Matrix Games Forums

Come and see us during the Spieltagen in Essen!New Screenshots for Pike & ShotDeal of the Week Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTYCommand: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTY is now available!Frontline : The Longest Day Announced and in Beta!Command gets Wargame of the Year EditionDeal of the Week: Pandora SeriesPandora: Eclipse of Nashira is now availableDistant Worlds Gets another updateHell is Approaching
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Troop Quality Decline

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> Troop Quality Decline Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Troop Quality Decline - 11/19/2011 4:23:31 PM   
jscott991


Posts: 528
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline
I've noticed that corps can randomly lose quality and it starts to really pick up steam in 1917.

What causes this?

I've usually won before late 1917, but my current game is dragging out and all my German B corps just flipped to C corps.
Post #: 1
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/19/2011 9:39:21 PM   
Urpå


Posts: 28
Joined: 3/2/2010
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
Couple lines from the manual:

quote:

14.0 National Morale and Exhaustion
Each nation has an overall morale. This number represents the commitment of the country’s population,
the ability to “see it through.” Each nation also contains an Exhaustion rating which starts at zero. Whenever any nation takes a casualty, there is a 12% chance of that casualty causing an Exhaustion increase; each nation gets exhausted at a different value.

There are three levels of Exhaustion. When reaching a level, the nation loses about 20% of its starting
morale. Also, when a nation reaches level one Exhaustion, all of its HQs lose one offensive point and all of its corps lose one level of quality. This is repeated at level two and three. Additionally, at level three all HQs are forced to retreat.


The 'exhaustion' level bar can be found in the national status screen during strategic phase.


< Message edited by Urpå -- 11/19/2011 9:41:38 PM >

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 2
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/20/2011 12:43:17 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3243
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
Another reason for troop quality decline of individual corps is that they have taken a LOT of replacements - IIRC they drop 1 level if they have taken twice as many replacements as their nominal strength.

I can' find it in the rules or the Read me files tho....

(in reply to Urpå)
Post #: 3
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/20/2011 5:20:46 AM   
jscott991


Posts: 528
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline
That's an insanely harsh penalty for exhaustion. Although this is the first time I've ever had it happen to Germany and I've never seen Austria, OE, or Bulgaria get even close.

Still, that's ridiculous.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 11/20/2011 5:21:33 AM >

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 4
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/20/2011 9:41:49 PM   
lordhoff


Posts: 250
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
Actually, no it isn't. French units refused to go on the offensive and after the failure of the 1917 offensives, German armies seemed incapable of offense and entire units would surrender to a single soldier. It reflects history quite well.

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 5
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/21/2011 4:18:29 AM   
jscott991


Posts: 528
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline
No, I don't think its very accurate at all. It's a game convention. When I have 999,999 casualties my armies fight ok, but on that 1,000,000 casualty, regardless of how the war is going, everything, everywhere completely downgrades. That's hardly very realistic.

Furthermore, there are different levels of exhaustion, so for the first one to do that much damage to the entire army is overly harsh.

I really, really want to like this game, but it's absurd TE bias (only 26 Austrian corps!? There over 3 million men in the Austrian army at the start of the war; Serbian troops have the same combat values as German; using the editor really opened my eyes on how this game is structured) and weird mechanics make it difficult to enjoy.

(in reply to lordhoff)
Post #: 6
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/21/2011 9:45:34 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3243
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
All games have "conventions" of some sort or other.  The mechanism works very well.  In fact th British armies were pretty much exhausted in 1918 too - apart from the ANZAC and Canadian troops - even though hte war was going well.

The number of corps in each army seems quite accurate - a lot of troops were not in the front line corps in all armies.  AFAIK the Austrians only had 18 Corps in 1914.  In 1918 I count 18 Corps on the Russian/Romanian front (http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/916AKAA.pdf) and 8 on the Italian front in 1917 - http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/917AKAA.pdf

3 million men in the Austrian armies for 26 Corps seems quite reasonable compared to 12 million available to the Russian armies for 76 Corps.

