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Bombing - 11/12/2011 7:33:01 PM   
US87891

 

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Have a proposal for the Babes people. Artillery is on a proportional basis so why not aerial bombs? I see the artillery proportionality going with a standard. Why not have bombs go against the same standard? A 500 lb bomb only has 150lbs of explosive, and the its kill mechanism is the same as a large caliber mortar round. Can there be something done to unify this?

Matt
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RE: Bombing - 11/13/2011 11:19:50 AM   
herwin

 

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I doubt it. Bombs would correspond to the high end of artillery scale, and I doubt the linear scaling would hold that far.

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RE: Bombing - 11/13/2011 5:02:33 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891
Have a proposal for the Babes people. Artillery is on a proportional basis so why not aerial bombs? I see the artillery proportionality going with a standard. Why not have bombs go against the same standard? A 500 lb bomb only has 150lbs of explosive, and the its kill mechanism is the same as a large caliber mortar round. Can there be something done to unify this?

Matt

Sure. We'll have to check the algorithm and see what it's looking for in the Kaboom part, but yeah, that's a good idea. I do like the hint of correspondance with mortar bombs. Never thought of it in quite that way before but now you mention it, it makes perfect sense.

Doing some quick calcs, I think it's possible to unify the bomb and arty data with the same technique. We'll look into it.

Regards. J

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RE: Bombing - 11/13/2011 5:23:58 PM   
PaxMondo


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Way Cool.

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RE: Bombing - 11/13/2011 10:36:16 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Way Cool.


Good luck. It should work, but there are differences in what they do at the ground.

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RE: Bombing - 11/13/2011 11:14:50 PM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

A 500 lb bomb only has 150lbs of explosive, and the its kill mechanism is the same as a large caliber mortar round.



How much explosive depends on the type of bomb. 150 lbs is not far off for a semi-armor piercing bomb (the US 500 lb SAP AN-M58 had 160 lbs of TNT). A 500 lb general purpose (GP) bomb would have about 250 - 275 lbs of explosive, and a 500 lb AP bomb would probably have about 70 lbs of explosive. The level and type of damage would also depend on the type of fuze. A delay fuze would dig a crater, which would be handy if you need to penetrate a bunker or damage a runway, but the crater contains the blast damage. AP or SAP would normally have a long delay fuze, because penetration is what they do. At least in US practice, the fuze in a GP bomb would depend on the mission.

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RE: Bombing - 11/14/2011 6:36:47 PM   
JWE

 

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Yep, I got about the same info from a long time AO Tech at Pendleton. Seems the Brit '39-'42 GP series came in at around 29-31% fill/weight. Their '42-'45 MC series was about 47-49%. The early USN Mk-12 and M43 were both about 49% and all of the Joint AN types were 51-53%. Not to worry, there's OrdPubs for every bomb in the game. Won't do anything without consulting primary source material.

Got hold of a copy of Christie's papers and the first Munitions Effectiveness Manual from '47. This puppy has everything; analysis math, the raw data, graphs charts, younameit. Lot different from the ones I used in the 60s and 70s and way, way different from the alphabet soup crap they use today. Overlays, kill mechanism, and kill level coutours for bombs are remarkably similar to big bore mortars. Think @Matt is on to something. Only real notable difference is in the psi contours, but those are compensated by secondary fragmentation. This is way cool stuff.

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RE: Bombing - 11/14/2011 8:19:06 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Yep, I got about the same info from a long time AO Tech at Pendleton. Seems the Brit '39-'42 GP series came in at around 29-31% fill/weight. Their '42-'45 MC series was about 47-49%. The early USN Mk-12 and M43 were both about 49% and all of the Joint AN types were 51-53%. Not to worry, there's OrdPubs for every bomb in the game. Won't do anything without consulting primary source material.

Got hold of a copy of Christie's papers and the first Munitions Effectiveness Manual from '47. This puppy has everything; analysis math, the raw data, graphs charts, younameit. Lot different from the ones I used in the 60s and 70s and way, way different from the alphabet soup crap they use today. Overlays, kill mechanism, and kill level coutours for bombs are remarkably similar to big bore mortars. Think @Matt is on to something. Only real notable difference is in the psi contours, but those are compensated by secondary fragmentation. This is way cool stuff.


Don't let it go for a walk. I have a list of MIAs currently posted on my office door, including Morse and Kimball. Now why any academic would want to snag that, I don't know...

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"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

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RE: Bombing - 11/15/2011 4:27:08 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1
How much explosive depends on the type of bomb. 150 lbs is not far off for a semi-armor piercing bomb (the US 500 lb SAP AN-M58 had 160 lbs of TNT). A 500 lb general purpose (GP) bomb would have about 250 - 275 lbs of explosive, and a 500 lb AP bomb would probably have about 70 lbs of explosive. The level and type of damage would also depend on the type of fuze. A delay fuze would dig a crater, which would be handy if you need to penetrate a bunker or damage a runway, but the crater contains the blast damage. AP or SAP would normally have a long delay fuze, because penetration is what they do. At least in US practice, the fuze in a GP bomb would depend on the mission.

