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RE: Where are crews?

 
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RE: Where are crews? - 11/18/2012 2:15:53 PM   
inqistor


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I do not see anything wrong. I have checked version on my PC, and even downloaded one from forum, and all seems to be the same. What do you see in-game? Maybe it is Tracker glitch?

Overall - what begins in PI are all in units. I overloaded some of them to allow planes to be destroyed on ground, and get the weird replacement effect (if unit is overloaded some planes tends to trickle back to pool). There are no new Allied air units, and only few Chinese planes arrive with convoy. Everything is made using replacement dates, and values.

To make it easy - check if there are 18 BOLOs in pool, and if your P-36 replacement rate is 145. The only thing I can think of is that you had Scenario numbered 31 earlier, and somehow planes file was not overwritten...

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Post #: 31
RE: Where are crews? - 11/18/2012 2:53:51 PM   
Yaab


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Thanks! Looked again and it fits. I have 145 replacement Mohawks. As for B-10s, I misread number "10" for "1", but there are 10 new B-10s that start damaged. As for the Chinese aircraft convoy, what is its ETA?

PS. Is there a way to properly name the Hurricane unit in Colombo? Right now it is just "Unit 3310"...

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Post #: 32
RE: Where are crews? - 11/18/2012 3:28:36 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Thanks! Looked again and it fits. I have 145 replacement Mohawks. As for B-10s, I misread number "10" for "1", but there are 10 new B-10s that start damaged. As for the Chinese aircraft convoy, what is its ETA?

They shows in one of the first convoys. There is some display glitch, and there are no plane name (only number), when convoy is in queue, but you can definitely see the planes, when it is on the map. I have no idea how to fix it.

quote:

PS. Is there a way to properly name the Hurricane unit in Colombo? Right now it is just "Unit 3310"...

Oh yeah, my bad. There are actally two new units in Ceylon
Probably, but I have absolutely NO data about those units, apart of number of Hurricanes in them. There is the same problem with Japanese Ka-1 units, but in this case I do not even have their proper sizes, only area of operation

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Post #: 33
RE: Where are crews? - 11/18/2012 5:23:43 PM   
Yaab


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OK, noticed something about the Jap attack on PH in the mod:
" 27 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 45cm T91.2 Torpedo, 2 x Additional Ordnance"
What is additional ordnance? Another torpedo maybe? Japan just sank five US BBs at Pearl...

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Post #: 34
RE: Where are crews? - 11/18/2012 6:31:14 PM   
inqistor


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5 BBs is very good result. I rarely get more, than one.

This version was made pre-beta, so I used the trick, to simulate additional bombs. If you see "Additional Ordnance" it is actually device with only zeros, it should not hit anything, or made any damage. But, when aircraft will use different mission, the "Additional Ordnance" will be exchanged for additional bombs. In case of KATEs they carry additional 2x60 kg bombs (because against PH they carried 1x250+6x60 - it gives same payload, but I could not get rid of second 250 from torpedo exchange).

In comparison to stock you should get worse results against ships in PH (because torpedo is weaker), but better result against airfield (because there are more bombs used).
Also, some BBs have Float Planes disembarked. Those groups are at base, and you have to load them manually.

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Post #: 35
RE: Where are crews? - 11/18/2012 8:21:58 PM   
Yaab


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Got it.

"27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb"

Also saw some Lilys carrying 8 x 50 kg against Singapore airfield. Nice.

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Post #: 36
RE: Where are crews? - 11/24/2012 8:08:58 AM   
inqistor


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I have a wild theory (which I am not going to test), that to calculate ground AA fire strength, game just divides penetration, and effect of devices by 10. When you compare those values to aircraft guns, you will discover that suddenly ground guns seems to be at least category lower, that their aircraft calibers, and it gets even worse, for larger guns.
For example 20mm Oerlikon have 15 effect, and 20 penetration (that gives 1.5, and 2), while 20mm aircraft gun have 4 effect, and 3 penetration.

To check what will happen, I changed ALL alternate values for AA, and DP guns to be TWICE their original. It is pretty easy with magic lines. Although I have no idea what first value is used for. Just copy it into alternate columns:
=IF(OR(C2=12;C2=17);T2;0)
=IF(OR(C2=12;C2=17);2*F2;0)
=IF(OR(C2=12;C2=17);2*G2;0)
=IF(OR(C2=12;C2=17);H2;0)

In theory it should be massacre (double damage!), in practice effect is barely visible in combat report, but you surely see greater loses in summary screen. But not that much greater.
I have also another wild theory, that accuracy is just value to compare with plane maneuver rating, so anything above around 20 is just helping to hit fighters, not makes AA gun any better against bombers. I would have to see what will happen to ZEROs in PH strike, with that change.

