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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

 
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/24/2011 10:00:47 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jrcar

I think shipping to Takao is a mistake, it will become a bottleneck (even at Level 7), get it all the way back to the home islands and save 4 days of unloading/reloading at Takao.

Even in the home islands I drop off at multiple ports so that only a max of 2 convoy are in a single port at a time.


Cheers
Rob


Rob, I've been reading the last few entries of your AAR and just came to the same conclusion. That's definitely the way to go. Thanks.


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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/24/2011 10:01:46 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Redsunrizing

Hello Mike, I can't see the naval 11th air fleet in your deployments, and I was wondering where you were going to use this HQ?


I haven't decided where to use that HQ yet. To be honest, I don't know the command range. That'll be the deciding factor.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/24/2011 10:20:02 PM   
Cribtop


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11th Air HQ has 5 hex range and is very useful.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/24/2011 10:56:38 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I try to build up bases to prevent fuel spoilage. There are some bases where you can't get the magic 10 port + airfield to prevent spoilage.

Wonderful idea about AV & AG to eliminate the need for a BF. Never thought of that!



Not sure when it happened but size 9 is the magic number now -- not 10.. Makes it a lot easier on us Jap Fan Boys.

Nice thing with AVs is you can convert merchies to some to increase your float support if needed.

Xargun


< Message edited by Xargun -- 11/24/2011 11:02:39 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 8:00:44 AM   
hkbhsi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Also a great idea about increasing refineries in Java. That would take only 25 refineries. That's worth it. I think I'll do that. That would eliminate the excess oil and increase supply to 15,750 and fuel to 54,150 a month.



Hi Mike, I can't wait to read you AAR when the war starts.

I'm not sure that increasing refineries in Java is a good idea. Supply wise they will repay themselves in almost 3 years (1000 days) and they will be probably bombed to dust before that date. For that reason I never repair refineries outside of Japan.

Since you will probably have some of the existing refineries damaged during the capture, regarding the oil surplus you need only to arrange a small convoy to say Singapore (where you will also have the excessive Sumatran oil) for shipment to Japan.

< Message edited by hkbhsi -- 11/25/2011 8:06:58 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 1:30:26 PM   
Mike Solli


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hkbhsi (I'm not even going to try to pronounce that ), you're right. It all depends. But if the refineries are intact, then 25 additional refineries are required to refine the excess oil. I really don't care about the supply cost. It would be all about the 7500 excess oil a month that wouldn't have to be shipped to Japan. I know it's not really a lot, but that's a long distance for the oil to travel to be refined. That extra fuel a month would be used for fleet refueling in the SRA where the main body of the fleet will be stationed when not being used.

The fuel would most likely be moved off Java, but since it's in the form of fuel and not oil, there would be more options. As oil, only TKs and AOs can move it. As fuel, xAKs can also move it. I see TKs and AOs being at a premium throughout the war. Having to divert a large TK a month or dedicate a couple of 1250 TKs forever (just to get the oil to Singapore) may be an issue. We'll see what transpires.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 1:38:30 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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Aaaah a Mike Solli AAR. WhenI bought AE I started Japan and the first sound I made after pondering a few minutes was "Ufff" followed by an "Uhm".
Then I found your AAR and had at least some guidance where to start. Thanks alot for that and I am subscribed too :)

Btw I would convert some of the 14 Kn AKs into AK-Ts. They have reasonable load in troops and cargo and okish speed for movement and Invasion. The Tohos are very sweet for that and you can use some 12Kn ships instead for resource hauling for example.
Remember you will have alot of troops to move after the intitial invasions. I also share your view on certain AK-L classes, I never understood why some players think they are throw away ships.

< Message edited by Gräfin Zeppelin -- 11/25/2011 1:44:48 PM >


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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 1:49:08 PM   
USS America


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Since you started over the holiday, Mike, it has taken me until the second page to get subscribed, but I am now.  

You know I have only played the Allies so far, but the economic system does fascinate me, and nobody breaks it down and explains it better than you do! 

