Late War German Camo units

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Late War German Camo units

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Late War German Camo units - 11/5/2011 10:36:59 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12667
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
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This series has evolved a long way from the white wash units in PCOWS. We have had various discussions about how to handle changes in uniforms and camo schemes. Spellir did a lot of work to make the various German infantry and AFVs. I began to think about the gray 251s in late war scenarios and thought that spellir had made some gelb or camo ones. He did. There are 251Cs and Ds and bunches of 250s. I started looking at the campaign files and realised that these were made when there were no other choices. I am going to attempt to edit the files and would like some suggestions on what to substitute for the current units. For example, this is the 7th Panzer Div early summer 43 core. Starting 6/1/43

<coreunits>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IIIL" unitname="HQ 3/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IIF" unitname="1/3/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="5" max="5"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IIIL" unitname="2/3/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="5" max="5"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Grenadier 43" unitname="1/1/2-6 PzGren" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3"></unit>
<unit unitid="Opel Blitz" unitname="1/1/2-6 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 222/5" unitname="1/1-37 Aufkl" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2"></unit>
<unit unitid="81mm Mortar" unitname="1/2-6 81mm Mortar" exp="Veteran" number="6" max="6" probability="A=0.17;D=0.33"></unit>
<unit unitid="105mm Artillery" unitname="105mm Artillery" exp="Veteran" number="4" max="4" probability="A=0.17;D=0.33"></unit>
<unit unitid="150mm Artillery" unitname="150mm Artillery" exp="Veteran" number="4" max="4" probability="A=0.08;D=0.17"></unit>
<unit unitid="JU-87 Stuka" unitname="JU-87 Stuka" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.1;D=0.1"></unit>
<unit unitid="FlaK 36" unitname="88mm FlaK" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.1;D=0.2"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 222/5" unitname="2/1-37 Aufkl" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 222/5" unitname="3/1-37 Aufkl" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0"></unit>
<unit unitid="MG42 HMG Team 43" unitname="1/2-6 HMG" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0;D=0.25"></unit>
<unit unitid="Opel Blitz" unitname="1a/2-6 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="50mm GW36 Mortar" unitname="1/2-6 Light Mortar" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0.;D=0.1"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 251" unitname="1b/2-6 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pioneer 43" unitname="2/1-58 Pioneer" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.1;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Opel Blitz" unitname="2a/1-58 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="StuG IIIF" unitname="1/2-6 Assault Gun" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IVG" unitname="2/1/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="5" max="5" probability="A=0.1;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Grenadier 43" unitname="2/1/2-6 PzGren" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0;D=0.25"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pak 38" unitname="1/1-42 Anti-Tank Platoon" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0;D=0.1"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pak 40" unitname="2/1-42 Anti-Tank Platoon" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0;D=0.1"></unit>
</coreunits>

Notice that this has the plain 251 listed. The 251D is the same points and I believe would be correct for this time period. Some of the units above only have one version and in that case skin mods would have to be used until we incorporate a standard late war version and name, and put it in an official update.
What I don't want to do is replace something like the PZIIF with a PZIIL and find out that it didn't exist in 6/43.

Comments?

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Post #: 1

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 7:08:22 AM

Jacko

Posts: 396
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From: The Netherlands
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I'm not sure what you mean, Junk. Please explain a bit more.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 2

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 1:18:05 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12667
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

I've looked at the situation a bit more and decided that it's too much work for me at this time.

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Post #: 3

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 3:22:18 PM

spellir74

Posts: 1983
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jacko

I'm not sure what you mean, Junk. Please explain a bit more.�

In war-over-years there are equipment-upgrades in 'waves'. 'PzC:early' had limited models and therefore it couldn't accurately track equipment upgrades. For example the early PzC game only had one German 251 halftrack type--suppose to be a "C" version--in Pz Grau(grey); but over the course of the real war, diff 251s were used.

Now the game has more models. Eg the halftrack 251 "D". Those new models can be used by the "Random Battle/Campaign generators"; also the old scenarios can be edited wherein the old --incorrect models--are swapped out for the new models. Most relevantly after 9/43 a new 251"D" body type was introduced; and after 3/43 PzGelb/Camo was always used replacing grau.

(in reply to Jacko)

Post #: 4

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 6:35:05 PM

spellir74

Posts: 1983
Joined: 6/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I am going to attempt to edit the [random generator and set-campaign] files and would like some suggestions on what to substitute for the current units. For example, this is the 7th Panzer Div early summer 43 core. Starting 6/1/43

