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bypassing defending units

 
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bypassing defending units - 11/8/2011 11:28:09 PM   
edinakid23

 

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Is there a way to have my advancing units bypass/continue past defending enemy units in order to drive forward towards specific goals? In some scenerios, I don't want my leading units to stop and engage the defending units. I want my follow up troops to do that job.
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RE: bypassing defending units - 11/9/2011 12:08:37 AM   
simovitch


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Try using 'avoidance' route, with low aggro settings and bypass checked.

Inherently high aggro units like the 'SS' will be hard to keep from engaging the enemy... which makes it tough to simulate the timetable of KG Peiper's blitz through Honsfeld in 'Elsenborn Ridge'.

In a tactical sense, It was rare that an advancing column would ignore enemy troops within firing range and keep driving along. Not everyone had a tank or halftrack to duck into. I find it best to detach an infantry company from the main force, call in artillery, and try to blast the defender out of the way.

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simovitch


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RE: bypassing defending units - 11/9/2011 12:03:35 PM   
Genghis Khan


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From: Alberta, Canada
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Basically, I found that if the defending unit can get a shot off at your units, then it's (your unit) going to stop and take cover, or stop and return fire, or stop and then attack,
but the "STOP" part seems inevitable unless you can prevent the defender from firing on your units. To prevent the defender from firing, I've taken to putting down a
barrage between my units and the defending unit to, hopefully, prevent my units from being spotted (which doesn't always work). All of this assumes that you know the defender's
location and there's enough room to place a barrage between the two forces. I'm under the impression, that "Smoke Screens" will be available as part of the next patch level -- which
is due any time now. The ability to lay smoke will definitely add a new dynamic to the game, that and help me save on artillery shells. Now if you're talking about a defending unit
that you discover as you are racing down the road, then there isn't much that can be done unless, of coarse, you can get a scouting unit out front. Should there be an "Advance Under
Fire" or "Advance at All Costs" option? I think so, but the potential cost of using such an option should also be very high, because, as a defender, if a column of fat juicy tanks
expose their flanks and rears to my anti-tank guns, then there's a price that must be paid.

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RE: bypassing defending units - 11/9/2011 2:26:06 PM   
phoenix

 

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I never heard anything about smoke in the patch, Gengis. You sure? I don't see it in the change list (it's a long list, so I might have missed it....)

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RE: bypassing defending units - 11/9/2011 3:40:02 PM   
Genghis Khan


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Ahh great, now I have to go over that list again.
And you're right phoenix, I don't see smoke listed, I probably saw it on somebodies wish list and thought "that would be nice."
Well, if they are starting on an "Eastern Front" version, maybe it will make it in there -- so much for conserving my Arty Ammo.
I've been toying with a Squad level simulation demo of "Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy", which I can run natively on my MAC,
and it handles smoke quite well: it takes time to develop, it drifts with the wind, it lingers for a fair amount of time and it's
saved me from getting my ass shot off more then once. But it's a two way street, since it conceals your opponent as well. It's a
3D simulation (which I'm not a great fan of), but it's main focus seems to be tactics and not a lot of 3D eye candy so I'm fairly
impressed with it, although I do tend to get lost zooming around with that damned 3D camera. But for a squad level simulation, I'd
say it's one of the better ones.

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RE: bypassing defending units - 11/9/2011 9:24:16 PM   
phoenix

 

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Yes. Been playing CMBN again whilst awaiting the patch. Even though BFTB was just fine, really, without the patch, it seems most people, me included, can't bring themselves to play it now, until it's patched.

I do enjoy CMBN, as I enjoyed CMSF, but the lack of AI really bugs me. There is AI, of course, but not like in BFTB. Your own troops seem to either follow orders or duck and cower (that's the extent of the AI for them - there's no initiative at all - and needless to say, the existence of commanders and HQs doesn't mean that you can just give orders to them and let them come up with something sensible - instead you have to give orders to every single bloody unit, which is tedious, and not very real at all). The enemy AI seems to work on a script. They can do effective things, but if you follow some basic tactical rules very carefully (those rules about amassing fire superiority explained by Paulding at Armchair General, for example - they are excellent, by the way, and would work in BFTB too, suitably extrapolated - http://www.armchairgeneral.com/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy-tactics-a-video-series) - then you will easily win. Some scenarios are scripted so that you can't do anything to win except take high casualties, but you will probably still win, with care. Timing of support is crucial, of course. I just wish they had tried to put some more interesting AI in there.

