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weapons tight - 11/28/2011 11:23:20 PM   
Dale H


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Watching the Harpoon for Dummies YouTube video AAR for the Dawn Patrol scenario. It was mentioned that Weapons Tight can be checked (or should be checked) but it really doesn't work. Is this true? After all this time & development this very basic command is broken & doesn't work? The AI ignores it? Really?
Post #: 1
RE: weapons tight - 11/29/2011 3:24:55 AM   
Dale H


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Hmm... I am having an The Emperor's New Clothes" experience here. The silence is deafening. You have gazillion scenarios but you can't order your missle boats to go weapons tight - not even in Dawn Patrol. Am I missing something? I would have thought that would have been one of the first things to have changed. I have not been at computer Harpoon (H3) since DOS days - it was a very long time ago - but it always used to amaze me that you had a basic posture setting the game engine ignored. Kind of snaps the suspending of disbelief from the get-go.

Am I missing something here?

Just lurking I guess.

(in reply to Dale H)
Post #: 2
RE: weapons tight - 11/29/2011 4:32:47 AM   
Vincenzo Beretta


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Dale,

since you saw the video on YouTube, it would probably be best to post your question at that site in order to receive the most educated and direct response

(in reply to Dale H)
Post #: 3
RE: weapons tight - 12/2/2011 2:12:59 AM   
Dale H


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Well, actually, there is a thread here announcing the Harpoon for Dummies YouTube site so, I think it is appropriate to post here.

Maybe it is not necessary to have a Weapons tight selection. Maybe you can play the game & it really doesn't make a bit of difference. However it always seemed to me it might be good to have the selection instead of letting the AI be in charge.

Maybe I am a Dummy & maybe I am saying something really stupid here but how hard would it have been to respond to this simple question? I am not trying to pick a fight. I just want to know really if selecting Weapons Tight does nothing & if it is necessary to have it at all in the first place & if so why hasn't it been changed.

I was thinking about a purchase.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

Dale,

since you saw the video on YouTube, it would probably be best to post your question at that site in order to receive the most educated and direct response


(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 4
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 2:44:41 AM   
Vincenzo Beretta


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From: Milan, Italy
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I announced the release of the new After-Action Report. I did not create it. Since your question is related to a specific aspect of the video, your best bet is to ask the video creator directly. I could give an answer, but it would not likely be as precise or accurate as possible.

(in reply to Dale H)
Post #: 5
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 3:16:20 AM   
Dale H


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No, the creator of the video said in the beginning that the Weapons Tight feature can be checked but the AI ignores it. Is this true?

If true then does it really make a difference in playing the game?

This is all I am asking. This is not a question about the creator of the Youtube video or that particular scenario. It is a question about H3 in general. Watch the Dawn Patrol movie to see what I mean. It is in the beginning.

Really kicking a dead horse here.

(in reply to Dale H)
Post #: 6
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 4:02:16 AM   
noguaranteeofsanity


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In the military 'weapons tight' is not the same as 'weapons hold'.

'Weapons tight' means to only engage contacts that have been positively identified as hostile, while 'weapons hold' means do not fire.  

For example, say radar picked up an unidentified air contact, under 'weapons tight', no unit would fire until it was positively identified as hostile, which might mean waiting until it was in visual range, if the contact was not emitting and did not fire.  

However if the human player saw that the contact was moving at mach 1.1, it obviously is not a civillan aircraft and the human player could choose to engage it, without waiting for the contact to be identified as a hostile aircraft.

Basically the 'weapons tight' functionality gives the player the choice of whether to engage a contact that has yet to be positively identified as hostile.

'Weapons hold' is not modelled in Harpoon, although in earler versions 'weapons tight' actually meant 'weapons hold'.  This was changed in the HUE version of Harpoon and did not please everyone, plus probably broke a few scenarios that were built around the old model, where 'weapons tight' actually meant 'weapons hold'.

As to the AI ignoring the 'weapons tight' setting, I imagine because there is no human player to override the 'weapons tight' order for the AI, it would be redundant and excessively restrict the AI in comparison to a human player, who would be able to approach AI units, avoid being identifed and engaged by the AI, until their units either launched their weapons, or were otherwise identifed as hostile by AI.

< Message edited by noguaranteeofsanity -- 12/3/2011 4:09:14 AM >

(in reply to Dale H)
Post #: 7
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 4:15:04 AM   
mikmyk


Posts: 5431
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

In the military 'weapons tight' is not the same as 'weapons hold'.

'Weapons tight' means to only engage contacts that have been positively identified as hostile, while 'weapons hold' means do not fire.  

For example, say radar picked up an unidentified air contact, under weapons tight, no unit would fire until it was positively identified as hostile, which might mean waiting until it was in visual range, if the contact was not emitting and did not fire.  

However if the human player saw that the contact was moving at mach 1.1, it obviously is not a civillan aircraft and the human player could choose to engage it, without waiting for the contact to be identified as a hostile aircraft.

Basically the weapons tight functionality gives the player the choice of whether to engage a contact that has yet to be positively identified as hostile.

'Weapons hold' is not modelled in Harpoon, although in earler versions 'weapons tight' actually meant 'weapons hold'.  This was changed in the HUE version of Harpoon and did not please everyone, plus probably broke a few scenarios that were built around the old model, where 'weapons tight' actually meant 'weapons hold'.

As to the AI ignoring the 'weapons tight' setting, I imagine because there is no human player to override the 'weapons tight' order for the AI, it would be redundant and excessively restrict the AI in comparison to a human player, who would be able to approach AI units, avoid being identifed and engaged by the AI, until their units either launched their weapons, or were otherwise identifed as hostile by AI.


First time I've ever heard it explained that way. Is this something that has happened in the last few releases?

