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RE: Matrix games on Steam?

 
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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 8:20:42 AM   
ilovestrategy


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I'm a huge Steam fan.

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 9:00:19 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon
...unless you are employed by Steam of course......

It's not quite as black and white as you make out - you could be a developer who could do with more exposure than a niche wargaming company and their website can afford.

Trouble is with this "niche" market is it is kept niche...by high prices and low exposure. You can nit pick at that all you want with naming specifics - but Matrix games DO have low exposure and it suits the business model to keep it that way (I've put my tin hat on here obviously!).

I'm sure people like to think there's a correlation between exposure and return. There may be - there may not be.

Upshot is, if it's not advertised "outside it's comfort zone", it's staying niche...and expensive. That's it.

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 9:38:10 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......


No,...the bottom line is actually.........we should each be able to make our own choice and not be limited just because you cant see why someone else would make a choice different than you.
While you like downloading setup files,..and entering serial keys,...not to mention finding the DVD the install file is on,....hoping it isnt scratched or cracked,...finding that serial key......entering it............... I would rather install steam and click on the title I own to downlaod and install it. So much easier, and never in any danger of being damaged or lost.
But as already mentioned the BIG point is the huge increase in customers and profit Matrix would see by having their games on steam.


But we are only guessing about the huge increase in customers aren't we? No one knows..... As far as I believe many of the clientele of Steam(and others of their ilk) are Ritalin-fueled adolescents who wouldn't know what the term "turned-based" was if it bit them on the ass...... I know I partake of Steam ever once in a while but somehow can't picture War In The East on a 10 buck sale.....I really cant picture them selling more than 1000 or so copies that way. Hell, half of the people would stop after the 4th or 5th word and go on to the next big shiny thing because it has BIG GUNS! ! 3-D BOOBIES !!!! RTS !!!!! FIRST PERSON !!!!LATEST N GREATEST !!!!!

I know people brought up Paradox Games as an example of wargames making it on Steam. There is a big difference between a pseudo rts like hearts of iron and WiTE.. Personally I like them both but most of those who play HOI probably know of Matrix, have been here but don't like turn-based or the Board-game style of WiTE and most of the other Matrix titles puts them off...Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....


On the other hand, I used to be solely an FPS player, loving the latest and greatest. I loved "sims" which weren't actually sims but were visceral

Then I stumbled across Red Devils Over Arnhem. It was cheap - maybe £10 at the time in a shop. I looked at the back and I think the first day I put it back on the shelf. Second time I saw it, I bought it - after a few turns, I put it away. I just didn't get it.

Then one day I found the website for the game (here) had some info from members and never looked back.

So to suggest that the majority of Steam users are ritalin fuelled adolescents and would not be interested in turn based games is naive. It will be true to a point. But bearing in mind how many members steam has, it would be worth a punt to get new blood in. Get new blood in = more customers = more sales = lower prices.

And the number could grow exponentially...each new wargamer knowing several people, half of whom he could turn to wargaming (all speculation of course)...but it stands to reason that the more exposure you have, the more customers you'll get

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 12:10:20 PM   
J P Falcon

 

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I can see where if Matrix were to place all of their older titles (you know, the ones that are buried in the bottom depths of hell on this forum) on Steam, that it might indeed help draw people to this site to check out the premium titles. Battlefront has been doing that with their older games like Strategic Command, so perhaps what meager revenue you might generate via Steam, might help introduce people to this site and the premium products.

So, now that I am not looking at this from a myopic viewpoint of a gamer who does not want Matrix to abandon their current setup, but from a broader perspective, I can see the value of adding Steam as an option.

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 12:23:06 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I enjoy using Steam. It's essentially almost a one stop shop - and does have some great deals. I'm by no means a lover of it - but it suits my purpose.

What I would say though is the Matrix system is somewhat flawed. The transition from Digital River to Plimus was meant to be (and on the surface seemed to be) a good thing for us. As is, I'm not entirely sure how I can re-download a game I purchased should I have to and in fact cannot (and have never been able to) get the details of a game I bought using Paypal as the method of payment (because I'm on holiday somewhere and forgot to add it, or the disk I copied it to is not reading, or I've lost my backup copy etc, etc, etc).