In attachment there is modifed devices file (from my Scenario 31), just change extension to dat. It should work with all Scenarios (but beta can cause unexpected consequences), which uses original data.


It also includes historical Japanese bombs (defined from slot 1770). I have used:
TM 9-1985-4/TO 39B-1A-11 "Japanese explosive ordnance", and
O-23 "Japanese Naval Bombs"

Overall, Japanes bombs are close (+- 10%) to original database, but there are few exceptions:
1) Japan only had TWO real AP bombs. 500 kg, and 800 kg (used in PH). There is 250kg model, with small booster (later removed, because bomb shattered), but it had quite large explosive charge (over 20%). So anything called SAP is just GP bomb, with minimally better penetration.
2) Penetration is genarally low
3) 800 kg bombs are pretty common (but not that AP type used at PH)
4) Navy had not used any 100 kg bombs (and that creates several problems for Navy planes)
5) I have not included several types of 250kg anti-airstrip bombs, as the only different value, I could think of, was better accuracy, and I am not even sure it is used in ground attacks

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 37
RE: Where are crews? - 12/15/2012 7:52:25 AM   
inqistor


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Some more tests:

Doubling Penetration, and Tripling effect increases damages by over 50% (but still less, than 100%).

Accuracy seems to have some impact, probably decreasing with altitude, but even cutting it by 3/4 still decreases number of hits by only 25%. And it seems to NOT influence strafing fighters at all. Even for accuracy 10 they still seems to be hit with the same frequency, as for 51.

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Post #: 38
Profiled bombloads - 12/22/2012 8:01:20 AM   
inqistor


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So... The World has not ended, so I have to add new version:
Profiled bombloads for Japanese planes. IT WORKS ONLY WITH LATEST BETA, so Scenario is in FIRST post, not second!
I have not used THAT much sources, but in most cases, at least ONE bombload is historical. You will love all those 800 kg bombs (not, that they are AP type, generally Japanese bombs have now poor penetration)
Allied squads are bigger, and have different arrival dates.
I have also done the same thing to engines, which I made previously for Japanese planes. Including R&D factories already on map, engines are pushed in availability date:
name, number of research factories, months added to availability date
Aichi Ha-60 125 40+80+5 (yes, there are 3 factories, and they research 65 points per month) +6
Kawasaki Ha-60 20 +3
Mitsubishi Ha-42 2 +1
Ha-43 10 +4
Nakajima Ha-44 10 +2
Ha-45 30 +6

New Chinese air units begin in India. Planes were flying from there. They were NOT produced, or assembled in China.
Russians get LOTS of old planes. When they are removed from German front, they slowly arrives in replacement pools (seriously, HUNDREDS of I-15, and such)
Awazisan Maru, and Awajisan Maru exchange positions (wrong, smaller ship in initial invasion TF)
Ships in Manila starts game in appropriate locations, and state. Implemented changes (no ship type means SS):
Ships starting in Bataan:
4238 AS Otus
4632 Sturgeon
4884 S-38
4616 Porpoise
4617 Pike
4618 Shark
4619 Tarpon
4621 Pickerel

Ships starting in repair docks:
3677 DD Peary
3678 DD Pilsbury
4494 AM Bittern
4640 Seadragon
4641 Sealion

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Post #: 39
SBD-4 - 1/26/2013 7:37:51 AM   
inqistor


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An interesting fact:
WASP was equipped with Vindicators (although probably not long-range Marine model present in-game) during transition through Panama Canal, and rearmed into SBD-3 only after arriving into San Diego (probably only one group, as first was rearmed at the end of May).


Which led me to rechecking initial productions of both plane models. It may be worth to add some initial Vindicators pool, especially since there were few training groups present (one of them for ESSEX), which could be pushed at front in case of emergency. But more interesting is SBD-3 production. It sems to be exact historical number (although considering few planes in Atlantic, it may be several planes too high), but there is no SBD-4 model in-game. It may be presented as SBD-3, after all there was only change in voltage, but that means, that game is short by 780 SBD-4 (minus Europe tranfers), and since overall production of SBD-5 seems also short by more than 1000 (not that it have any influence on that stage of war), change in factory size seems appropriate.

