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RTAF Unit Designations

 
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RTAF Unit Designations - 11/7/2011 9:55:21 AM   
elcid

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Lakewood Washington
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It has been difficult to identify Thai air units in the WWII era. However, I found some pre war material
which is pretty close. Since the Thai have a huge number of aircraft - in most cases - attrition would not
be a factor. However, the number of Hawk II and Hawk 75 might be slightly less than given here. The
main fighter was the Hawk III - and it was made domestically in addition to being purchased. The Hawk
II appears not to have been purchased directly, but indirectly - but the number was not clear before? It
now appears to have been 12 in 1932, before any Hawk III were obtained. If also appears the number of
Hawk 75 was only 12.

RTAF squadrons could have 12 machines, but usually operated only 9, and in the case of larger bombers,
only 6. There were hundreds of aircraft, mostly obsolescent. But the Hawk 75 was one of the very first
cannon equipped fighters in the world.

35 Wing:
34 Squadron - 9 V-93S called O-3U in USN (max 12)
50 Squadon - 9 Hawk III (max 12) called F-10

66 Wing:
1 Squadron - 12 x Ki-30 called Nagoya after the city of manufacture
2 Squadron - 12 x Ki-30
60 Squadron - 10 x Hawk 75 (originally 12)

73 Wing:
32 Squadron - 9 V-93S (max 12)
40 Squadron - 6 193WH in USAAF B-10
41 Squadron - 6 B-Th4 in JAAF Ki-21

74 Wing:
44 Squadron - 9 V-93S (max 12)
71 Squadron - 9 Hawk III (max 12) called F-10
72 Squadron - 9 Hawk III
73 Squadron - 9 Hawk III
80 Squadrn - 9 Hawk II (originally 12)

There was an unnumbered reconnaissance section which may have been associated with 73 Wing
or may have been independent. It operated 6 V-93S.

There was a general service squadron It operated many types, F-35 laiason in particular,
also Ki-30 and by some reports Ki-55 later in the war. It probably did not operate more than 12
machines, but had its choice of vastly more at the main RTAF base.

There was also a training squaron similarly outfitted and drawing from the same aircraft pool.

RTN had several detachments of floatplanes, about three land based, two single aircraft for use
on patrol ships, and a training element. The latter shipborne and training units used a special
WS-103 variant of a Japanese floatplane designed otherwise for submarine use. The other
land based elements were operating the E8N by the time the war began. It is alleged they
upgraded to E13 - but that is also alleged to be false.


< Message edited by elcid -- 11/7/2011 10:16:44 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/7/2011 4:42:01 PM   
Shark7


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Try here: http://www.scramble.nl/mil/7/thailand/types.htm

Gives all the types used by the RTAF, the correct RTAF aircraft designations, and the total number procured by the RTAF.

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RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/9/2011 1:00:56 AM   
wdolson

 

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It may be a typo, but I want to know the story of how they kept at least one B-10 in service until 1981!  I also don't know why it wasn't preserved in a museum.  You'd think the world's warbird collectors would be chomping at the bit to get one of those, even in the early 80s.

Bill


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RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/9/2011 3:30:42 AM   
YankeeAirRat


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Joined: 6/22/2005
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I don't think the website referenced is correct with regards to the Martin Bomber still flying into 1981. I say that considering that most of the references I have with regards to SE Asian nations during the Vietnam conflict recieved US military aid (such as the A-37, F-5A, T-28s, etc) that would have effectively rendered a 30+ yr old bomber with 0 supply/support ineffective even if they had reverse engineered some components in country. I am also very suspect of fence-checking magazines and websites like "Scramble" since they see a one time photo shot of an aircraft in a certain paint scheme or in flight near an actual operating unit, then will outright lie stating a unit is deployed in operations with that unit or even a certain a/c serial number was still flying when is supposedly crashed because they saw wreckage with that S/N and supposed that a write off occured due to excessive damage.

The Royal Thai Air Force information for World War 2 is very hard to get since Thailand was closed off to Western sources following the Japanese involvement in thier country and the active rebellion from the military to free Thailand. Most of the books that I have ever run across for information talk about either the Thai-French-Viet war in 1940 or talk about the SOE and OSS operations in Thailand against the Japanese puppet government or in supporting operations in the Buma portion of the theater. That said, I would suggest you contact the Royal Thai Air Force Museum and see if they might be able to help you with your research or contact the Royal Thai Air Force Public Affairs Office to see if they could help you with your research.

