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Aircraft range - 11/20/2011 4:38:51 PM   
gravyface_

 

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It seems to me that, in relation to wheeled movement, fighter and dive bomber range is woefully inaccurate. Both at level 1, a wheeled armoured car unit can move 10 hexes over plains/road. A fighter can move the same 10 hexes. And there doesn't seem to be any range modifiers that I'm aware of other than higher level upgrades (and I believe range was not available for dive bombers, at least not in level I and II).

So I guess the strategy is to keep building a ton of airbases? Seems to me I'd have to build out a grid of airbases every 10 hexes or so in each compass direction to really give good air coverage; bit excessive, no?
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RE: Aircraft range - 11/21/2011 6:04:57 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Look at it this way....

Hypotheticaly, let's say a random game scaled to 50 miles per hex. I'm not sure Vic ever really gave an indication of what he envisioned as the scale of the map for random games...and probably purposefully left it undefined. At that scale, 10 hex's would translate to an effective combat range of 500 miles for aircraft (i.e. fly 500 miles out to the target, have enough fuel to fight for a bit, fly 500 miles back to base). For WWII era Fighters and Divebombers, a 500 mile combat range isn't really inaccurate at all.

Now, when you consider a game turn might actualy represent something like a month's worth of time in a random game....for a ground traveling that same 500 miles (10 hex's) in a month breaks down to less then 20 miles travel for day. For a motorized unit, it is unreasonable to assume that they could travel at least 20 miles a day unless they were faced with significant opposition?

It's a little tricky thinking about and judging movement ranges for units in a game like ATG. For aircraft, you are not really measuring how fast they can fly.....but how much fuel they can carry. Yeah they can fly 500 miles much faster then a truck can drive.... but unless they have a place to land and refuel....they can't fly any further then that. For ground units....it's not even really a raw measure of how fast they are either.... in freindly territory, along a road...it doesn't take a truck a whole month to drive 500 miles....it could do that in 10 hours easy....but 20 miles a day is a pretty reasonable estimate of how far on average motorized units advanced into hostile or unknown territory in WWII.






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RE: Aircraft range - 11/21/2011 11:39:37 PM   
Keke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel
...but 20 miles a day is a pretty reasonable estimate of how far on average motorized units advanced into hostile or unknown territory in WWII.


On good roads and against negligible resistance that's one-third short of the historical rates.

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RE: Aircraft range - 11/22/2011 12:02:56 AM   
rich12545

 

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GrumpyMel I don't believe your example makes sense. When playing a random map the distance per hex is immaterial. What's important is the movement relation between units. If an infantry unit moves 1 hex then a wheel unit moves 3 hexas, a fighter moves maybe 8 hexes and a bomber moves maybe 10 hexes. That's simplified but you get the idea. Empire models this and AT should as well. It's screwed if a truck and aircraft move the same distance in the same turn (time frame).

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RE: Aircraft range - 11/22/2011 5:34:49 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

GrumpyMel I don't believe your example makes sense. When playing a random map the distance per hex is immaterial. What's important is the movement relation between units. If an infantry unit moves 1 hex then a wheel unit moves 3 hexas, a fighter moves maybe 8 hexes and a bomber moves maybe 10 hexes. That's simplified but you get the idea. Empire models this and AT should as well. It's screwed if a truck and aircraft move the same distance in the same turn (time frame).


Again, why? Movement isn't a measure of how fast an aircraft can fly...it's how much fuel it can carry before it needs to land to refuel.

BTW, A fighter in ATG has a MOVEMENT of 20 hex's, it has a RANGE of 10 hex's. That's how Air SFT's in ATG.... try it out for yourself. When REBASING, they can go double thier range. When flying other missions they can't.... since they need enough fuel in thier tanks to get back to base after the mission.

It's actualy a very accurate historical model for a beer n' pretzels style game (which is what the random scenerio's really are)...much more so then most other engines.

Look at the effective combat range for the Me-109 series for example..... It's really not all that far. A truck could easly outrun it's effective combat range in 10 hours worth of driving. It's just that the truck wouldn't be able to advance that sort of distance into hostile territory if it faced opposition... something would blow it up.

