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The good and bad of Linked Campaigns

 
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The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/5/2011 9:57:35 PM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline 		After about half way through the Fallschirmjager campaign I have the following observations....

The good...it's more "playable" than many of the Dynamic Campaigns. Reinforcements are adequate for the most part. And for some strange reason German artillery vs tanks seems to be slightly more effective. That's the good part of Linked Games.

The bad part is they aren't as enjoyable (for me) because there is no "feel" of actually doing a good job of killing the enemy. In other words, no "attaboy" in the form of a comment from a General or medals or promotions. I know it's not like a Dynamic Campaign were you are the actual leader of the forces. But how come my officers and men can't earn awards? That would do wonders for morale (especially the human player). You do earn victory points for winning a scenario. But to what purpose? Might as well not award any points at all.

< Message edited by Deputy -- 11/5/2011 9:58:00 PM >

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RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/5/2011 10:28:33 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 4101
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		The biggest reward is being able to continue the campaign.

If you lose, you may very well be kicked out with a nasty note at the end.

The Sealion LCG is a good example of that. Many different paths to play where the scenarios are different, but if you fail twice in a row, you're done with the LCG with a failure and note at the end.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 2
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/5/2011 10:56:11 PM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

The biggest reward is being able to continue the campaign.

If you lose, you may very well be kicked out with a nasty note at the end.

The Sealion LCG is a good example of that. Many different paths to play where the scenarios are different, but if you fail twice in a row, you're done with the LCG with a failure and note at the end.

Jason Petho



That's not much of a reward when you come right down to it. So as commander I have to tell the troops your reward for doing a good job is to go out and continue to do a good job? Glad the person that designed this game doesn't command REAL troops. And he sure can't be very good at running a business. Imagine your boss telling you no promotion or pay raise or recognition for doing a good job, just get back to work and continue to do so. I sure wouldn't keep working for a boss like that. And how is "lose" even defined? There is no info on the minimum score required to continue on for each scenario. Cripes...it seems like every time this game gets close to being really good, someone shoots themselves in the foot and screws it up. After hearing this I have zero motivation to even continue the Linked Campaign.

< Message edited by Deputy -- 11/5/2011 10:57:10 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/5/2011 11:12:14 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 4101
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		You're familiar with the Victory Point system in the game? You require a certain number of Victory Points to achieve and Major Loss, Minor Loss, Draw, Minor Victory or Major Victory. This means you have potentially 5 different paths that you can follow in a Linked Campaign Game depending on your level of success or failure.

The Linked Campaign Game follows a story. If the commander screws up, the story ends. The Dynamic Campaign has no story, it's a series of random, easy scenarios where HAL can be herded quite simply due to the limitations of the game engine. At least the Linked Campaigns provide a challenge.

I still think you should try the game against a human opponent. That is where the game truly shines.

Jason Petho




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Post #: 4
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/6/2011 1:21:30 AM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

You're familiar with the Victory Point system in the game? You require a certain number of Victory Points to achieve and Major Loss, Minor Loss, Draw, Minor Victory or Major Victory. This means you have potentially 5 different paths that you can follow in a Linked Campaign Game depending on your level of success or failure.

The Linked Campaign Game follows a story. If the commander screws up, the story ends. The Dynamic Campaign has no story, it's a series of random, easy scenarios where HAL can be herded quite simply due to the limitations of the game engine. At least the Linked Campaigns provide a challenge.

I still think you should try the game against a human opponent. That is where the game truly shines.

Jason Petho





So far all major victories for me.

I understand the story line with Linked Campaigns. But I still would like to see SOME kind of recognition for a major victory besides having to face ANOTHER battle. Troops and commanders DID receive medals and decorations for doing a good job. Why should the troops in the Linked Campaign not get this recognition?

I'll pass on human opponents. Just not my cup of tea.

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Post #: 5
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/6/2011 3:18:38 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 4101
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From: Calgary, AB, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deputy
So far all major victories for me.


Good, good. Well done!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deputy

I understand the story line with Linked Campaigns. But I still would like to see SOME kind of recognition for a major victory besides having to face ANOTHER battle. Troops and commanders DID receive medals and decorations for doing a good job. Why should the troops in the Linked Campaign not get this recognition?


Alright, I'll rewrite some of the introductions for the linked campaign scenarios with a "Congratulations on a job well done!".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deputy
I'll pass on human opponents. Just not my cup of tea.


What is your reasoning? Out of curiousity sake.

Jason Petho

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Petho Cartography

Mapping Military History

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Post #: 6
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/6/2011 5:54:22 AM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline 		I bought the game to play against the AI. This was back when it was version 1.0 from Talonsoft. I have been with the game since it first came out. And I really enjoyed the game, even with it's weird quirks. I don't play any games vs humans. I tried it and I guess I am just not a "social player". The last game I played vs humans was IL-2 Sturmovik. I just don't get the enjoyment of playing against a human. Just me I suppose.

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Post #: 7
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/7/2011 11:37:04 PM   
lparkh


Posts: 263
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		Regarding "not much of a reward" above. Fair enough. On the other hand if you read Band of Brothers the reward for a good performance by the 101st was to be assigned the next tough (or even tougher) mission and to stay in the line "undeservedly" long. The higher up's don't care about you and your men but about their strategic success via you and your men :-)

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Post #: 8
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 12:18:25 AM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Regarding "not much of a reward" above. Fair enough. On the other hand if you read Band of Brothers the reward for a good performance by the 101st was to be assigned the next tough (or even tougher) mission and to stay in the line "undeservedly" long. The higher up's don't care about you and your men but about their strategic success via you and your men :-)


Want to look at the list of awards and decorations the men of the 101st has won since it's inception? It's a long list.