< Message edited by YankeeAirRat -- 11/9/2011 3:31:08 AM >


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RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/10/2011 7:00:54 PM   
elcid

 

Posts: 226
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From: Lakewood Washington
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Try here: http://www.scramble.nl/mil/7/thailand/types.htm

Gives all the types used by the RTAF, the correct RTAF aircraft designations, and the total number procured by the RTAF.



A very fine reference.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 5
RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/10/2011 7:08:04 PM   
elcid

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Lakewood Washington
Status: offline



quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

I don't think the website referenced is correct with regards to the Martin Bomber still flying into 1981. I say that considering that most of the references I have with regards to SE Asian nations during the Vietnam conflict recieved US military aid (such as the A-37, F-5A, T-28s, etc) that would have effectively rendered a 30+ yr old bomber with 0 supply/support ineffective even if they had reverse engineered some components in country. I am also very suspect of fence-checking magazines and websites like "Scramble" since they see a one time photo shot of an aircraft in a certain paint scheme or in flight near an actual operating unit, then will outright lie stating a unit is deployed in operations with that unit or even a certain a/c serial number was still flying when is supposedly crashed because they saw wreckage with that S/N and supposed that a write off occured due to excessive damage.

The Royal Thai Air Force information for World War 2 is very hard to get since Thailand was closed off to Western sources following the Japanese involvement in thier country and the active rebellion from the military to free Thailand. Most of the books that I have ever run across for information talk about either the Thai-French-Viet war in 1940 or talk about the SOE and OSS operations in Thailand against the Japanese puppet government or in supporting operations in the Buma portion of the theater. That said, I would suggest you contact the Royal Thai Air Force Museum and see if they might be able to help you with your research or contact the Royal Thai Air Force Public Affairs Office to see if they could help you with your research.


Scramble does not lie. But they are often very out of date. It is a volunteer effort and depends critically on the material available and the
time to work it into the databases. Unfortunately, the time available to work on Chinese air forces has declined at the very time they
are rapidly changing inventory - so it is no longer very reilable - in particular re organizations that have changed function. But the older
materials are remarkably fine in most instances.

I must concur - I doubt a B-10 was flying in 1981. I do not remember one even in 1967, when I was paying attention nearby - and made an effort to identify every machine that was airworthy in the area.

(in reply to YankeeAirRat)
Post #: 6
RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/10/2011 8:31:22 PM   
YankeeAirRat


Posts: 624
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: elcid

Scramble does not lie. But they are often very out of date. It is a volunteer effort and depends critically on the material available and the
time to work it into the databases.


I will belive that as soon as you tell me there is a Four lane bridge to Midway Island from Okalohma City. Scramble had listed a pair of EA-6B Prowlers that I worked on as late as 2009 as being written off in 2001, let alone being in the wrong squadrons when they were supposedly written of in 2001. Scramble and all over fence checking groups are not better then Aviation Weekly Spy in how wrong thier data is, even if it is volunteer; IMHO they are no better then to wrap fish or line a dog cage with.


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RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/11/2011 2:49:05 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7139
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat


quote:

ORIGINAL: elcid

Scramble does not lie. But they are often very out of date. It is a volunteer effort and depends critically on the material available and the
time to work it into the databases.


I will belive that as soon as you tell me there is a Four lane bridge to Midway Island from Okalohma City. Scramble had listed a pair of EA-6B Prowlers that I worked on as late as 2009 as being written off in 2001, let alone being in the wrong squadrons when they were supposedly written of in 2001. Scramble and all over fence checking groups are not better then Aviation Weekly Spy in how wrong thier data is, even if it is volunteer; IMHO they are no better then to wrap fish or line a dog cage with.



Just keep in mind you won't find any perfect reference on the internet (or in hardcopy for that matter).

Things change all the time. However, for the info ElCid was looking for (the aircraft designations), Scramble does give that correctly.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 8
RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/11/2011 10:09:31 PM   
Jorm


Posts: 433
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline
An excellent resource book on this is "Aerial Nationalism - a History of Aviation in Thailand" Edward M. Young

Lucky for me our work library has a copy.