If wishes were knishes I'd never go hungry but there ain't no hooks for fusing or damage modalities. So we're stuck with the single choice between GP and AP/SAP depending on AltDevice/AltUse attributes. There's no way to add cratering, bunker busting, etc.. so penetration, fuse delays, and such, are a non starter in game terms, except for Pen values in Naval Attacks.

There's two measures of bomb Kaboom, Effect and Anti-Soft. They aren't interchangeable, and are processed differently depending on the combat algorithm. There's Ground Attack, Port, Airfield and City Attack. Some use one parameter, some use the other, some use both. So all we can do is tighten it up a bit and make it smoother.



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RE: Bombing - 11/15/2011 5:16:22 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
There's two measures of bomb Kaboom, Effect and Anti-Soft. They aren't interchangeable, and are processed differently depending on the combat algorithm. There's Ground Attack, Port, Airfield and City Attack. Some use one parameter, some use the other, some use both. So all we can do is tighten it up a bit and make it smoother.



Looking forward to your final result on this. Hopefully, as with the AA guns and the multiple torp tubes, it will incrementally refine the game. Thanks for the work!!!

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RE: Bombing - 11/15/2011 6:22:43 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

Have a proposal for the Babes people. Artillery is on a proportional basis so why not aerial bombs? I see the artillery proportionality going with a standard. Why not have bombs go against the same standard? A 500 lb bomb only has 150lbs of explosive, and the its kill mechanism is the same as a large caliber mortar round. Can there be something done to unify this?

Matt


have a crude rendition of this in my mod for both effect and acc. works ok. John of course can produce a more mathamatically awesome rendition of it. He smart......He makes things Go. I can't add.

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RE: Bombing - 11/16/2011 11:08:04 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1
How much explosive depends on the type of bomb. 150 lbs is not far off for a semi-armor piercing bomb (the US 500 lb SAP AN-M58 had 160 lbs of TNT). A 500 lb general purpose (GP) bomb would have about 250 - 275 lbs of explosive, and a 500 lb AP bomb would probably have about 70 lbs of explosive. The level and type of damage would also depend on the type of fuze. A delay fuze would dig a crater, which would be handy if you need to penetrate a bunker or damage a runway, but the crater contains the blast damage. AP or SAP would normally have a long delay fuze, because penetration is what they do. At least in US practice, the fuze in a GP bomb would depend on the mission.

If wishes were knishes I'd never go hungry but there ain't no hooks for fusing or damage modalities. So we're stuck with the single choice between GP and AP/SAP depending on AltDevice/AltUse attributes. There's no way to add cratering, bunker busting, etc.. so penetration, fuse delays, and such, are a non starter in game terms, except for Pen values in Naval Attacks.

There's two measures of bomb Kaboom, Effect and Anti-Soft. They aren't interchangeable, and are processed differently depending on the combat algorithm. There's Ground Attack, Port, Airfield and City Attack. Some use one parameter, some use the other, some use both. So all we can do is tighten it up a bit and make it smoother.




You mean by effect, blast? That should be basically a function of the cube root of the explosive weight--the shove on the target of interest. Anti-soft would be energy deposition by case fragments. That would be more the square root of the explosive weight--lethal area. It's the difference between offensive and defensive grenades.

< Message edited by herwin -- 11/16/2011 11:09:47 AM >


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Post #: 12
RE: Bombing - 11/16/2011 7:21:18 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
have a crude rendition of this in my mod for both effect and acc. works ok. John of course can produce a more mathamatically awesome rendition of it. He smart......He makes things Go. I can't add.

Woof !! the math works !! we are smart now !! we will be strong !! we will have better weapons !!


Plotted the arty parameters and did a curve fit. Plotted the new bomb parameters and I will be dipped in stuff if the arty curve didn't fit perfectly. Woof !! Must have done something right with the arty algorithm. All I need to do now is figure out how much to displace the curve for bomb things. Then, it's a simple "go to X and get Y".

[ed] hey Nik, give me a shout with your rendition data. I'll shoot you the complete algorithm and the results, but it would be good to check it against what you might already have. Ciao.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JWE -- 11/16/2011 7:25:59 PM >


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RE: Bombing - 11/16/2011 9:42:10 PM   
oldman45


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So we can have para frags back

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RE: Bombing - 11/17/2011 7:01:46 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
[ed] hey Nik, give me a shout with your rendition data. I'll shoot you the complete algorithm and the results, but it would be good to check it against what you might already have. Ciao.


PM sent

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Post #: 15
RE: Bombing - 11/21/2011 6:05:52 PM   
JWE

 

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Okey dokey then, bombing model is finished. Tests out very well.