<coreunits>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IIIL" unitname="HQ 3/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IIF" unitname="1/3/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="5" max="5"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IIIL" unitname="2/3/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="5" max="5"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Grenadier 43" unitname="1/1/2-6 PzGren" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3"></unit>
<unit unitid="Opel Blitz" unitname="1/1/2-6 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 222/5" unitname="1/1-37 Aufkl" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2"></unit>
<unit unitid="81mm Mortar" unitname="1/2-6 81mm Mortar" exp="Veteran" number="6" max="6" probability="A=0.17;D=0.33"></unit>
<unit unitid="105mm Artillery" unitname="105mm Artillery" exp="Veteran" number="4" max="4" probability="A=0.17;D=0.33"></unit>
<unit unitid="150mm Artillery" unitname="150mm Artillery" exp="Veteran" number="4" max="4" probability="A=0.08;D=0.17"></unit>
<unit unitid="JU-87 Stuka" unitname="JU-87 Stuka" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.1;D=0.1"></unit>
<unit unitid="FlaK 36" unitname="88mm FlaK" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.1;D=0.2"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 222/5" unitname="2/1-37 Aufkl" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 222/5" unitname="3/1-37 Aufkl" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0"></unit>
<unit unitid="MG42 HMG Team 43" unitname="1/2-6 HMG" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0;D=0.25"></unit>
<unit unitid="Opel Blitz" unitname="1a/2-6 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="50mm GW36 Mortar" unitname="1/2-6 Light Mortar" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0.;D=0.1"></unit>
<unit unitid="Sd Kfz 251" unitname="1b/2-6 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pioneer 43" unitname="2/1-58 Pioneer" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.1;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Opel Blitz" unitname="2a/1-58 Transport" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="StuG IIIF" unitname="1/2-6 Assault Gun" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0.05;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Kpfw IVG" unitname="2/1/2-25 Panzer" exp="Veteran" number="5" max="5" probability="A=0.1;D=0.05"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pz Grenadier 43" unitname="2/1/2-6 PzGren" exp="Veteran" number="3" max="3" probability="A=0;D=0.25"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pak 38" unitname="1/1-42 Anti-Tank Platoon" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0;D=0.1"></unit>
<unit unitid="Pak 40" unitname="2/1-42 Anti-Tank Platoon" exp="Veteran" number="2" max="2" probability="A=0;D=0.1"></unit>
</coreunits>

What I don't want to do is replace something like the PZIIF with a PZIIL and find out that it didn't exist in 6/43.

The PZ II F chassis would have been used for other things by 43 (marders and wespe). Ie there were no PzII C-F in 43.

Re PzII L...
All the stddv curvings in and out have already been done by me in the unit's XML.

PzII L introduced Fall/43 --but only in recon units/sporadically. Ie PzIIs no longer in Pz Kompanies themselves; diff tactics by then. So have no PzII in summer43. Maybe later have PzII L come in but NOT as "Pz unit" but "Aufkl."

----
The off map arty for _PANZER_ divs should be SPs(hummel and wespe) by summer 43 (but only for Panzer Divs).

Hummel 150mm Introduced in late 42. So by mid 43 make the file call the Hummel.

Wespe 105mm produced in 2/43. So by mid to late 43 make the list call the Wespe.

Call them:
"150mm SP Artillery" or 150mm Hummel Artillery
"105mm SP Artillery" or 105mm Wespe Artillery

----
Regarding the 251s...

3/43 starts camo 251s. All 251 should be camo then.

_Fall '43_ starts 251-Ds.

In autumn 43 when the 251Ds slope in, some 251C camos still remain though, curving out. (The stddv (and medprev) in the units XML handles the curvings and slopings.)

(And the early war should be the 251B. (By spring 42 251 C were everywhere.

--
And also the recon 221 should show up early till winter 42.

And late war should have heavy recons.)

The entry info is in the XML file itself.

The dates are in the unit XML files --look there.

===========
Also do some spring/summer 43 stock scenarios to 251 c camo. Go into the scenario file itself with notepad --not scenario editor-- and swap out the 251 with "[251 C late]". (I don't recall exactly what the 251 camo/late is called --go into the 251 camo/late XMLs and see what they are called.)

And also do one of the last scenarios making it use the 251 D.

Also make an early war one use the 251 B model.

In some stock scenarios, one could swap in _one_ gunned versions for PzGren HQ and some pioneer versions for pioneers.

==========

How many lists exist? RGB/C? Set Campaign ones?

Which random list-files have to be edited?

I don't want to look in the data folder --not my project.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 5

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 6:52:06 PM

JMass

Posts: 2141
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74
The PZ II F chassis would have been used for other things by 43 (marders and wespe). Ie there were no PzII C-F in 43.

There was still some: "On July 1 of 1943, on the eve of Operation Zitadelle, there were 107 Panzerkampfwagen II tanks in service" http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-ii.htm#panzer2

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Now playing, testing or modding: ATS, Ancient Warfare, CTGW, FoG, LnL HoS, PFE, Squad Battles, WWII-Europe
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(in reply to spellir74)

Post #: 6

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 7:37:28 PM

spellir74

Posts: 1983
Joined: 6/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JMass

quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74
The PZ II F chassis would have been used for other things by 43 (marders and wespe). Ie there were no PzII C-F in 43.

There was still some: "On July 1 of 1943, on the eve of Operation Zitadelle, there were 107 Panzerkampfwagen II tanks in service" http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-ii.htm#panzer2

darn.

Hitler wanted all of them to be wespe.

