/2012 2:14:35 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 52
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/25/2012 4:03:03 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 662
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline
Most of the WW2 PC games of today have better graphics but I have tried many of those and from my point of view they should have worried a lot more about the playability than the graphics because those that I have tried are boring and beer and pretzel games at the most.  Unity of Command is not one of those I don't know this game.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 1/25/2012 4:04:11 PM >


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(in reply to cherryfunk)
Post #: 53
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/25/2012 5:13:50 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18325
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cherryfunk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The MWIF world map is 360 hexes wide and 195 hexes high. The game is designed for players who have a monitor 1024w by 768h pixels.

In other words you're designing the game as if it was still 1999? What percent of your customer base do you think still uses a monitor with native 1024x768 resolution?

The original poster is correct, the textures are garish and unappealing. As a potential purchaser of this game, I won't be buying it simply based on how it looks. And Krupp is right about the flags indicating hex ownership -- ugh, it looks so jumbled and confusing, in exactly the area where you need clarity. Control should be indicated by shading.

Perhaps you should get the Unity of Command guys to redesign all your graphics? (Or maybe the guy who created the War in the East map? That thing is a work of art...)

As a point of comparison, below are screenshots from the Commander: Europe at War Grand Strategy mod, which has a comparable scale, next to shots from MWiF. For me, the map and counters from Commander look much more appealing. Even a little thing like the transitions between terrain from one hex to another has a big impact on the naturalness of the map.





















The other games have nice graphics for terrain, but those unit counters are very busy.

To my eye it looks like a lot of the unit information could have been placed around the edge of the counters as status indicators. Do the size of the NATO symbols convey information? Some of them appear to be smaller that others. Do all the colors for the circles in the lower left hand corner convey information? In some cases there are country indicators in the lower left hand corner (German crosses, Polish cross-hatch?), at other times what is in the lower left appears to convey something else.

But counters are very game specific. MWIF has 60+ unit types. Naval units can't simply show an icon of some ships at sea for every unit type. The games you showed here appear to require 6-7 numbers per counter to convey the unit information. That is way more than MWIF uses for land counters but about the same as for air and naval units.

As for the terrain, the maps you pictured appear to use both shading and dotted hex outlines to indicate which side controls the hexes. Original country boundaries are very fine white lines along the hexsides (I think). Those seem to be assumed when a river forms the borders. How are neutral countries handled? For game play in MWIF it is important to know not only which side controls a hex, but which country, and how it controls the hex (e.g., conquest or alignment). Given the large number of countries in MWIF (250+) any binary or trinary system isn't going to work. To use such a simple design would deny the players the information they need to play the game.

I don't see much in the way of icons in the hexes of the other games. WIF has 2 port types (minor & major), each of which has two main variations (iced-in possible or not) and the major ports can become damaged. There are 3 city types, 3 factory types (with up to 3 per hex), and 3 resource types. The factories can be non-functional, damaged, or moved. A single hex may contain a port, city, factory, and resource. If those details were superimposed on the terrain for the other games, I suspect they would lose some of their clean appearance.

The borders between the hexes of the other games appear to be fairly simple: country boundaries and control. MWIF includes sea area boundaries, weather zone boundaries, country boundaries, sub-country boundaries (e.g., eastern and western Poland), rivers, canals, all-sea hexsides, lake hexsides, fort hexsides (1 to 6 per hex), and alpine hexsides. That is a lot more information to communicate using graphics around a hex.

Terrain types seem to be comparable. MWIF has 14 and at what I can see, the other games probably have 10+. But the big difference is in the sheer number of hexes to be rendered graphically. WIF has 70,200 hexes. Even discounting 60% as all-sea, you end up with 25,000+ land hexes that need a graphic image of terrain. We have drawn 5000+ of those by hand (the coastal hexes), but doing the other 20,000+ with variegated hexsides when the adjacent terrain type is different would be cost-prohibitive. I looked into that closely when I started on this, but the combination and permutation of the possible adjacent terrain types is quite large (even allowing that jungle and desert are never adjacent). Given fewer terrain types and a limited area of conflict (e.g., Europe), I would have been willing to give it a shot. But 20,000+ more hexes drawn by hand? Sorry, it ain't gonna happen. I should add that in MWIF there are 7000+ hexes with hand drawn rivers and lakes (applied as an overlay).