I did have a pretty good understanding of the H3 AI at one point and I didn't know it made distinctions like that.



(in reply to noguaranteeofsanity)
Post #: 8
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 4:43:52 AM   
mikmyk


Posts: 5431
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dale H

No, the creator of the video said in the beginning that the Weapons Tight feature can be checked but the AI ignores it. Is this true?

If true then does it really make a difference in playing the game?

This is all I am asking. This is not a question about the creator of the Youtube video or that particular scenario. It is a question about H3 in general. Watch the Dawn Patrol movie to see what I mean. It is in the beginning.

Really kicking a dead horse here.


Not really sold yet by either party on this one but given Herman's posted a bunch of AAR videos on what seems to be a current version it must pretty playable.

I do check reviews and forums to make sure there's nothing critically wrong with games but most of my decision hinges on if I'll find it fun.

(in reply to Dale H)
Post #: 9
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 5:15:51 AM   
noguaranteeofsanity


Posts: 257
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From: Sydney, Australia
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Mykmyk, that was my understanding, although appears I may be wrong.   I am only picking up ANW 3.10 again with the release of the beta patch after taking a break of a few years, but remembered the issue was discussed during the 3.10 beta stage and found this post http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1470793, so thought i would try to answer Dale's question given the lack of responses from others.

After chceking the AGSI wiki and old ANW forum more exstensively, it appears only incoming missiles that are engaged under weapons tight and was changed during the beta, although the ROE settings are only available to the player and apply to plotted and unassigned units, so it is only AI units with a plotted mission that appear to ignore the setting, which may be what the video is referring too.

See here: http://wiki.computerharpoon.com/index.php?title=H3ANW:Rules_Of_Engagement , here http://wiki.computerharpoon.com/index.php?title=Weapons_status and here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2165481&mpage=1

Edit: messed up that last link


< Message edited by noguaranteeofsanity -- 12/3/2011 10:28:56 AM >

(in reply to mikmyk)
Post #: 10
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 3:37:04 PM   
mikmyk


Posts: 5431
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

Mykmyk, that was my understanding, although appears I may be wrong.   I am only picking up ANW 3.10 again with the release of the beta patch after taking a break of a few years, but remembered the issue was discussed during the 3.10 beta stage and found this post http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1470793, so thought i would try to answer Dale's question given the lack of responses from others.

After chceking the AGSI wiki and old ANW forum more exstensively, it appears only incoming missiles that are engaged under weapons tight and was changed during the beta, although the ROE settings are only available to the player and apply to plotted and unassigned units, so it is only AI units with a plotted mission that appear to ignore the setting, which may be what the video is referring too.

See here: http://wiki.computerharpoon.com/index.php?title=H3ANW:Rules_Of_Engagement , here http://wiki.computerharpoon.com/index.php?title=Weapons_status and here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2165481&mpage=1

Edit: messed up that last link



Okay thanks that's pretty much how I remember it when involved in development. I may have actually written part of those

Bottom line though is this really isn't a showstopper no matter what anybody thinks it is. Its a waste a time to dwell on it.

(in reply to noguaranteeofsanity)
Post #: 11
RE: weapons tight - 12/3/2011 3:51:20 PM   
Dale H


Posts: 452
Joined: 6/9/2004
Status: offline
Got it. Very helpful. This put it to rest for me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

In the military 'weapons tight' is not the same as 'weapons hold'.

'Weapons tight' means to only engage contacts that have been positively identified as hostile, while 'weapons hold' means do not fire.  

For example, say radar picked up an unidentified air contact, under 'weapons tight', no unit would fire until it was positively identified as hostile, which might mean waiting until it was in visual range, if the contact was not emitting and did not fire.  

However if the human player saw that the contact was moving at mach 1.1, it obviously is not a civillan aircraft and the human player could choose to engage it, without waiting for the contact to be identified as a hostile aircraft.

Basically the 'weapons tight' functionality gives the player the choice of whether to engage a contact that has yet to be positively identified as hostile.

'Weapons hold' is not modelled in Harpoon, although in earler versions 'weapons tight' actually meant 'weapons hold'.  This was changed in the HUE version of Harpoon and did not please everyone, plus probably broke a few scenarios that were built around the old model, where 'weapons tight' actually meant 'weapons hold'.

As to the AI ignoring the 'weapons tight' setting, I imagine because there is no human player to override the 'weapons tight' order for the AI, it would be redundant and excessively restrict the AI in comparison to a human player, who would be able to approach AI units, avoid being identifed and engaged by the AI, until their units either launched their weapons, or were otherwise identifed as hostile by AI.


(in reply to noguaranteeofsanity)
Post #: 12
RE: weapons tight - 12/16/2011 7:59:21 AM   
Vincenzo Beretta


Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline
In direct response to Dale H,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dale H

It was mentioned that Weapons Tight can be checked (or should be checked) but it really doesn't work. Is this true?

a video explaining "Weapons Tight and how it works" has been added the YouTube Harpoon for Dummies channel to help Harpoon players navigate the complexities of the game and to deliver the best possible playing experience.

Read all about it
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2985433

(in reply to Dale H)
Post #: 13
RE: weapons tight - 12/16/2011 2:17:00 PM   
Dale H


Posts: 452
Joined: 6/9/2004
Status: offline
Thanks very much. Very helpful.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

In direct response to Dale H,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dale H

It was mentioned that Weapons Tight can be checked (or should be checked) but it really doesn't work. Is this true?

a video explaining "Weapons Tight and how it works" has been added the YouTube Harpoon for Dummies channel to help Harpoon players navigate the complexities of the game and to deliver the best possible playing experience.

Read all about it
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2985433


(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 14
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