Good luck, and have fun! 


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Post #: 38
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 1:51:22 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ok, thoughts on increasing Java's HI. Java starts with 225 oil, 260 resources, 200 refineries, 60 HI and 180 LI. There's a deficit of 1300 resources a day. I didn't expect that, but the 180 LI does a number on the resources. Fortunately, there are a lot of resource producing bases nearby. I will ship resources from the following:

Base (resource centers)

Bandjermasin (60)
Tobali (20)
Billiton (20)
Christmas Is IO (10)
Makassar (20)
Kolaka (40)
Palembang (20)
Singkep (20)
Pontianak (20)

This will allow me to increase the HI in Java by 50 to 110 leaving the following excess for use elsewhere:

Monthly excess:

Supply - 15,000
Fuel - 47,400
Oil - 7500
Resources - 0

The supply will be used in Java as well as the surrounding small bases. Not sure about the fuel, but the oil will make the long trek to Japan.


Mike, I don't know if it will make a difference to your plans or desires on Java, but with the beta patches you can now turn off the light industry. Depending on what you want to do on Java, it could save a lot of resources for use in the HI, as long as you were ok on supplies.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 2:25:51 PM   
Mike Solli


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I can turn off LI? I thought the patch stopped one from turning off LI! Man, it's been a long time.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 2:55:20 PM   
PaxMondo


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Correct. No longer can turn off LI. LI is to model the cottage/small business type of economy.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:03:47 PM   
Mike Solli


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Thanks for the bad news Pax.

Question: I think I read somewhere that if you upgrade an air unit, it now costs PPs. Is that true? If so, does anyone know how the cost is calculated?

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:09:19 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I can turn off LI? I thought the patch stopped one from turning off LI! Man, it's been a long time.


Oops....sorry 'bout that!

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:12:11 PM   
Mike Solli


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No big deal, Mike. I just chalk it up to Allied misinformation.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:23:27 PM   
hkbhsi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Question: I think I read somewhere that if you upgrade an air unit, it now costs PPs. Is that true? If so, does anyone know how the cost is calculated?


It costs PPs if you change the plane to a different type than the scheduled upgrade path, therefore it affects only games with PDU ON.

For example if a KI51 Sonia sentai is scheduled to upgrade to the KI51B model and you upgrade it to a KI49 Helen, therefore going from 1E to 2E, you will have to pay 75 PPs.
If you upgrade the same group to a different 1E bomber (Ann for example) you will not pay anything.

Alex.

< Message edited by hkbhsi -- 11/25/2011 3:24:22 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:24:55 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks for the bad news Pax.

Question: I think I read somewhere that if you upgrade an air unit, it now costs PPs. Is that true? If so, does anyone know how the cost is calculated?


I noticed earlier today that the current PP total is shown when you change the model a squadron upgrades to; maybe that is what costs PP? That would make more sense, given that most squadrons upgrade anyway sooner or later.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:28:48 PM   
Mike Solli


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The discussions above have caused me to change my resource/oil/fuel movement plans. I'm going to bypass Formosa altogether. It saves time unloading/loading and I no longer have to upgrade Takao to a level 7 port. Now I will have all my convoys out of Singapore move directly to Nagasaki. I will upgrade Nagasaki's port to level 9, to match Singapore. That does cause a new problem though. The escorts have a much longer trek. I'll have to figure out which escorts I will use for these convoys. I don't expect to use any TK/xAK slower than 15 kts. Time to start figuring what the monthly tonnage of all the stuff will be flowing into Singapore each month.....

Does anyone have the tonnage for the 5 TK classes handy?

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:30:10 PM   
hkbhsi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

hkbhsi (I'm not even going to try to pronounce that ), you're right. It all depends. But if the refineries are intact, then 25 additional refineries are required to refine the excess oil. I really don't care about the supply cost. It would be all about the 7500 excess oil a month that wouldn't have to be shipped to Japan. I know it's not really a lot, but that's a long distance for the oil to travel to be refined. That extra fuel a month would be used for fleet refueling in the SRA where the main body of the fleet will be stationed when not being used.