Having recently had this issue (and I've noticed posts from others who have been at the mercy of the cumbersome re-download process), it made the system look clunky. Sure contacting support they were on the case - but I did have to wait for a response. Why in gods name can I not log in to my member area and download my game...it shouldn't matter that it's been a year, two years, three years since I bought it....(and before anyone gets too uppity, I know it's not Matrix obligation to do so - but it would be a nice thing to supply their members with)

Point is the Matrix system for redownloads is flawed. They could hold a download counter against each purchase so you can't download it more than twice, three times, x times in a year...

With Steam, as much as people hate it, I can reinstall a game I purchased way back when from them...by going to my library and finding it in my uninstalled list and installing - it's that simple. On the negative side, their support is much worse than Matrix very good support system.


All that as it may be (pointing out the issues with Matrix system at present), Steam could open a world of new players...and that could be good for the genre...maybe not make it so niche?

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 11/10/2011 12:27:10 PM >


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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 12:36:47 PM   
Yogi the Great


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Just because you dont like it doesnt mean you should try to prevent others from using it.



Actually I have never suggested that at all. Many times, you don't get the choice. A Game (including what use to be one of my favorite series) if on Steam are released only that way. I'm not sure if it would be a viable financial decision to release the game in both Steam and non-steam versions. My point is simply if Matrix goes to putting a game on Steam ONLY, I will not buy it. Matrix like any other good company will make such decisions on a business profit level. If they think they can make more money using Steam, they will do so and they should. So the question really becomes this; If they go to Steam will they gain more customers then they lose?

Maybe, if anyone is trying to prevent others from buying what they want, you are accusing the wrong side of the argument.


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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 1:56:55 PM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

So much easier, and never in any danger of being damaged or lost.


Two weeks ago in Pennsylvania, we had a small nor'easter storm that knocked out my cable and internet for four days. I had power so I could use the computer, but since most of my steam library is not installed, I could not play any steam games. I just took a good old Matrix DISC of Hannibal and, internet or not, was playing in no time. Matrix 1, steam 0.

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 2:05:18 PM   
apathetic lurker

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

quote:

Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....


Nay. Paradox's style of Grand Strategy is more in-depth and stimulating than any board game i've ever played. It is simply a case of old-school vs. new-school. Many of Matrix's wargames are of that old-school-something-kinda-like-Panzer-General-but-better-ish feel. Which is fantastic. Paradox's titles are on the extreme opposite end of the wargaming spectrum, where advanced AI, layers and layers of data for you the player to deal with, and then the fight. I like to think of the principle difference as:

Panzer General is all about the battle. Not in a small way, but in a strategic big-picture way. Hearts of Iron is about the four years of back-breaking work that went into getting your Army to that battle in the first place--and then the Battle, to boot. Both good approaches. Nothing 'lite' about either of them.



Read my statement again.......I said "those that I personally know" not the general group...It's probably that your definition of wargames-lite differs from mine. To me HOI is lite...But then again I like my wargames complex for the most part.......

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 2:39:09 PM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Upshot is, if it's not advertised "outside it's comfort zone", it's staying niche...and expensive. That's it.


Funny then that Slitherine/Matrix goes to general gaming conventions to promote their titles (Spiel, Gencon, ... )

Greetz,

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 2:45:43 PM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
Paradox's titles are on the extreme opposite end of the wargaming spectrum, where advanced AI,


ROTFLMAO

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/10/2011 7:47:45 PM   
apathetic lurker

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
Paradox's titles are on the extreme opposite end of the wargaming spectrum, where advanced AI,


ROTFLMAO

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




Yes , I noticed that advanced AI blurb too...lol


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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 12:59:04 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

quote:

Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....

Nay. Paradox's style of Grand Strategy is more in-depth and stimulating than any board game i've ever played. It is simply a case of old-school vs. new-school. Many of Matrix's wargames are of that old-school-something-kinda-like-Panzer-General-but-better-ish feel. Which is fantastic. Paradox's titles are on the extreme opposite end of the wargaming spectrum, where advanced AI, layers and layers of data for you the player to deal with, and then the fight. I like to think of the principle difference as:


I think he hasn't heard of Gary Grigsby games The detail there is tremendous and combat is resolved in more detail than abstract Pardox titles.
Also a lot of Matrix fans value historical accuracy. Paradox games are mostly sandbox which means you can get very outlandish results.