Part of it is very similar to Nik's approach (great minds, yeah? ) so City, AF, Port bombing will give proportionally smoother results.

The other part of it nestles perfectly into the Arty algorithm, and gives very proportional results vis a vis a hard humping battery, in game terms. So, no more of this 'bomb a Chinese Corps into oblivion" crap. Lots of other 'crap' has been addressed and redacted by judicious choice of variable scope.

Think this might just float ya'lls boat. It definitely works for us. Will be up on the website tomorrow, for both BabesLite and DaBigBabes.

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RE: Bombing - 11/21/2011 6:40:35 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Okey dokey then, bombing model is finished. Tests out very well.

Part of it is very similar to Nik's approach (great minds, yeah? ) so City, AF, Port bombing will give proportionally smoother results.

The other part of it nestles perfectly into the Arty algorithm, and gives very proportional results vis a vis a hard humping battery, in game terms. So, no more of this 'bomb a Chinese Corps into oblivion" crap. Lots of other 'crap' has been addressed and redacted by judicious choice of variable scope.

Think this might just float ya'lls boat. It definitely works for us. Will be up on the website tomorrow, for both BabesLite and DaBigBabes.



_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to JWE)
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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 9:22:30 AM   
Bliztk


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There is any posibility of rolling it in a already running Dababes game?

Only the device list is altered....

< Message edited by Bliztk -- 11/23/2011 9:23:09 AM >


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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 3:51:21 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk
There is any posibility of rolling it in a already running Dababes game?

Only the device list is altered....

Yes, sir. It can update ongoing games. In PBEM, Japan has to run its turn first with the new data, then the Allies. And both have to have the same file and answer yes to the start query. But that's it.

Both BabesLite and DaBigBabes have been updated with this and nothing else since the map thing back in October; other data is good since August; Lite bomb update on Nov.22, DBB bomb update on Nov.23, so if you download on or after those dates you should be good to boogie.

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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 4:24:36 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk
There is any posibility of rolling it in a already running Dababes game?

Only the device list is altered....

Yes, sir. It can update ongoing games. In PBEM, Japan has to run its turn first with the new data, then the Allies. And both have to have the same file and answer yes to the start query. But that's it.

Both BabesLite and DaBigBabes have been updated with this and nothing else since the map thing back in October; other data is good since August; Lite bomb update on Nov.22, DBB bomb update on Nov.23, so if you download on or after those dates you should be good to boogie.


Thanks for heads up! Almost forgot to update my ongoing DaBigBabes.

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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 4:33:13 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk
There is any posibility of rolling it in a already running Dababes game?

Only the device list is altered....

Yes, sir. It can update ongoing games. In PBEM, Japan has to run its turn first with the new data, then the Allies. And both have to have the same file and answer yes to the start query. But that's it.

Both BabesLite and DaBigBabes have been updated with this and nothing else since the map thing back in October; other data is good since August; Lite bomb update on Nov.22, DBB bomb update on Nov.23, so if you download on or after those dates you should be good to boogie.


@blitzk

I'll go for it if you want to.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to JWE)
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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 4:38:11 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk
There is any posibility of rolling it in a already running Dababes game?

Only the device list is altered....

Yes, sir. It can update ongoing games. In PBEM, Japan has to run its turn first with the new data, then the Allies. And both have to have the same file and answer yes to the start query. But that's it.

Both BabesLite and DaBigBabes have been updated with this and nothing else since the map thing back in October; other data is good since August; Lite bomb update on Nov.22, DBB bomb update on Nov.23, so if you download on or after those dates you should be good to boogie.


Thanks for heads up! Almost forgot to update my ongoing DaBigBabes.


handy feature....a nice improvement from the old days when new device data would force a restart.

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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 7:17:50 PM   
Bliztk


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Yes! 

You are the best JWE !

One question, we run the replay with the old database, and then upgrade or run the combat replay with the database already overwrited ?

< Message edited by Bliztk -- 11/23/2011 7:24:49 PM >


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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 10:43:10 PM   
JWE

 

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Replay was generated by the old database, the old turn was run under the old database, so that's all you are gonna see.

You need to "run" a turn under the new database to see new database results. Game engine needs to grasp and process the new data and won't do that untill the next exe 'phase'. Does this make sense? If it doesn't, is there anything I can do I to make it clearer?

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RE: Bombing - 11/23/2011 10:53:46 PM   
Bliztk


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Then I will run the standard upgrade method.

1) Japanese runs Combat Replay with old version
2) Japanese saves without orders, then upgrade to the next version
3) Allied watched CR with old version
4) Japanese upgrades and input orders with the new version
5) Allied upgrades and input orders with the new version
6) Japanese runs new turn with new version

One last question, the file with the devices is wpd028.dat ?


Thanks anyway !


< Message edited by Bliztk -- 11/23/2011 10:57:56 PM >


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