My point is that MWIF requires presenting a lot more terrain information per hex (but less numeric information per counter). The result is that MWIF units can afford room for a little more art and text. Conversely, the amount of art that cam be packed into a MWIF hex is less. But more importantly, the sheer size of the MWIF map precludes having the terrain in each hex hand drawn.

[I also wonder whether the subtle differences in terrain shading in the other games has been tested by players who have trouble differentiating colors. MWIF terrain and unit colors have been.]

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Post #: 54
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/25/2012 5:45:53 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 3236
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cherryfunk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The MWIF world map is 360 hexes wide and 195 hexes high. The game is designed for players who have a monitor 1024w by 768h pixels.

In other words you're designing the game as if it was still 1999? What percent of your customer base do you think still uses a monitor with native 1024x768 resolution?

The original poster is correct, the textures are garish and unappealing. As a potential purchaser of this game, I won't be buying it simply based on how it looks. And Krupp is right about the flags indicating hex ownership -- ugh, it looks so jumbled and confusing, in exactly the area where you need clarity. Control should be indicated by shading.

Perhaps you should get the Unity of Command guys to redesign all your graphics? (Or maybe the guy who created the War in the East map? That thing is a work of art...)

As a point of comparison, below are screenshots from the Commander: Europe at War Grand Strategy mod, which has a comparable scale, next to shots from MWiF. For me, the map and counters from Commander look much more appealing. Even a little thing like the transitions between terrain from one hex to another has a big impact on the naturalness of the map.





















Oh my God? Did they ever made a map for a computergame like this? It looks terrible to one who is colorblind (and I am a bit). It's really, really awful.
No, I like the MWIF map a lot, because it is clear for me what is what. The only thing I have difficulties with, are the status symbols and the colors in them, since they are so damn small. Same things with the pipes of the factories (is it Blue or Red, well... I know what is what, since I've played the game on the table). I can live with that in MWIF, since it gives a lot of zoom possibility, thus making things clear.
I would never buy the game you are referring to, because of that terrible map and those terrible colors of the units...


< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/25/2012 5:47:06 PM >


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Post #: 55
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/25/2012 5:50:48 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3572
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quote:

My point is that MWIF requires presenting a lot more terrain information per hex (but less numeric information per counter). The result is that MWIF units can afford room for a little more art and text. Conversely, the amount of art that cam be packed into a MWIF hex is less. But more importantly, the sheer size of the MWIF map precludes having the terrain in each hex hand drawn.

[I also wonder whether the subtle differences in terrain shading in the other games has been tested by players who have trouble differentiating colors. MWIF terrain and unit colors have been.]


Don't forget to mention that MWiF naval unit counters can change sides, too, which means the numbers at the top of the counter have to be in a color that contrasts well with not only the counter's original owner, but for as many as 9 other owner color-sets.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/25/2012 5:51:18 PM >


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Post #: 56
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/25/2012 11:19:14 PM   
BallyJ

 

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The map is fine'
I find it easy to read.

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Post #: 57
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/26/2012 12:58:14 AM   
HansHafen

 

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Well, I like the map because that is the map that came with the boardgame, looks wise. That is what I am used to looking at. :)

(I like the other map for commander europe at war too. But if I want to look at it, I will play that game.)

Map is great for me.

No changey.

(in reply to BallyJ)
Post #: 58
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/26/2012 1:09:13 AM   
brian brian

 

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I have been meaning to ask about that hex in the Qattara Depression, the one in the lower row, three hexes from Cairo ... there is a small wisp of brown in that hex and it is hard to tell if you can thus move into it or not?

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Post #: 59
RE: The maps are dated - fix the terrain - 1/26/2012 2:03:21 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I have been meaning to ask about that hex in the Qattara Depression, the one in the lower row, three hexes from Cairo ... there is a small wisp of brown in that hex and it is hard to tell if you can thus move into it or not?

The slightest pollution by the Qattara Depression taints the entire hex. There 14 hand drawn Qattara hexes. Moving the cursor over the hex makes it obvious - the terrain under the cursor is shown on the main form.

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