And the ones made by Panther Games offerd here in Matrix has the best AI in my opinion.

He thinks all games here are like Panzer Corps. Hmmm... maybe Panzer Corps is really actually introducing new people to the genre. :)

< Message edited by jomni -- 11/11/2011 1:02:47 AM >


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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 5:39:23 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Very unlikely - Steam would not be interested in these type of games. They only want cheap mass-market games. Can you imagine War in the East at $80 :) It just wouldn't happen.

So you'd have to buy direct from us. However we have a very simple serial number system that means none of the hassle of remembering account details etc. Once you buy the game you own it and can install as often as you like and download it again later.



Eagle Dynamics are very niche titles that were both were $80 upon release.

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 10:39:32 AM   
Iain McNeil


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The serial number issue is one we're addressing. You no longer have to enter serials for patches - it looks them up and auto enters them for you. New patches will have this easier to use system. We could even skip the step completely if it detects a valid serial.

On the Steam argyuments we're not convionced that the Steam audience is a good match for the majority of the catalogue. Take in to account also that Steam take 30%, you have to customise your code to use their system which is a significant amount of work for the number of games we're talking about and Steam absolutely require you to slash your prices. Overall you have to sell a lot more copies to just stand still in terms of revenues. It is not teh alm dunk that everyone thinks it is. It also fragments the community which has an intagible cost but something we are very aware of and reluctant to do.

Another thing to bear in mind is Steam get 200 submissions a week and only 1 person allocated to review them. I'd guess only about 1% of the games people try to get on steam actually get on steam. The vast majority are never looked at or rejected. I'm guessing the majority of our line up would slide to the "dont even review category :)"

Having said all this it may be something we trial at some point. Never say never!


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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 11:38:10 AM   
Gary Childress


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Quite frankly I love the current setup with Matrix. I buy the DL/physical copy. I DL the game and put it on my computer. No hassles no fuss. It's easy to do and once I own the game I can put it on as many of my computers as I want. The physical copy arrives later and I have a backup in case my HD goes kaput and I lose my DL copy. Granted you can still get your DL copy later if you lose it but for me it's less hassle just to pick up the physical copy and install it. Easy as 123.



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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 11:57:55 AM   
J P Falcon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The serial number issue is one we're addressing. You no longer have to enter serials for patches - it looks them up and auto enters them for you. New patches will have this easier to use system. We could even skip the step completely if it detects a valid serial.

On the Steam argyuments we're not convionced that the Steam audience is a good match for the majority of the catalogue. Take in to account also that Steam take 30%, you have to customise your code to use their system which is a significant amount of work for the number of games we're talking about and Steam absolutely require you to slash your prices. Overall you have to sell a lot more copies to just stand still in terms of revenues. It is not teh alm dunk that everyone thinks it is. It also fragments the community which has an intagible cost but something we are very aware of and reluctant to do.

Another thing to bear in mind is Steam get 200 submissions a week and only 1 person allocated to review them. I'd guess only about 1% of the games people try to get on steam actually get on steam. The vast majority are never looked at or rejected. I'm guessing the majority of our line up would slide to the "dont even review category :)"

Having said all this it may be something we trial at some point. Never say never!



Interesting...I think many people never realized that it is not so much if a game should be on Steam but rather if Steam would want the game....

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 12:06:17 PM   
martok


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I, for one, hope Matrix games are never on Steam. They're too good for it.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The serial number issue is one we're addressing. You no longer have to enter serials for patches - it looks them up and auto enters them for you. New patches will have this easier to use system. We could even skip the step completely if it detects a valid serial.


Huzzah! This is happy news. Thanks Iain!




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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 1:38:43 PM   
JudgeDredd


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nope - don't want to be dragged into this so "nothing to see...move along"

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 11/11/2011 2:27:59 PM >


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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 1:39:56 PM   
JudgeDredd


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double post

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 2:32:37 PM   
apathetic lurker

 

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Not a single Paradox can ever be more in-depth than that old SPI boardgame Campaign for North Africa

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 3:56:13 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi Judge,

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Point is the Matrix system for redownloads is flawed. They could hold a download counter against each purchase so you can't download it more than twice, three times, x times in a year...