The fuel would most likely be moved off Java, but since it's in the form of fuel and not oil, there would be more options. As oil, only TKs and AOs can move it. As fuel, xAKs can also move it. I see TKs and AOs being at a premium throughout the war. Having to divert a large TK a month or dedicate a couple of 1250 TKs forever (just to get the oil to Singapore) may be an issue. We'll see what transpires.



Mike,
be aware that cargo convoys that have ships with liquid capacity, when ordered to transport resources will also load oil if present at that port. Therefore it can be useful to use those xAK to haul resources back to Japan from a port where oil is also stockpiled (Singapore mostly).

Alex.

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Post #: 48
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:30:54 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks for the bad news Pax.

Question: I think I read somewhere that if you upgrade an air unit, it now costs PPs. Is that true? If so, does anyone know how the cost is calculated?


Yeah, that's what I read. Do you have any examples? It's going to take a bite out of the PPs, which will slow down the release of LCUs out of Manchuoko. Just curious how much it will impact things.

I noticed earlier today that the current PP total is shown when you change the model a squadron upgrades to; maybe that is what costs PP? That would make more sense, given that most squadrons upgrade anyway sooner or later.



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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:32:19 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

No big deal, Mike. I just chalk it up to Allied misinformation.


Was I that transparent?

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:34:04 PM   
hkbhsi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The discussions above have caused me to change my resource/oil/fuel movement plans. I'm going to bypass Formosa altogether. It saves time unloading/loading and I no longer have to upgrade Takao to a level 7 port. Now I will have all my convoys out of Singapore move directly to Nagasaki. I will upgrade Nagasaki's port to level 9, to match Singapore. That does cause a new problem though. The escorts have a much longer trek. I'll have to figure out which escorts I will use for these convoys. I don't expect to use any TK/xAK slower than 15 kts. Time to start figuring what the monthly tonnage of all the stuff will be flowing into Singapore each month.....

Does anyone have the tonnage for the 5 TK classes handy?



Any ship with endurance of at least 6000 will be able to make the trip from Singapore to Nagasaki without refueling in Japan. At the beginning you should have a few ES with 8000 endurance and a lot of PBs with endurance of 6000 and speed of 14 knots.

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Post #: 51
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:35:22 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

hkbhsi (I'm not even going to try to pronounce that ), you're right. It all depends. But if the refineries are intact, then 25 additional refineries are required to refine the excess oil. I really don't care about the supply cost. It would be all about the 7500 excess oil a month that wouldn't have to be shipped to Japan. I know it's not really a lot, but that's a long distance for the oil to travel to be refined. That extra fuel a month would be used for fleet refueling in the SRA where the main body of the fleet will be stationed when not being used.

The fuel would most likely be moved off Java, but since it's in the form of fuel and not oil, there would be more options. As oil, only TKs and AOs can move it. As fuel, xAKs can also move it. I see TKs and AOs being at a premium throughout the war. Having to divert a large TK a month or dedicate a couple of 1250 TKs forever (just to get the oil to Singapore) may be an issue. We'll see what transpires.



Mike,
be aware that cargo convoys that have ships with liquid capacity, when ordered to transport resources will also load oil if present at that port. Therefore it can be useful to use those xAK to haul resources back to Japan from a port where oil is also stockpiled (Singapore mostly).

Alex.


Alex (much easier to pronounce than hkbhsi!),

Yes, I realize that. The Yusen-N and Kyushu classes are the ones that have liquid capacity and I love them for that (and their speed). Note that they both can convert to AK, but I will not do that to these classes. I plan on using most or all of the Yusen-N (18 kt) out of Singapore to to haul resources/oil to Japan. Then I'll use TKs to haul the remaining oil and TKs to haul fuel to Japan.