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Post #: 9
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 3:09:54 PM   
mwest


Posts: 394
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deputy

I bought the game to play against the AI. This was back when it was version 1.0 from Talonsoft. I have been with the game since it first came out. And I really enjoyed the game, even with it's weird quirks. I don't play any games vs humans. I tried it and I guess I am just not a "social player". The last game I played vs humans was IL-2 Sturmovik. I just don't get the enjoyment of playing against a human. Just me I suppose.


It is really a shame you don't want to give "human" JTCS PBeM a chance?

Of course, players are free to "play" CS as they wish... exclusively against Hal like you do... mixing it up some with both Hal and human opponent play... or exclusively against human opponents (like I do)

Again, IMO CS players should (at least) try all "flavors" of JTCS... and see which ones sit best with them?

< Message edited by mwest -- 11/8/2011 6:05:21 PM >

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(in reply to Deputy)
Post #: 10
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 3:30:32 PM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline 		As I stated before...I bought the game to play against the computer. It's my choice. I don't rag on people who play human vs human. That is THEIR choice. Talking about human-vs human play is veering off topic. The topic is the good and bad of Linked Campaigns. Not the good and bad of computer vs human play. Please try to stay on topic and if you want to discuss human vs human play, feel free to start your own topic.

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Battles in Italy
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Post #: 11
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 4:00:35 PM   
mwest


Posts: 394
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deputy

Talking about human-vs human play is veering off topic. The topic is the good and bad of Linked Campaigns. Not the good and bad of computer vs human play. Please try to stay on topic and if you want to discuss human vs human play, feel free to start your own topic.


Agree. I will (and have) stayed on topic.





< Message edited by mwest -- 11/8/2011 6:09:04 PM >

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Regards, - MW

The Blitz - Wargaming at its Best!

http://www.theblitz.org/

(in reply to Deputy)
Post #: 12
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 5:00:22 PM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mwest


We don't need "forum police" here? Actually, it was Jason who first asked about your "aversion" to human play - not me? I was making a comment on that conversation point?

IMO, and other players too?, the AI is the weakest and most underdeveloped element of the CS game engine. HAL's "lack of robustness" directly impacts the entire player experience when playing solo - whether it is linked campaigns, dynamic campaigns, or generating a random battle? HAL's inefficiencies are either marginalized or completely avoided when playing human opponents? The AI's capabilities are relevant to this discussion thread since it deals with solo play versus the computer?




Perhaps we do need some form police. It's my topic and I'd like to keep all posts related to it. If you have a personal agenda about human vs human play, as I said, start your own thread about it. And my comment about staying on topic wasn't directed at you. But if the shoe fits, wear it. Your opinons about the AI are strictly YOUR opinions. And while you have a right to say them, might I remind you what opinions are like? My thread was NOT about solo play or play against the AI. The TOPIC is The good and bad of linked games. I didn't mention the AI AT ALL in my first post of what I thought about linked games. I didn't mention the AI until Jason asked why I didn't like playing against humans. Now if you have something constructive to comment about concerneing awards and decorations in the Linked games, please do. Otherwise, start your own thread.

< Message edited by Deputy -- 11/8/2011 5:01:43 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 5:39:51 PM   
mwest


Posts: 394
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline 		OP - You mention several items (in addition to rewards and decorations) about linked campaigns... including playability, reinforcement schedules, the effectiveness of German artillery versus tanks, etc?

All of the above are functions of the game engine? How "well" or how "poorly" the AI performs directly impacts players' solo campaigns? So, the conversation includes the game engine, different game rules (e.g. artillery versus armor), linked campaign elements (e.g. reinforcements, rewards & decorations)?

I made a posting reply on the CS AI... a relevant comment based on both your original post and the subsequent "conversations" that developed in this thread?





< Message edited by mwest -- 11/8/2011 6:07:57 PM >

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Regards, - MW

The Blitz - Wargaming at its Best!

http://www.theblitz.org/

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Post #: 14
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 5:49:52 PM   
Deputy


Posts: 427
Joined: 9/24/2005
From: Silver City, NM USA
Status: offline 		Look...I tried to ask nicely. Now I am going straight to Jason. Thread will be locked or deleted. Congrats on your wonderful disruptions. I'm sure it was appreciated by all who post here.

_____________________________

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CC:COI
Battles in Italy
Battles in Normandy
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Post #: 15
RE: The good and bad of Linked Campaigns - 11/8/2011 6:03:13 PM   
mwest


Posts: 394
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline 		Gents:

Actually, I do agree with the OP that linked campaigns should have some type of "reward system" as an incentive for players progressing through the various battles.

Would add some "spice" to solo play?

OP - Maybe you could suggest to Jason, when he starts work on the 1.05 game patch, to include a linked campaign reward system? Hopefully, not a huge SW coding issue?



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Regards, - MW

The Blitz - Wargaming at its Best!

http://www.theblitz.org/

(in reply to Deputy)
Post #: 16
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