I think the issue you guys are having a problem with is movement scale vs time scale in the game. Yeah...if a turn represents a few hours worth of play (really tactical scale) planes are going to have a MUCH bigger range then a motorized ground unit can advance. If you are talking a month's worth of time, really not so much.....and yes having to keep rebasing your fighters forward to maintain good coverage over your front combat troops is something that's quite accurate....at least for craft like the early 109's, Spits, Hawkers, P-40's, etc.

ATG vanillia is a little generic in that it doesn't really model the difference between the long range escorts and short range interceptors.... thier all just "fighters". If you want to see those differences, then you'll have to jump into some of the scenerio's instead.

(in reply to rich12545)
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RE: Aircraft range - 11/22/2011 6:08:57 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Have to agree with GrumpyMel on this one.

I think he is dead on, with his analysis.

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RE: Aircraft range - 11/22/2011 6:59:43 PM   
british exil


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Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

GrumpyMel I don't believe your example makes sense. When playing a random map the distance per hex is immaterial. What's important is the movement relation between units. If an infantry unit moves 1 hex then a wheel unit moves 3 hexas, a fighter moves maybe 8 hexes and a bomber moves maybe 10 hexes. That's simplified but you get the idea. Empire models this and AT should as well. It's screwed if a truck and aircraft move the same distance in the same turn (time frame).


Again, why? Movement isn't a measure of how fast an aircraft can fly...it's how much fuel it can carry before it needs to land to refuel.

BTW, A fighter in ATG has a MOVEMENT of 20 hex's, it has a RANGE of 10 hex's. That's how Air SFT's in ATG.... try it out for yourself. When REBASING, they can go double thier range. When flying other missions they can't.... since they need enough fuel in thier tanks to get back to base after the mission.

It's actualy a very accurate historical model for a beer n' pretzels style game (which is what the random scenerio's really are)...much more so then most other engines.

Look at the effective combat range for the Me-109 series for example..... It's really not all that far. A truck could easly outrun it's effective combat range in 10 hours worth of driving. It's just that the truck wouldn't be able to advance that sort of distance into hostile territory if it faced opposition... something would blow it up.

I think the issue you guys are having a problem with is movement scale vs time scale in the game. Yeah...if a turn represents a few hours worth of play (really tactical scale) planes are going to have a MUCH bigger range then a motorized ground unit can advance. If you are talking a month's worth of time, really not so much.....and yes having to keep rebasing your fighters forward to maintain good coverage over your front combat troops is something that's quite accurate....at least for craft like the early 109's, Spits, Hawkers, P-40's, etc.

ATG vanillia is a little generic in that it doesn't really model the difference between the long range escorts and short range interceptors.... thier all just "fighters". If you want to see those differences, then you'll have to jump into some of the scenerio's instead.


Grumpy reading your post I just had to think of the Battle of Britain. The 109's had an advantage over the allied planes but couldn't use it due to their fuel consumption.
The 109 had a limited range (see below) and it could not spend too much time over Britain protecting bombers that carried more fuel than they did. As such, their fighting time was limited. Whereas Spitfires and Hurricanes could land and re-fuel, such an option was not open to a 109.



Facts:

Maximum speed: 385 mph (620 km/h) at 22,640 feet (6900 metres)

Ceiling: 37,895 feet (11550 metres)

Range: 373 miles (600 km)

So the AT/ATG might have it correct when it comes to the aircraft range. I just wish we had some kind of radius marker, telling us how far a fighter/bomber can fly to and return back.

Mat

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RE: Aircraft range - 11/22/2011 7:33:19 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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Mat - I use the recon button for this purpose.


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RE: Aircraft range - 11/22/2011 7:36:39 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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I think the naval units are a bit abstracted from this air/ground type reasoning.


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Post #: 9
RE: Aircraft range - 11/22/2011 8:02:51 PM   
british exil


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From: Lower Saxony Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Mat - I use the recon button for this purpose.



Recon, yeah! Use it often but never with fighter or bomber range in mind. Thanks for the tip. Simple but effective.

Mat


_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 10
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