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RE: Whats the pt of national moral?

 
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RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 11/10/2011 4:42:31 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I think he suggested some units are not reaching 50 morale.

Fine, but what he 'suggests' and what he 'proves' are often two completely different things. Screenshots, tracking, and saved games are required to prove anything. All else is unsubstantiated.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 61
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 11/10/2011 9:28:42 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5776
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I think he suggested some units are not reaching 50 morale.

Fine, but what he 'suggests' and what he 'proves' are often two completely different things. Screenshots, tracking, and saved games are required to prove anything. All else is unsubstantiated.


Like Jamiam said the nation moral rate of germans is 50.

It does not gravate higher, again talk to JB. The rule is 100% clear. 9.1.1

You got your save its called the rule book.

Its clearly broken as always the Russians gain back moral to national level quickly atleast a pt a turn and most times 3 pts a turn.

The Germans gain back next to nothing. less then 2%

Pelton



< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/10/2011 9:35:31 PM >

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 62
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 11/10/2011 9:38:30 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5776
Joined: 4/9/2006
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In your own words:


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

It's probably this paragraph:

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of
the national morale but not more than the country’s national morale (Example: German national
morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

There is no requirement (refit, non-adjecency, distance to enemy) mentioned for this in 9.1.1


The exact requirements are a mystery. Supposedly, it's a complicated set of checks that have not been made known to the testers. However, my bolded bit should be kept in mind, and that it is representing a maximum gain, for this particular aspect of morale gain, given the best of conditions and lucky die rolls.

quote:

The exact requirements are a mystery. Supposedly, it's a complicated set of checks that have not been made known to the testers. However, my bolded bit should be kept in mind, and that it is representing a maximum gain, for this particular aspect of morale gain, given the best of conditions and lucky die rolls.


Its not a mystery it just plain doesn't work for the Germans as it does for Russian.

It might be by design, but 1v1=2v1 was by design and was a disaster.

National moral as it is designed now is a very poor design.

More love for the Reds and hate for the Germans. The moral gained from sitting should be the same for both sides.
You know its like this, we all do.

You not keeping some big secret from anyone.

German moral recovers at less then 2% and Russian recovers more then a pt and at a much much higher %

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/10/2011 9:41:29 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 63
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 11/10/2011 10:33:01 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6146
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I think he suggested some units are not reaching 50 morale.

Fine, but what he 'suggests' and what he 'proves' are often two completely different things. Screenshots, tracking, and saved games are required to prove anything. All else is unsubstantiated.


Like Jamiam said the nation moral rate of germans is 50.


Uhhh...you misunderstand. I never said that.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 64
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 11/10/2011 10:57:45 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5776
Joined: 4/9/2006
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I thk German national moral is working like .39 fort decay. instead of + 4x its - 4x

It really needs to be looked at its not working right or at all.

Pelton

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 65
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/25/2011 4:03:19 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5776
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Moral is one of the key issues that can effect the out come. For the German theres not much one can do once you start digging in to move it up. As the Russian you can do nothing an it goes up.


quote:

The bottom line is: that the Soviet position is improved over time even by doing nothing (that's true). But the only way the Soviet player gets that is that the Axis does "nothing" as in "nothing of an offensive nature".



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 66
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/28/2011 3:07:37 AM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
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Here's what we know.
The game as released let units (only played Axis with this version) gain morale through combat quickly and fairly unrestricted. Infantry, if used correctly, could relatively quickly go above 86 and there was no exception for Axis minors. Indeed someone posted a pic with a Rumanian division at 99 morale at some point. That was all that was needed to nerf the morale system for the Germans. Even Panzer divs could not regain morale at a decent way and degraded fast, even through hasty's with few losses. I'm very, _very_ happy to see in my new game with 1.05.45 that Panzer divs are now again able to gain morale quickly (still early 1941). Low morale infantry seems to pick up quickly too but it becomes more difficult from (subjectively) 80+. From past comments, I'm assuming it is still so that as war progresses, even Panzer Divs will find it difficult to go above 85+ and infantry will likewise be pushed down with a hard cap (or it will become extreemly unlikely it will improve further through combat).