Considering time of SBD-3 model production, you can safely double factory size (!), and there will be still enough planes left for Europe.

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Post #: 40
RE: SBD-4 - 4/19/2013 7:24:13 AM   
Yaab


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Fired your scenario again, this time with the latest beta patch. It is great to see the bomb loadouts on the aircraft screen! Very interesting choices, especially for the Japanese light bombers.

Are you still developing this mod?

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Post #: 41
RE: SBD-4 - 5/11/2013 7:59:00 AM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Fired your scenario again, this time with the latest beta patch. It is great to see the bomb loadouts on the aircraft screen! Very interesting choices, especially for the Japanese light bombers.

Thanks. Light Bombers have short range, and I could not change total weight of bomb carried, so it was the only way to keep them in-game, instead to be first candidates for upgrade to 2E bombers.

quote:

Are you still developing this mod?

I should probably implement Allied bombloads, but when I think, that there is gazillion models for every Allied plane, I lose motivation

One thing I am planning, is to implement early Allied torpedo (it should have only 2/3 power of current Mark 13, and be even more faulty). With current beta it would be quite easy - simple weapon upgrade. But I have to also reimplement Japanese bombloads. As they were made quickly, and I see, that with larger bombloads it tends to get cramped, when bombs are not in order.

Have you checked if anti-submarine bombs work? It is kinda hard to test, since hit-ratio is so low, that you hardly can get any in early war.

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Post #: 42
RE: SBD-4 - 5/14/2013 10:51:36 AM   
Yaab


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Unfortunately, I didn't have time to check the effectiveness of the anti-submarine bombs.

There is stock, BabesLite, DaBigBabes and AHMOD to play and only this much time. Can't imagine what it will be like when the RHS gets completed...

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Post #: 43
RE: SBD-4 - 5/14/2013 11:54:40 AM   
oldman45


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I have been using airborne depth charges in my mode and after 10 months of play, the squadrons that are using them have had no recorded hits.

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Post #: 44
RE: SBD-4 - 5/14/2013 9:52:40 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to check the effectiveness of the anti-submarine bombs.

There is stock, BabesLite, DaBigBabes and AHMOD to play and only this much time. Can't imagine what it will be like when the RHS gets completed...

There are like 6 Scenarios in RHS, so better reserve yourself at least two months

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I have been using airborne depth charges in my mode and after 10 months of play, the squadrons that are using them have had no recorded hits.

I was not THAT radical (besides I suspected that ship weapons do not work on planes. I checked this with rockets). My ASW bombs, are simple GP, but I added range for them. I was wondering if this check for submarine depth, and will be more effective than normal bombs.

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Post #: 45
Cargo capacities - 5/20/2013 7:45:42 PM   
Yaab


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I reckon you put a lot of calculations to reduce cargo capacities in your mod, but is there any chance you could further round down or round up the capacities for xAKs/xAPs for aesthetic and logistics reasons? It is more pleasant to the eye and mind to have 1440 or 2390 xAKs than 1441 or 2388 ones. I sometimes mix up the capacity column with actual cargo column especially if a ship is loaded at less than 100% capacity i.e 1441 capacity ship with 1323 supplies loaded. Most of the roundings would mean subtracting/adding 1-3 points of capacity.

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Post #: 46
RE: Cargo capacities - 5/24/2013 8:30:52 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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+1 That is what I have done in my Babes variant and I can confirm that it makes things much easier for tired minds and eyes!

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Post #: 47
RE: Cargo capacities - 5/25/2013 8:07:13 AM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I reckon you put a lot of calculations to reduce cargo capacities in your mod

Not really
I had only to test initial amount. Making changes was like writing ONE magic line, so took around 3 minutes

quote:

but is there any chance you could further round down or round up the capacities for xAKs/xAPs for aesthetic and logistics reasons? It is more pleasant to the eye and mind to have 1440 or 2390 xAKs than 1441 or 2388 ones. I sometimes mix up the capacity column with actual cargo column especially if a ship is loaded at less than 100% capacity i.e 1441 capacity ship with 1323 supplies loaded. Most of the roundings would mean subtracting/adding 1-3 points of capacity.