(in reply to JMass)

Post #: 7

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 7:42:15 PM

spellir74

Posts: 1983
Joined: 6/15/2008
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Leave the PzII F in the list. Make the PzII F XML handle the curve out in the stddv, if it doesn't it already.

NOT MY PROJECT.

(in reply to JMass)

Post #: 8

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 7:43:11 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12667
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74

How many lists exist? RGB/C? Set Campaign ones?

Which random list-files have to be edited?

I don't want to look in the data folder --not my project.

Therein lies the problem. All I wanted to do was have gray in early war and camo in late war. It is not that cut and dry. First the different versions of the same model need to exist in xml. Then the xml has to point to a version with camo and without. The start and end dates and prevalence need to be checked so that the correct colour is selected for randoms. I don't even know what will happen in a long campaign that crosses the change date.
Only then can the existing scenarios and all the files for randoms can be edited.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to spellir74)

Post #: 9

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 8:11:54 PM

spellir74

Posts: 1983
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Therein lies the problem. All I wanted to do was have gray in early war and camo in late war. It is not that cut and dry.

1First the different versions of the same model need to exist in xml.

2Then the xml has to point to a version with camo and without.

3The start and end dates and prevalence need to be checked so that the correct colour is selected for randoms.

4I don't even know what will happen in a long campaign that crosses the change date.

5Only then can the existing scenarios and all the files for randoms can be edited.

1 Different skin versions of halftracks do exist as unit XML. In the armoured unit folder. (Also the SP arti exist there.)

That PzII skin issue should just be ignored --just accept what is there. (Same with the 222s.)

2 By "XML" you mean that generator-list above? It will point to the version with camo ["251 C late"?] when it is written in in place of the one that is there ["251"]. (Just like it will with the SP Arti added to the list.)

3 The dates, med prev and stddv were good enough when I made them. But yeah they need to be double checked.

4 ???

5 Scenarios can be changed regardless of what happens to the generator lists. ??

-----
This project can be done by anyone.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 10

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/12/2011 8:38:45 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12667
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74

quote:

Therein lies the problem. All I wanted to do was have gray in early war and camo in late war. It is not that cut and dry.

1First the different versions of the same model need to exist in xml.

2Then the xml has to point to a version with camo and without.

3The start and end dates and prevalence need to be checked so that the correct colour is selected for randoms.

4I don't even know what will happen in a long campaign that crosses the change date.

5Only then can the existing scenarios and all the files for randoms can be edited.

1 Different skin versions of halftracks do exist as unit XML. In the armoured unit folder. (Also the SP arti exist there.)

What about everything else? See below, why do halftracks and ignore other things?

That PzII skin issue should just be ignored --just accept what is there. (Same with the 222s.)

2 By "XML" you mean that generator-list above? It will point to the version with camo ["251 C late"?] when it is written in in place of the one that is there ["251"]. (Just like it will with the SP Arti added to the list.)

3 The dates, med prev and stddv were good enough when I made them. But yeah they need to be double checked.

4 ???

5 Scenarios can be changed regardless of what happens to the generator lists. ??

-----
This project can be done by anyone.

Yes it can.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to spellir74)

Post #: 11

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/13/2011 4:47:26 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12667
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

I modded the 7th Pz Div files 43 and 44.
Early Spring 43 thru Late Summer - 251_C late
Fall 43 thru Winter 44 - 251D
Spring 44 thru Winter 44 - replaced 222/5 aufkl with PzIIL and Tiger I with Tiger I Late
(Also fixed Winter 44 which had PzIIIL from previous file and replaced with PzIVG from later files)

Untested files in JSGME format attached

And then deleted. See below.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 11/15/2011 2:26:08 AM >

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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Post #: 12

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/15/2011 2:23:56 AM

junk2drive

Posts: 12667
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

Apologies to those who downloaded. I got bit by the outer name inner name spider. I used the xml name in the mod instead of the model name inside the xml. This effected the 251C and D and the Tiger.

Corrected files soon.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 11/15/2011 2:41:24 AM >

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 13

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/16/2011 4:27:56 AM

spellir74

Posts: 1983
Joined: 6/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Apologies to those who downloaded. I got bit by the outer name inner name spider. I used the xml name in the mod instead of the model name inside the xml. This effected the 251C and D and the Tiger.

Corrected files soon.

The mod pack "camo-skins-for-late-war-random-generation" is HERE:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2953105

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 14

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/16/2011 8:24:52 PM

Richie61

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Knocked out during Kursk

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Post #: 15

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/25/2011 5:22:00 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12667
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

I somehow missed the Spring 43 file in my mod that spellir used for this.

We are working on changing all the battles files to have grau units in early war and camo units in late war.

A grau Opel Blitz truck is coming soon.

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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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Post #: 16

RE: Late War German Camo units - 11/25/2011 8:11:55 PM

Jacko

Posts: 396
Joined: 6/21/2002
From: The Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I somehow missed the Spring 43 file in my mod that spellir used for this.

We are working on changing all the battles files to have grau units in early war and camo units in late war.

A grau Opel Blitz truck is coming soon.

Excellent.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 17