Anyway, morale is the overall balancing design feature of WitE. I think most of us know this by now, which is a notable difference from the 4 months I've been away. Apart from whether or not is is necessary for this game to have such a balancing mechanism pushing the Germans down no matter how good they are doing, the real annoyance (although less than before with the new patch), for me personally, is does it have to be in this way?
A fact often overlooked is that people play the Germans to have great quality troops. You have less, but you have good to excellent quality. That's the fun of playing the Germans. By hacking into the morale, with all it's important consequences, you take away the very reason why most of us enjoy playing the Germans. So if morale is in fact proficiency, why is proficiency tied to a year regardless of how well the Germans/Russians are doing? Is there no better, more intelligent way to handle this? If the premise of stickiong to a year is what actually happened at that time historically (i.e. an erroding of German combat capability through losses or any other reason for this), wouldn't it be a GREAT feature, selling point, BIG PLUS, for a game like this to actually devise some way to simulate this?

For example, if losses are the undelying reason for lowering proficieny, why not establish loss levels and tie overall morale to this? Let's say (and there are tons of historcial data to make this possible) 1 or 2 or ... million losses had an effect on German profiency. So once a certain level is reached, lower maximum morale. Obviously this needs to be thought out, but a good system like this would certainly stimulate play, on both sides.
An additional feature would to allow for the use of morale, which is now called proficiency, to allow for it in part to be actual morale, the belief in the cause and willingness to die for it. Being succesful in campaigns, attaining the objective had a STRONG influence on the combat performance of the historical soldiers. So capturing Leningrad, Moscow, and so on, SHOULD really COUNT for something other than what it stands for now.

Interestingly, I've read the same people who now ask questions about the German blizzard run-away, defend that same Russian strategy with vigor. I'm not saying I disagree with either, it just strikes me as odd, and more importantly, if some might mistake this for bias towards the Russian side I understand their concerns. It is a matter of perception, not necessarily the truth.

Give this game back to the players to decide who wins, please don't script it. In the end, any mechanism which forces the game down a certain path is the aknowledgement of the desinger thazt he has created something that he doesn't believe will be balanced without artificial intervention. In a way it is admission of defeat... 2by3 games has made great games in the past, I see no reason why WitE should not become one in the future. It's already a very good one, it just needs to get ride of a few things that just don't feel right, play right, or cause a lot of frustration. It's probably going to mean the designers will need to make a leap of faith and DARE to change with the risk of perhaps making a mistake that will create other problems along the way. I'm sure I speak for many that we'll gladly forgive you those potential mistakes, we've already had quite a few patches to come this far, we can have a few more.

Cheers,
Glenn

Ps: I play both sides equally.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 67
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/28/2011 5:26:12 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1972
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Here's what we know.
The game as released let units (only played Axis with this version) gain morale through combat quickly and fairly unrestricted. Infantry, if used correctly, could relatively quickly go above 86 and there was no exception for Axis minors. Indeed someone posted a pic with a Rumanian division at 99 morale at some point. That was all that was needed to nerf the morale system for the Germans. Even Panzer divs could not regain morale at a decent way and degraded fast, even through hasty's with few losses. I'm very, _very_ happy to see in my new game with 1.05.45 that Panzer divs are now again able to gain morale quickly (still early 1941). Low morale infantry seems to pick up quickly too but it becomes more difficult from (subjectively) 80+. From past comments, I'm assuming it is still so that as war progresses, even Panzer Divs will find it difficult to go above 85+ and infantry will likewise be pushed down with a hard cap (or it will become extreemly unlikely it will improve further through combat).

Cheers,
Glenn

Ps: I play both sides equally.


I thought the system was changed because people were complaining that tons of Soviet units, late in the war, were able to get to 99 morale.