Have you looked in the Members Club?

Regards,

- Erik



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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 4:02:41 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Hi Erik

Has it changed since August?

I couldn't download from there...it was a game which I had purchased some time ago (over a year I believe) - and my download had expired - that's the issue I'm talking about.

If that's changed and a member who has registered his game with his account on here can download that game when he pleases (even with some acceptable limitations), then you are to be applauded (again) for listening. On the other hand, if it hasn't and my download ability can still expire meaning I have to contact the support desk then it's still flawed imo

Of course I'm comparing to Steam where as I said I could download a game from years ago...it would be there and waiting for me to download (until they go tits up - which is what some people on these boards and others seem to be hoping for)

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 4:09:06 PM   
apathetic lurker

 

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Speaking of Steam, some naer'do'well went and stole a bunch of info from Steam on Sunday....billing addy's, passwords, CC info and all the other fun stuff.....

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 4:39:03 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I couldn't download from there...it was a game which I had purchased some time ago (over a year I believe) - and my download had expired - that's the issue I'm talking about.


If you've registered your game, you should be able to request a new download link automatically through the Members Club, then receive it in a matter of minutes and start re-downloading. There are no limitations. We do not limit the number of times you wish to re-download your game, except per link but there's no limit on how many times you can request a new link.

Regarding comparisons to Steam, while I also use Steam, it's worth noting that all of our games are DRM-free. As long as you download them once (or get the physical copy) and store the file and the serial number, there's nothing else you need from us. If Matrix disappears (hopefully not!) in the future, it won't matter as long as you keep your copies in a place where you can find them. I still have my boxed games for my Apple II+ in the basement, so it's not that hard. I can't say the same for all my Steam games.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 5:09:10 PM   
Anguille


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Erik...i love ya

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 5:24:53 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Erik - I agree totally that your serial number system is by far the least intrusive - and I've said so before.

The Steam debate (I say debate with a great big fat tongue in cheek) is someone asking if you were ever going to sell on there. They were not suggesting you went and sold solely on there - but somehow it got converted to that. Next thing you know the vipers are out.

Your members area was not working like that when I last had to re-download - when was this introduced?

And whilst I have your attention - when are we going to be able to view our orders? If you paid by paypal you cannot retreive your order info - and that's been an issue since the days of Digital River. I cannot see any of my orders on Plimus because it doesn't accept anything other than the last 4 digits of your credit card and email address.

apathetic lurker
Steam are not the first and won't be the last - I'm not being erm...apathetic about it but I presume you buy using credit card from Matrix (or other online retailers)? The only reason buying through Matrix is any safer than buying through iTunes, Sony, Steam or any other big online retailer is their size. I would suggest they are as vulnerable (from a technology standpoint) as any other online merchant. You put your credit card info into the web and there's a chance it will get stolen.

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RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 6:09:36 PM   
Rivercube

 

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The most important thing for me (and i have 20 games from your shop like WITPAE, WITE, CC Series) is no DRM. I can accept a little higher prices, but i hate DRM. I like to play my games when i want, on the computer i want and in time that i want. Even when Matrix passes away i can play the games (and i hope this never happens...).

Stay as you are.

A true fan from Germany.

Have a nice weekend!

Rivercube

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Post #: 57
RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 7:02:09 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Here's the bottom line to this debate.....if you have a choice, why on earth would you want to have an internet connected game installer on your pc, if you can have the ability to simply download the setup files for a game, and install them anywhere you want whether you are connected to the internet or not (a 'la Matrix)? I understand that if there is a particular title you want, and it is only available via Steam, then go ahead and buy it. But to request a gaming company to abandon their simple install approach and go the Steam route makes absolutely no sense, unless you are employed by Steam of course......


No,...the bottom line is actually.........we should each be able to make our own choice and not be limited just because you cant see why someone else would make a choice different than you.
While you like downloading setup files,..and entering serial keys,...not to mention finding the DVD the install file is on,....hoping it isnt scratched or cracked,...finding that serial key......entering it............... I would rather install steam and click on the title I own to downlaod and install it. So much easier, and never in any danger of being damaged or lost.
But as already mentioned the BIG point is the huge increase in customers and profit Matrix would see by having their games on steam.