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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:42:44 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The discussions above have caused me to change my resource/oil/fuel movement plans. I'm going to bypass Formosa altogether. It saves time unloading/loading and I no longer have to upgrade Takao to a level 7 port. Now I will have all my convoys out of Singapore move directly to Nagasaki. I will upgrade Nagasaki's port to level 9, to match Singapore. That does cause a new problem though. The escorts have a much longer trek. I'll have to figure out which escorts I will use for these convoys. I don't expect to use any TK/xAK slower than 15 kts. Time to start figuring what the monthly tonnage of all the stuff will be flowing into Singapore each month.....

Does anyone have the tonnage for the 5 TK classes handy?



Any ship with endurance of at least 6000 will be able to make the trip from Singapore to Nagasaki without refueling in Japan. At the beginning you should have a few ES with 8000 endurance and a lot of PBs with endurance of 6000 and speed of 14 knots.


Thanks much. That's the kind of info I don't have right now. There are the 4 Shimushus that have 8k endurance and 19 kt speed. They will be used to escort the 19 kt TKs (12,800 capacity). The Ansyu-C PBs have 6k endurance but 14 kt speed. I guess I'll have to live with that until something comes along with appropriate endurance and speed to fit the requirements (if there is anything). The only ships that can do it at the start are the Hatsuharus and Shiratsuyus, but they are going to be KB escorts.

With that information now known, I will not use the Yusen-Ns out of Singapore. Their speed will be wasted. I'll now use the Kyushus, with their 15 kt speed escorted by the Ansyu-Cs.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:48:39 PM   
hkbhsi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The discussions above have caused me to change my resource/oil/fuel movement plans. I'm going to bypass Formosa altogether. It saves time unloading/loading and I no longer have to upgrade Takao to a level 7 port. Now I will have all my convoys out of Singapore move directly to Nagasaki. I will upgrade Nagasaki's port to level 9, to match Singapore. That does cause a new problem though. The escorts have a much longer trek. I'll have to figure out which escorts I will use for these convoys. I don't expect to use any TK/xAK slower than 15 kts. Time to start figuring what the monthly tonnage of all the stuff will be flowing into Singapore each month.....

Does anyone have the tonnage for the 5 TK classes handy?



Any ship with endurance of at least 6000 will be able to make the trip from Singapore to Nagasaki without refueling in Japan. At the beginning you should have a few ES with 8000 endurance and a lot of PBs with endurance of 6000 and speed of 14 knots.


Thanks much. That's the kind of info I don't have right now. There are the 4 Shimushus that have 8k endurance and 19 kt speed. They will be used to escort the 19 kt TKs (12,800 capacity). The Ansyu-C PBs have 6k endurance but 14 kt speed. I guess I'll have to live with that until something comes along with appropriate endurance and speed to fit the requirements (if there is anything). The only ships that can do it at the start are the Hatsuharus and Shiratsuyus, but they are going to be KB escorts.

With that information now known, I will not use the Yusen-Ns out of Singapore. Their speed will be wasted. I'll now use the Kyushus, with their 15 kt speed escorted by the Ansyu-Cs.



Mike,
I'm not sure because I never use DDs to escort TKs (there are too few of them to waste in escort duty), but it is possible that even ships with 5000 endurance can make the trip from Singapore to Nagasaki.
I don't have the game in front of me now, so I cannot check.

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Post #: 54
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 3:55:04 PM   
Mike Solli


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Alex,

I have a list of all the starting escorts. After eliminating the modern DDs, there isn't much that has the speed and range (and DCs) to be used. About the best are 6x E Momis with an endurance of 3600. They probably will be pressed into service to help escort any of the 18 kt TKs that need to be used here. I suspect all or most of those TKs will be needed. I'm going to figure out what exactly Singapore will receive each month.

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Post #: 55
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 4:06:04 PM   
hkbhsi

 

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Mike,
I think that Singapore has to be the biggest hub in the game; it will receive oil and fuel overland from as far as Magwe (if you capture it intact)and there will always be a huge surplus there.