The changes in the system are now preventing that ( the mass Soviet force of 99 morale formations ), but again, how many games reach late 1944 or 1945, allowing people to see how much this decreases overall Soviet strength?

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 68
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/28/2011 11:48:49 AM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Here's what we know.
The game as released let units (only played Axis with this version) gain morale through combat quickly and fairly unrestricted. Infantry, if used correctly, could relatively quickly go above 86 and there was no exception for Axis minors. Indeed someone posted a pic with a Rumanian division at 99 morale at some point. That was all that was needed to nerf the morale system for the Germans. Even Panzer divs could not regain morale at a decent way and degraded fast, even through hasty's with few losses. I'm very, _very_ happy to see in my new game with 1.05.45 that Panzer divs are now again able to gain morale quickly (still early 1941). Low morale infantry seems to pick up quickly too but it becomes more difficult from (subjectively) 80+. From past comments, I'm assuming it is still so that as war progresses, even Panzer Divs will find it difficult to go above 85+ and infantry will likewise be pushed down with a hard cap (or it will become extreemly unlikely it will improve further through combat).

Cheers,
Glenn

Ps: I play both sides equally.


I thought the system was changed because people were complaining that tons of Soviet units, late in the war, were able to get to 99 morale.

The changes in the system are now preventing that ( the mass Soviet force of 99 morale formations ), but again, how many games reach late 1944 or 1945, allowing people to see how much this decreases overall Soviet strength?


IF Soviet units get to that level in 1944+, I would call that pretty historical and above all, it would depend on the game, how players play. Isn't that what we all want?

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 69
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/28/2011 8:37:38 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1972
Joined: 9/2/2010
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Wouldn't that mean the current morale rule ( the national morale + 25 ceiling ) nerfs the Soviets as unfairly as the Germans?

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 70
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/28/2011 10:32:36 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Here's what we know.
The game as released let units (only played Axis with this version) gain morale through combat quickly and fairly unrestricted. Infantry, if used correctly, could relatively quickly go above 86 and there was no exception for Axis minors. Indeed someone posted a pic with a Rumanian division at 99 morale at some point. That was all that was needed to nerf the morale system for the Germans. Even Panzer divs could not regain morale at a decent way and degraded fast, even through hasty's with few losses. I'm very, _very_ happy to see in my new game with 1.05.45 that Panzer divs are now again able to gain morale quickly (still early 1941). Low morale infantry seems to pick up quickly too but it becomes more difficult from (subjectively) 80+. From past comments, I'm assuming it is still so that as war progresses, even Panzer Divs will find it difficult to go above 85+ and infantry will likewise be pushed down with a hard cap (or it will become extreemly unlikely it will improve further through combat).

Anyway, morale is the overall balancing design feature of WitE. I think most of us know this by now, which is a notable difference from the 4 months I've been away. Apart from whether or not is is necessary for this game to have such a balancing mechanism pushing the Germans down no matter how good they are doing, the real annoyance (although less than before with the new patch), for me personally, is does it have to be in this way?
A fact often overlooked is that people play the Germans to have great quality troops. You have less, but you have good to excellent quality. That's the fun of playing the Germans. By hacking into the morale, with all it's important consequences, you take away the very reason why most of us enjoy playing the Germans. So if morale is in fact proficiency, why is proficiency tied to a year regardless of how well the Germans/Russians are doing? Is there no better, more intelligent way to handle this? If the premise of stickiong to a year is what actually happened at that time historically (i.e. an erroding of German combat capability through losses or any other reason for this), wouldn't it be a GREAT feature, selling point, BIG PLUS, for a game like this to actually devise some way to simulate this?