But we are only guessing about the huge increase in customers aren't we? No one knows..... As far as I believe many of the clientele of Steam(and others of their ilk) are Ritalin-fueled adolescents who wouldn't know what the term "turned-based" was if it bit them on the ass...... I know I partake of Steam ever once in a while but somehow can't picture War In The East on a 10 buck sale.....I really cant picture them selling more than 1000 or so copies that way. Hell, half of the people would stop after the 4th or 5th word and go on to the next big shiny thing because it has BIG GUNS! ! 3-D BOOBIES !!!! RTS !!!!! FIRST PERSON !!!!LATEST N GREATEST !!!!!

I know people brought up Paradox Games as an example of wargames making it on Steam. There is a big difference between a pseudo rts like hearts of iron and WiTE.. Personally I like them both but most of those who play HOI probably know of Matrix, have been here but don't like turn-based or the Board-game style of WiTE and most of the other Matrix titles puts them off...Most of those that I personally know who own HOI are wargame-lite type of people.....


On the other hand, I used to be solely an FPS player, loving the latest and greatest. I loved "sims" which weren't actually sims but were visceral

Then I stumbled across Red Devils Over Arnhem. It was cheap - maybe £10 at the time in a shop. I looked at the back and I think the first day I put it back on the shelf. Second time I saw it, I bought it - after a few turns, I put it away. I just didn't get it.

Then one day I found the website for the game (here) had some info from members and never looked back.

So to suggest that the majority of Steam users are ritalin fuelled adolescents and would not be interested in turn based games is naive. It will be true to a point. But bearing in mind how many members steam has, it would be worth a punt to get new blood in. Get new blood in = more customers = more sales = lower prices.

And the number could grow exponentially...each new wargamer knowing several people, half of whom he could turn to wargaming (all speculation of course)...but it stands to reason that the more exposure you have, the more customers you'll get

True. Also, the main reason why the next-gen gamers have trouble with complex games is that they lack exposition to a broad range of game genres that we had when we were young. I grown up in times when there were lots of FMV shooters but no one was claiming that they are the only proper kind of gaming. Nowadays big publishers focus almost exclusively on this kind of games and do a propaganda about how all other kinds of games are outdated.

I think it would be good to think about some way of introducing new people to wargaming.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 11/11/2011 7:04:02 PM >


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Post #: 58
RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 8:55:43 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1023
Joined: 2/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Take in to account also that Steam take 30%



The games Steam sell are digital products.
Those products are already made,...so no large cost for development.
Selling a digital product after it has been created/finished/patched costs next to nothing, since their is no physical storage, shipping and no production/development required.
These facts mean that 30% of a few sales is almost all profit, while 100% of nothing is always nothing.
This is also the reason why some are miffed about prices rarely going down. Getting many more sales at a reduced price (and mostly profit) is better than not getting the sales because the price is never reduced.

(in reply to Iain McNeil)
Post #: 59
RE: Matrix games on Steam? - 11/11/2011 9:09:17 PM   
apathetic lurker

 

Posts: 1342
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Erik - I agree totally that your serial number system is by far the least intrusive - and I've said so before.

The Steam debate (I say debate with a great big fat tongue in cheek) is someone asking if you were ever going to sell on there. They were not suggesting you went and sold solely on there - but somehow it got converted to that. Next thing you know the vipers are out.

Your members area was not working like that when I last had to re-download - when was this introduced?

And whilst I have your attention - when are we going to be able to view our orders? If you paid by paypal you cannot retreive your order info - and that's been an issue since the days of Digital River. I cannot see any of my orders on Plimus because it doesn't accept anything other than the last 4 digits of your credit card and email address.

apathetic lurker
Steam are not the first and won't be the last - I'm not being erm...apathetic about it but I presume you buy using credit card from Matrix (or other online retailers)? The only reason buying through Matrix is any safer than buying through iTunes, Sony, Steam or any other big online retailer is their size. I would suggest they are as vulnerable (from a technology standpoint) as any other online merchant. You put your credit card info into the web and there's a chance it will get stolen.


Without a question.Every online merchant is vulnerable......That is why I do prefer Paypal for all my online stuff...

I am not a steam hater....I have over 20 games in my steam library and I believe I avg about 5 bucks per game......I'm just cheap :-)



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