Moreover I think that due to port size limitations, all that's produced at Palembang needs to go to Singapore and not directly to the Home Islands.

Regarding the overland movement of oil and fuel, my experience is that even if you clear all roads and RRs in south China, you cannot move anything overland from Singapore, but if you drop cargo at Hong Kong it will travel to Shangai if you build it to level 9 port.

Alex.

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Post #: 56
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 4:10:08 PM   
Olorin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
With that information now known, I will not use the Yusen-Ns out of Singapore. Their speed will be wasted. I'll now use the Kyushus, with their 15 kt speed escorted by the Ansyu-Cs.


I think it's the other way around

Yusen N - 15 knots
Kyushu - 18 knots

So you could use the Yusens in Singapore and maybe hide the Kyushus in some rear area port until you get some decent escorts (or use them in invasions and lose 2/3 of them like I did).



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Post #: 57
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 4:42:11 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

Mike,
I think that Singapore has to be the biggest hub in the game; it will receive oil and fuel overland from as far as Magwe (if you capture it intact)and there will always be a huge surplus there.

Moreover I think that due to port size limitations, all that's produced at Palembang needs to go to Singapore and not directly to the Home Islands.

Regarding the overland movement of oil and fuel, my experience is that even if you clear all roads and RRs in south China, you cannot move anything overland from Singapore, but if you drop cargo at Hong Kong it will travel to Shangai if you build it to level 9 port.

Alex.


Alex,

I was unclear. Palembang will go to Singapore. Initially, I was going to send from Singapore to Formosa and then from there to Japan. I'm simply going to bypass Formosa.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 4:47:56 PM   
Mike Solli


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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
With that information now known, I will not use the Yusen-Ns out of Singapore. Their speed will be wasted. I'll now use the Kyushus, with their 15 kt speed escorted by the Ansyu-Cs.


I think it's the other way around

Yusen N - 15 knots
Kyushu - 18 knots

So you could use the Yusens in Singapore and maybe hide the Kyushus in some rear area port until you get some decent escorts (or use them in invasions and lose 2/3 of them like I did).




Yeah, I realized my mistake. Anyway, I did some initial rough calculations. Assuming everything captured intact (yeah, right).

Everything from Summatra and Burma flows to Singapore. That's roughly 108k resources, 54k oil and 400k fuel a month. It would take the following to get it all to Japan (assuming 1 round trip a month):

5x Tonan Whalers - oil, resources
17x Yusen-N - oil, resources
2x 11,160 TK - oil
6x 11,160 TK - fuel
8x 12,800 TK - fuel
39x Yusen-N - fuel
32x Kyushu - fuel

That's assuming the Yusen-N and Kyushu will carry 300 fuel in liquid storage and 50% fuel in cargo storage. Never tried it before but I think it would work. That's crazy. It's also a rough estimate.

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Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Olorin)
Post #: 59
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 11/25/2011 8:51:25 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18244
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Oh yeah, I do plan on increasing the HI in Singapore. Not sure how much yet, but whatever it is, there will definitely be excess fuel and resources to feed it.

Singapore, Canton, Hong Kong, Batavia and Soerbaja are all candidates for expansion of HI, IMO. The Java HI centers are useful IMO, as they mitigate the amount of excess fuel needed for transshipment to Singapore or the HI. Sure, they'll come under fire from the Allies reconquista, but I don't think they'll necessarily be under fire earlier than Singapore is.

Don't forget the oil and fuel on N. Sumatra. Obviously, this can be shipped directly to Singapore.

If you're against the coded 'gaminess' of using China to move resources, will you also insist on putting your TKs in danger and moving oil and fuel directly from Rangoon to Singapore? If you feel strongly about not using the miracle movement of oil from Burma to Singers, then you would have no other choice but to put your TKs out at the bleeding edge of your zone to pick up oil and fuel 'the hard way' from Magwe production.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 11/25/2011 8:56:05 PM >


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(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 60
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