For example, if losses are the undelying reason for lowering proficieny, why not establish loss levels and tie overall morale to this? Let's say (and there are tons of historcial data to make this possible) 1 or 2 or ... million losses had an effect on German profiency. So once a certain level is reached, lower maximum morale. Obviously this needs to be thought out, but a good system like this would certainly stimulate play, on both sides.
An additional feature would to allow for the use of morale, which is now called proficiency, to allow for it in part to be actual morale, the belief in the cause and willingness to die for it. Being succesful in campaigns, attaining the objective had a STRONG influence on the combat performance of the historical soldiers. So capturing Leningrad, Moscow, and so on, SHOULD really COUNT for something other than what it stands for now.

Interestingly, I've read the same people who now ask questions about the German blizzard run-away, defend that same Russian strategy with vigor. I'm not saying I disagree with either, it just strikes me as odd, and more importantly, if some might mistake this for bias towards the Russian side I understand their concerns. It is a matter of perception, not necessarily the truth.

Give this game back to the players to decide who wins, please don't script it. In the end, any mechanism which forces the game down a certain path is the aknowledgement of the desinger thazt he has created something that he doesn't believe will be balanced without artificial intervention. In a way it is admission of defeat... 2by3 games has made great games in the past, I see no reason why WitE should not become one in the future. It's already a very good one, it just needs to get ride of a few things that just don't feel right, play right, or cause a lot of frustration. It's probably going to mean the designers will need to make a leap of faith and DARE to change with the risk of perhaps making a mistake that will create other problems along the way. I'm sure I speak for many that we'll gladly forgive you those potential mistakes, we've already had quite a few patches to come this far, we can have a few more.

Cheers,
Glenn

Ps: I play both sides equally.


This post hits the nail on the head

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 71
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 12:57:26 AM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
For example, if losses are the undelying reason for lowering proficieny, why not establish loss levels and tie overall morale to this?


The problem here is that if basal national morale lowers due to losses, there are going to be more losses in the future, and you can ignite a forward feedback loop that makes the game "unbalanceable". No game will be alive in 1945. Every new small tweak in the game (i.e, fort building times) could have devastating consequences. If you combat this eventuality by making the morale losses and gains as a consequence of a battle much more unlikely (to have smoother morale increases and decreases), the Soviets will not have a decent chance to arrive to the German proficiency/basal morale, unless they begin the game much nearer to the Germans in this regard. This would mean to redesign the whole GC41-45 scenario.

Some have said that the National Morale is a balancing mechanism. I’d rather say that it is a buffering mechanism. If you remove that brake, or weaken it by making it event-linked, I am not sure the game becomes more interesting. As many players consider unpalatable the feeling of a scripted decrease in German prowess, I would rather suggest keeping constant the German Basal Morale at 75, and letting the Soviets hit 75 by 1945.

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 72
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 3:36:53 AM   
Marquo


Posts: 1344
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: online
"Like Jamiam said the nation moral rate of germans is 50.

It does not gravate higher, again talk to JB. The rule is 100% clear. 9.1.1

You got your save its called the rule book.

Its clearly broken as always the Russians gain back moral to national level quickly atleast a pt a turn and most times 3 pts a turn.

The Germans gain back next to nothing. less then 2%

Pelton"





So Pelton, how do you explain this quote from your current AAR with M60, "The keys for me during this summer is to keep rolling up manpower pts, push up infantry moral to 70 ( 75% done alrdy) and slowly pick off enemy units 10 to 20 at a time as not to expose myself to any major counter attacks."

Seems like are able to push up 75% of your Axis infantry units to moral of 70? How did you manage that with a broken system?

Marquo



< Message edited by Marquo -- 12/29/2011 3:44:44 AM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 73
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 6:48:13 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2118
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
Ya know, I read the whole section 9.1-9.14.

It must be in invisible ink, or one has to wear feldgrau glasses because I don't see anywhere that it says German NM is 50.

Russian NM, yes. 9.1.3 shows it's 50 from 42 on.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 74
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 9:17:57 AM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1242
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
For example, if losses are the undelying reason for lowering proficieny, why not establish loss levels and tie overall morale to this?