Gee, you have strange problems. You know, that I have cut EVRY SINGLE POINT, to lower it to minimum? Think of the consequences! 3 extra points, and with 100 ship trips it would amount to 300 extra tonnes! (not that in-game it was not actually rounded)

The magic line is:
=IF(AND(T2>150,MOD(T2,10)>0),T2+10-MOD(T2,10),T2)
where first 150 is minimal capacity not rounded up (you do not want any extra SST capacity, do you?). The line rounds only up, because downward can cause some initial units to not fit initial invasion fleets.

And here is also changed wpc file, just exchange it for old one (if I guessed correctly that "c" is CLASS)

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 48
RE: Cargo capacities - 5/26/2013 2:52:06 PM   
Yaab


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Is this file working? I downloaded it and replaced the old one, but the cargo capacity values seem unrounded upwards.

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Post #: 49
Smoothing Cargo capacities - 5/26/2013 7:14:19 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Is this file working? I downloaded it and replaced the old one, but the cargo capacity values seem unrounded upwards.

That is why I added "Magic Line", kinda in-emergency-do-it-yourself.

It seems, that during extraction something went wrong. This one should work, I have checked it two times:

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 50
RE: Smoothing Cargo capacities - 5/26/2013 8:26:53 PM   
Yaab


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Beautiful! The file works, capacities are rounded. Many thanks!

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Post #: 51
Light bombers on City Attack - 5/27/2013 7:37:29 AM   
Yaab


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I was curious how your bombloads would affect light bombers on city attacks.
I am posting two combat reports.

City targeted: Wuchow
Detection: 1/1
Weather: Clear
Fort level at Wuchow: 1
Opposition: none (no AA fire)
Industry targeted: Light Industry

Bombers: 24 Sonias and 27 Idas from Canton
Average exp: 65
Average ground bombing skill: 65


Test 1.
Japanese aircraft
Ki-36 Ida x 27
Ki-51 Sonia x 24

Light Industry hits 19

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 6000 feet
City Attack: 4 x 50 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-36 Ida bombing from 6000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 15 kg GP Bomb

LI destroyed:
After-attack tooltip info: 44 (17)
Real losses on Allied side: 41 (19)

TEST 2:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Japanese aircraft
Ki-36 Ida x 27
Ki-51 Sonia x 24

Light Industry hits 28

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 6000 feet
City Attack: 4 x 50 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-36 Ida bombing from 6000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 15 kg GP Bomb

LI destroyed:
Post-attack tooltip info: 43 (18)
Real losses on Allied side: 26 (34)

* Number in parenthesis is for destroyed LI.

Obvioulsy, more tests need to be done, but maybe light bombers on city attack should have another bombload with fewer bombs which are heavier? It could be called strategic bombload or something. Perhaps 100 kg GP bomb for Sonias and 2 x 60 kg for Idas?

Right now, the small bombs used mainly against soft targets, are just too effective against industry. I feel I could halt land inavsion of China altogether and just bomb the Chinese into the stone age.

As per manual, page 252, quote: "Level bombers flying an offensive Mission expend supplies equal to their Maximum Load divided by 1000 per Mission", my supply usage for this mission was 25 supply points (Sonias and Idas' bombloads are 500, divided by 1000 = 0.5 supply point per plane).Let's assume that after 30 tests the average number of LI destroyed is 18.By expending 25 supply points I inflict losses on the Chinese inudustry worth of 18,000 supply points, which can only be repiaired provided the Chinese can gather 10,000 supplies at Wuchow.

Thus, the air war in China beats the land war in China by a wide margin. LCUs will only be needed to grab those bases with level 2 airfields needed for flying light bombers with full bombloads.

Bomb sizes should matter when bombing industry, but with the above tests I am beginning to doubt it.
Some info on the matter here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3332938&mpage=1�



< Message edited by Yaab -- 5/27/2013 8:27:32 AM >

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Post #: 52
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 5/27/2013 8:58:32 AM   
Yaab


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Another test, with tottaly different results

City targeted: Changsha
Fort level:4
Terrain: Urban Light (x2 defensive bonus)
Opposition: 13 AA guns that can shoot at 6000 feet
Detection: 3/3
Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 12
Ki-51 Sonia x 12

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
City Attack: 8 x 50 kg GP Bomb
12 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 6000 feet
City Attack: 4 x 50 kg GP Bomb

No hits recorded, no industry damaged, those 13 AA guns were shooting constantly.

Guess fort level, terrain type, number of aircraft and those pesky AA guns make all the difference. Higher detection didn't help the Japs.

Guess you can still wage unlimited airwar in China,with some cities suffering more than others.