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RE: bypassing defending units - 11/10/2011 1:41:38 AM   
Genghis Khan


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From: Alberta, Canada
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Personally, I'm looking for a squad level simulation not as a replacement for BFTB, but more as a complementary system of play. Although there are a lot of similarities in the
tactics employed, the differences in scale, with respect to both area and time, makes for two different games to my way of thinking: one company attacking, or meeting another
company in BFTB is a whole scenario at the squad level, so I don't see them as competing systems. As for the AI in CMBN, or the lack thereof, that seems to be a common complaint
for all the squad level simulations that I've considered so far and I think I've considered most of them. I've asked if Panther Games was considering a squad level sim, but I think
they already have a boat load of fish to fry and aren't looking for any more headaches then those they've already got, or that's the impression I got anyway. With CMBN, I find
company strength engagements are not too much to handle on my own and I have to honestly say that I haven't played it enough to have an informed opinion with respect to the AI
opponent, although I'm sure your assessment is quite accurate. What I do like are the number of options available for "Head to Head" play: Real-Time over a network, or WEGO for both
Hotseat and PBEM; something that is not offered by most of the other systems. And I've always found that Humans make the best AI opponents.

Now, I've got to figure out a way to tie all this into "bypassing defending units" before I get one of these: Sorry for the sidetrack edinakid23.

< Message edited by Genghis Khan -- 11/10/2011 1:59:52 AM >

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RE: bypassing defending units - 11/10/2011 8:37:34 AM   
phoenix

 

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You must be much more skillfull than I, because I find it very difficult to keep command of all units in CMBN at crucial times. You give, say, 1st platoon a mission at one side of the map and then get caught up with 2nd platoon at the other. Because the units have no initiative except to hunker down when attacked too fiercely, in order to ensure their survival you have to be constantly fine tuning their orders. Whilst you're doing that for 2nd platoon, 1st platoon has bogged down or been shot up. This problem exists because there's no commander on the map except you. Which is highly unrealistic. What is that meant to be a simulation of? It's a game, ok, but how good that type of game is, surely, depends at least in part on how well it simulates something or other (tactical level warfare in WW2, for CMBN?) - but if you're the only commander for an entire company (there are subordinate HQs but they're just radio points, really, they don't give commands) then that's hardly a decent simulation of anything. It wouldn't be so bad if you could actually command real 'missions', but you can't give anything like a 'mission', like 'take point A' or 'cover point A' or 'suppress Area B', because any order you give just vanishes once the AI decides the men should cower. What you need is that they take some action when they come under fire - cower a bit, move back, re-group, go round the side, keep trying for the objective you gave them in some way, without you having to constantly intervene. BFTB does this to some extent, and so simulates a whole lot of things much better. That's a valid comparison, I think. This is a terrible rant of mine, sorry. I know CMBN can be fun, but it's really disappointing, I think, that no developers do anything with the AI (along the lines of BFTB) to make these games into more faithful simulations of command, in some way. My guess is that messing with the AI to make ever more complicated levels of scripting (until it seems like it's not even a script) is actually back-breaking, time-consuming hard work, probably very boring. So why do it if no one complains that you haven't? Or when you can mess around with eye-candy. Don't get me wrong - CMBN is like chess compared to Battlefield 3, but the same comparison applies between BFTB and CMBN. And it affects things when playing a human too, of course. BFTB is superb against a human, because you still have this AI animating the choices of your subordinate HQs, still have them behaving on what looks like initiative. Your enemy AI is better, of course, in CMBN if you're playing a brain, but you still lack subordinates, you still have the problems I gripe about above.

Sorry. You're right, this is way off message...

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Post #: 8
RE: bypassing defending units - 11/10/2011 3:52:42 PM   
Genghis Khan


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From: Alberta, Canada
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The answer is: I rarely move both platoons at the same time. I do everything I can to prevent a unit from getting into a cross-fire situation, so when "A" platoon is on the move, "B" platoon is in support and the
immediate goal of "A" platoon is to get into a position to support a move by "B" platoon, ideally by putting any opposition to "B" platoon in a cross-fire situation. And of course "B" platoons goal is to gain
a position to support "A" platoons next advance and so on. Of course this is a simplification of the process, but essentially each platoon acts as the others reserve as the situation develops and the more platoons
you have, the more options you have, but generally speaking I try to gain one vantage point at a time and the more support I have, the faster each point can usually be taken. I never meant to imply that CMBN was
anything like BFTB, because I know it's not, but I'm still looking for a squad level simulation and CMBN looks to be one of the better ones and as good as it is, BFTB is definitely not a squad level simulation.

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