THE RTAF OOB 22 December 1941


Kong Bin Noi Phasom 85 (wing)
Foong Bin (sqn) 11 Type 26 Ki-30 x 11
Sqn 12 Type 26 Ki-30 x 11

95 wing
sqn 16 Type 16 Hawk 75N x9
sqn 51 Type 18 hawk IIx7, Hawk IIs x 8 from training school
sqn 61 Type 41 139W x5 (the japanese did give them the nine captured dutch type 139's to maintain these aircraft and to create a second SQN of them)

90 Wing
21 sqn type 23 corsair x9
41 sqn type 17 Hawk III x 10
62 sqn type 61 Ki-21 x 9

52 sqn type 17 Hawk iii x 10 , split over two locations
53 sqn type 23 corsair x 9 , split over 2 locations

80 wing
23 sqn type 23 corsair x 9
33 sqn type 23 corsair x 9
43 sqn type 17 Hawk III x 10
22 sqn type 23 corsair x9
31 sqn type 23 corsair x9 , x5 in two locations
32 sqn type 23 corsair x9
10 sqn Type 86 504Nx 28, type 87 corsair trainer x 11
20 sqn type 23 Corsair x6, type 17 Hawk III

it lists the locations etc as well, but its too much to type unless any one is very keen i can PDF the page and email it. i also spoketo a RTAF officer about this stuff, but he didnt really say much other than talk abut the feeling of the RTAF and the japanese at the time.

The RTAF was in a significant transitional phase just before the war so the organisation changed quite alot over the years from 1939 to 1941.
The RTN ordered x12 E8N2 float planes, November 1940

The book details the complete history and development of the RTAF and its aviation industry of the time. It also rather interestingly has allot of the french OOB too and has a great chapter with allot of after action reports for the thai-fenchindochina war

The are a number of OOB's that track the RTAF through 1930s to 1945.

this link gives airframe resolution on RTAF aircraft
http://www.thai-aviation.net/files/Air_Force_Summary.pdf




< Message edited by Jorm -- 11/11/2011 10:52:35 PM >

(in reply to elcid)
Post #: 9
RE: RTAF Unit Designations - 11/12/2011 8:35:59 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7139
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

An excellent resource book on this is "Aerial Nationalism - a History of Aviation in Thailand" Edward M. Young

Lucky for me our work library has a copy.

THE RTAF OOB 22 December 1941


Kong Bin Noi Phasom 85 (wing)
Foong Bin (sqn) 11 Type 26 Ki-30 x 11
Sqn 12 Type 26 Ki-30 x 11

95 wing
sqn 16 Type 16 Hawk 75N x9
sqn 51 Type 18 hawk IIx7, Hawk IIs x 8 from training school
sqn 61 Type 41 139W x5 (the japanese did give them the nine captured dutch type 139's to maintain these aircraft and to create a second SQN of them)

90 Wing
21 sqn type 23 corsair x9
41 sqn type 17 Hawk III x 10
62 sqn type 61 Ki-21 x 9

52 sqn type 17 Hawk iii x 10 , split over two locations
53 sqn type 23 corsair x 9 , split over 2 locations

80 wing
23 sqn type 23 corsair x 9
33 sqn type 23 corsair x 9
43 sqn type 17 Hawk III x 10
22 sqn type 23 corsair x9
31 sqn type 23 corsair x9 , x5 in two locations
32 sqn type 23 corsair x9
10 sqn Type 86 504Nx 28, type 87 corsair trainer x 11
20 sqn type 23 Corsair x6, type 17 Hawk III

it lists the locations etc as well, but its too much to type unless any one is very keen i can PDF the page and email it. i also spoketo a RTAF officer about this stuff, but he didnt really say much other than talk abut the feeling of the RTAF and the japanese at the time.

The RTAF was in a significant transitional phase just before the war so the organisation changed quite alot over the years from 1939 to 1941.
The RTN ordered x12 E8N2 float planes, November 1940

The book details the complete history and development of the RTAF and its aviation industry of the time. It also rather interestingly has allot of the french OOB too and has a great chapter with allot of after action reports for the thai-fenchindochina war

The are a number of OOB's that track the RTAF through 1930s to 1945.

this link gives airframe resolution on RTAF aircraft
http://www.thai-aviation.net/files/Air_Force_Summary.pdf





And actually the handful of North American P-64s were actually ordered by Thailand and seized once the war started. There were 6 of them en route to Thailand on Dec. 7, all of them rerouted to Hawaii and disarmed to be used as trainers. The P-64 was known as the NA-68 prior to the seizure. Could lead to some interesting scenarios if one were to tweak the arrival date a bit, it is possible they would have done license production similar to the Hawk III and V93S Corsairs.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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