Actually AH mobilised about 7.8 million men for it's 26 Corps, France 8.4 million for 37, but poor old Italy 5.6 million for only 17 really, really, REALLY poor quality ones! The UK - 8.9 million for a paltry 23 corps - fewer than AH!!

Data is from http://www.ww1-world-war-one.info/world-war-one-information-Nation-Strength.htm

Perhaps rather than ranting on about it, if you have better information, you might like to provide that for a revised order of battle??

And while Serbian corps have the same quality value as Germans, they are obviously only 2/3rds the strength points, so are not equal at all!

Personally I think you probably need to play more in order to appreciate the game.  But if you are put off by i and want to change it then you should present some info - not just a complaint.


(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 7
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/21/2011 2:05:18 PM   
jscott991


Posts: 528
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline
The game is quite old and won't change much (if at all), so I haven't seen the need to get into fact wars with people.

Just in my few posts there has been a lot of misleading information provided to rebut my points, and there is a lot of taking my information and using it out of context.

Total mobilization numbers are not that useful when trying to figure out how many units each side should have throughout the war. You have to know peak mobilization size. Austria's army was at its biggest at the beginning of the war, when it had approximately 3.3 million men under arms. The number of corps is somewhat meaningless, because every nation defined a corps differently. Even division size varied widely. GoA can't simply say "Austria had 18 corps in real life, so it has 18 corps in GoA." That leads to the absurd situation we have now, where Germany will end up with an army about 3x as large Austria's. Germany never fielded an army of nearly 10 million men.

Giving Austria only 26 corps hardwires the disastrous Galician losses at the start of the war into the game. The nearly 1,000,000 casualties suffered because of Conrad's ridiculous offensive in 1914 is what caused Austria's army to be stretched so thin and require German backing so often. It never recovered its peak strength. In GoA, it never reaches its peak strength, at least in terms of relative size vis a vis all the other powers.

Meanwhile, Russia's defeats at Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes are not hardwired into the game. So while an Austria player who doesn't repeat Conrad's mistakes (in fact, in most of my games, I seldom suffer many casualties as Austria at all) still will have a very small, thinly stretched force, the Russian blob will always exist, unless the player disastrously throws corps away (which the AI does, of course, but no player would do).

Edit: I didn't see this before. You can't compare Russia's total mobilized to Austria's peak size. Russia's peak army size is nowhere near 12 million, it is just under 6 million according to most sources. Austria's total mobilized size is nearly 8 million. Germany's peak size, by the way, is about 4.5 million and their total mobilization is about 11 million. There is no way that Germany should ever have 3x as many men serving in their army at any one point than Austria, unless Austria has just thrown corps away.

The quality downgrade because of exhaustion is a poor mechanic. If you want to reduce the quality of corps, it should be tied to the number of replacements that an individual corps has received. If the German Guards corps are continually reduced to 1 strength and then jumped back up to 24, they should lose their A quality. A corps should not lose it's A quality because some C corps in the Balkans suffers the 1,000,000th casualty and all forces are downgraded.

The idea that exhaustion models the French mutinies in 1917 is somewhat silly, since I can send these troops to their deaths just as easily as before, they are just somehow lower quality when I do.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say a Serbian corps has less strength than a German corps so it doesn't matter if their A forces have the same rating as a German corps. The idea that man-for-man, a Serbian regular unit was the equivalent of a German guard corps is patently absurd. The Serbian army was poorly equipped, exhausted from the Balkan wars, and relied on recruits from only semi-assimilated areas of the country. I'm not saying that Serbian troops should be Romanian in quality, but they shouldn't be anywhere near German quality levels. Now this hardly ever matters because the AI Serbian player is incompetent in the extreme. Russian A corps being the same as German A corps is a lot more threatening, and also just as inaccurate. The firepower of Russian corps was atrocious because of the country's inferior artillery (and lack of it). Russian troops could be better equipped than Austria's, but they didn't come close to Germany.