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Post #: 53
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 5/28/2013 9:14:38 AM   
Yaab


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More food for thought...

This time the attack altitude is 1000 feet, bombloads are reduced.

City targeted: Wuchow
Detection: 1/1
Weather: Clear
Fort level at Wuchow: 1
Opposition: none (no AA fire)
Industry targeted: Light Industry

Bombers: 24 Sonias and 27 Idas from Canton
Average exp: 65
Average ground bombing skill: 65

Japanese aircraft
Ki-36 Ida x 27
Ki-51 Sonia x 24

Light Industry hits 21

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 1000 feet
City Attack: 2 x 50 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-36 Ida bombing from 1000 feet
City Attack: 5 x 15 kg GP Bomb

Post-attack tooltip info: 34(27)
Real losses on Allied side: 30 (30)

(Number in parenthesis denotes damaged LI)

Killing light industry with light bombers carrying light bombs.

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Post #: 54
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 5/30/2013 9:17:37 PM   
inqistor


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Heh, I was also pretty sure, that bomb size is most important in city attacks

Have you tried other types of industry as target? I am wondering what will happen, if you add armor for Device Industry slots (not, that armor seems to help tanks against air attacks).


Anyway, I think there is bit for city attack bombload, so changing it would be easy.

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Post #: 55
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 5/31/2013 7:57:10 AM   
Yaab


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I specifically targeted LI because it represents the bottleneck in supply production in China. China produces surplus of resources for its LI/HI. LI factories are located closer to frontlines while HI factories sit safely in Chunking, Chengtu and Kunming, so they out of reach of the Japanese light bombers. Thus, I bombed LI.

The small bombs (15,30, 50 and 60 kg ones) had a disastrous effect on Light Industry in my tests. Thank God fighters cannot fly City Attack missions - more Nates and the Oscars with 15kg bombs would spell doom for the Chinese.

It seems that industry factories are shielded from bombs by terrain and forts as witnessed in the Changsha test. Unfortunately, you can probably wipe out the whole industry in Wuchow and Liuchow before the Chinese can construct another level of forts there. Plus, bomb airfields there with Nates and fort construction will cease. No wonder Allied players ask for a strategic bombing HR in China when they play PBEMs.


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Post #: 56
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 5/31/2013 6:29:41 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

The small bombs (15,30, 50 and 60 kg ones) had a disastrous effect on Light Industry in my tests. Thank God fighters cannot fly City Attack missions - more Nates and the Oscars with 15kg bombs would spell doom for the Chinese.

This is more general problem with Industry attacks. BETTY even in original Scenarios carries 6 bombs on ground attacks, and although Light Bombers can use smaller airfields, neither range, or extra supply used would make much difference.

quote:

It seems that industry factories are shielded from bombs by terrain and forts as witnessed in the Changsha test. Unfortunately, you can probably wipe out the whole industry in Wuchow and Liuchow before the Chinese can construct another level of forts there. Plus, bomb airfields there with Nates and fort construction will cease.

Initial fort numbers can be increased. The war in China is already raging for years.
I am more concerned about Japan, when if player leaves base without AA defense - half of industry will be wiped in one attack.

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Post #: 57
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 6/3/2013 7:34:31 AM   
Yaab


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Another test, this time with 15kg bombs only:

Target: Wuchow, clear terrain, forts 1, no opposition
Target: light industry
Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-36 Ida x 27

Light Industry hits 12

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x Ki-36 Ida bombing from 6000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 15 kg GP Bomb

Post-attack tooltip info: 56 (4)
Real losses on Allied side: 53 (7)

Damaged LI in parenthesis.

Now, can you imagine B-29 loaded with 15kg bombs?


< Message edited by Yaab -- 6/3/2013 8:00:30 AM >

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Post #: 58
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 6/3/2013 8:26:38 AM   
Yaab


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From: Poznan, Poland
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^

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Post #: 59
RE: Light bombers on City Attack - 6/3/2013 7:43:02 PM   
inqistor


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ONEAMINUTE!

This last example actually shows, that there was LESS damage, than reported hits: 12 hits, and only 7 damage (just check your earlier examples - the lowest amount was EQUAL to reported hits, and most of the time it was actually MORE). So that means, that 15kg bomb is actually weaker. The bad news is that 50kg is not

B-29 uses 20 (or more) bombs, and with current algorithm - even adding 100 more, would increase damage well below 5%. That could only matter with very inexperienced crews, or highly maneuverable targets

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Post #: 60
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