I wrote a lot about this when I first bought the game, but GoA is heavily stacked in the TE's favor, in ways that don't make any sense. The unrealistic slow movement of troops means that the Schlieffen Plan as written is impossible to accomplish (it is physically impossible in the game to move a German corps to Paris in 6 weeks) and this is a strange pro-TE bias. The difficulty with the Schlieffen plan wasn't that the German corps couldn't march to Paris in time to finish the envelopment, it was that not enough Germans could be moved there to win the decisive battle (hence the three mystery corps that appear near Paris in the plan, but don't seem to have actually moved there). The small Austrian army, the hardwired Italian, USA, and Romanian entrance into the war (I've had Italy enter the war on the Entente's side after the fall of Paris and I've had Romania enter the war after a French and Italian surrender; neither of those vulture countries would have come in if they thought the TE was actually losing the war; I've had the USA enter the war after a French surrender, and then have nothing to do), the exhaustion rules, the enormous Russian OOB, the strength of Liege, etc., etc. are all questionable pro-TE decisions.

When I raised all these problems before, I was told "the TE won the war, so the game should be biased in favor of them." My response was that the game should be accurately balanced and historical accuracy will still favor the TE. There is no reason to build in arbitrary pro-TE elements.

And I've finished 7 games over the last 3 weeks so I don't think playing more is going to help me appreciate this game's problems on any higher level. In fact, the more I play, the less I like the game.

Edit: I don't mean to seem like just a whiner, especially with a game that has already gone through its patch cycle (maybe life cycle). If the editor let me add Austrian corps, I wouldn't even bring this up. But the TE bias in this game is pretty self-evident and that's disappointing, since WWI is a more "open" conflict than a lot of the larger wars that are simulated.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 11/21/2011 10:49:14 PM >

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 8
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/22/2011 4:14:31 AM   
lordhoff


Posts: 250
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
Not sure how he came up with 26 AH Corps. In Aug 1914, AH had a total of 16 corps. Perhaps the rest were landwher. This is a broad-brush game made for over all affects as opposed to exact detail. One gets a good feel of WW I warfare but one does come out feeling hungry for more. A lot of game conventions are used to get this feel. Certainly not for everyone. I enjoyed it while I played it but I haven' actually done so in quite a while.

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 9
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/22/2011 4:42:05 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3243
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
I think the restrictions on Corps numbers are probably needless....but they do affect everyone the same - often at the end of the game the winning side will have massive surpluses of equipment and available manpower - the US is particularly prone, and I've had it occur with Austria too when I've been desperately trying to do the fighting with Austrian troops to save scarce German manpower.  Occasionally it happens with the losing side too

I don't believe it affects he game much - if one side is already winning then speeding things up doesn't really matter much, and if it happens when a side is losing then I can see it as representing an unwillingness to commit more to an already lost cause.

I think the movement rates are a complete non-issue - Germany can get to adjacent to Epernay & Arras on the 3rd impulse of T1. Th 1st army was probably 1 hex further on in hex 11,11 next to Paris when defeated but the effect is just fine IMO - if the Germans push hard enough they can certainly take the city in 1914, and the TE will probably fight a desperate battle to stop it happening.


< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 11/22/2011 4:49:07 AM >

(in reply to lordhoff)
Post #: 10
RE: Troop Quality Decline - 11/22/2011 2:26:11 PM   
jscott991


Posts: 528
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline
The hard cap on number of corps dramatically helps the TE.  Austria-Hungary fielded a lot of troops.  They fought an incompetent war and frequently hurt their allies more than they helped, but that incompetence shouldn't be hardwired into the game.

Austria should have at least half as many corps as Germany.  If the CP player doesn't throw away a third of the Austrian army in Galicia in 1914, it shouldn't require extensive German aid just to adequately cover Galicia and Italy.

I can't believe the editor doesn't let you add units.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 11
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> Troop Quality Decline Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.082