The problem here is that if basal national morale lowers due to losses, there are going to be more losses in the future, and you can ignite a forward feedback loop that makes the game "unbalanceable". No game will be alive in 1945. Every new small tweak in the game (i.e, fort building times) could have devastating consequences. If you combat this eventuality by making the morale losses and gains as a consequence of a battle much more unlikely (to have smoother morale increases and decreases), the Soviets will not have a decent chance to arrive to the German proficiency/basal morale, unless they begin the game much nearer to the Germans in this regard. This would mean to redesign the whole GC41-45 scenario.

Some have said that the National Morale is a balancing mechanism. I’d rather say that it is a buffering mechanism. If you remove that brake, or weaken it by making it event-linked, I am not sure the game becomes more interesting. As many players consider unpalatable the feeling of a scripted decrease in German prowess, I would rather suggest keeping constant the German Basal Morale at 75, and letting the Soviets hit 75 by 1945.



I'm Brian of Nazareth and so is my wife.

I think the big thing about the Soviet recovery in National Morale is that it models the actual effectiveness in the Soviet combat forces as a whole in the period 1941 - 1945. If you base national morale on events such as the loss of Moscow or Leningrad then the game is much more easily won by the player that gets ahead early.

One could argue that the reverse should apply. The loss of major centers causes the Russian peasantry to fight ever more gallantly to defeat the invading fascist menace. One could even argue that that was in fact what happened.


_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 75
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 12:07:51 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
For example, if losses are the undelying reason for lowering proficieny, why not establish loss levels and tie overall morale to this?


The problem here is that if basal national morale lowers due to losses, there are going to be more losses in the future, and you can ignite a forward feedback loop that makes the game "unbalanceable". No game will be alive in 1945. Every new small tweak in the game (i.e, fort building times) could have devastating consequences. If you combat this eventuality by making the morale losses and gains as a consequence of a battle much more unlikely (to have smoother morale increases and decreases), the Soviets will not have a decent chance to arrive to the German proficiency/basal morale, unless they begin the game much nearer to the Germans in this regard. This would mean to redesign the whole GC41-45 scenario.

Some have said that the National Morale is a balancing mechanism. I’d rather say that it is a buffering mechanism. If you remove that brake, or weaken it by making it event-linked, I am not sure the game becomes more interesting. As many players consider unpalatable the feeling of a scripted decrease in German prowess, I would rather suggest keeping constant the German Basal Morale at 75, and letting the Soviets hit 75 by 1945.



I'm Brian of Nazareth and so is my wife.

I think the big thing about the Soviet recovery in National Morale is that it models the actual effectiveness in the Soviet combat forces as a whole in the period 1941 - 1945. If you base national morale on events such as the loss of Moscow or Leningrad then the game is much more easily won by the player that gets ahead early.

One could argue that the reverse should apply. The loss of major centers causes the Russian peasantry to fight ever more gallantly to defeat the invading fascist menace. One could even argue that that was in fact what happened.



delatbel

I think we agree in this issue.

What does your reference to Brian of Nathreth mean?

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 76
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 3:09:50 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1344
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: online
error - sorry.

< Message edited by Marquo -- 12/29/2011 3:15:49 PM >

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 77
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 3:34:40 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Ya know, I read the whole section 9.1-9.14.

It must be in invisible ink, or one has to wear feldgrau glasses because I don't see anywhere that it says German NM is 50.

Russian NM, yes. 9.1.3 shows it's 50 from 42 on.


Check out the readme's on patches. The manual isn't up to date.
Although I'm not saying NM is 50.

< Message edited by glvaca -- 12/29/2011 3:35:23 PM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 78
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 3:41:16 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
For example, if losses are the undelying reason for lowering proficieny, why not establish loss levels and tie overall morale to this?


The problem here is that if basal national morale lowers due to losses, there are going to be more losses in the future, and you can ignite a forward feedback loop that makes the game "unbalanceable". No game will be alive in 1945. Every new small tweak in the game (i.e, fort building times) could have devastating consequences. If you combat this eventuality by making the morale losses and gains as a consequence of a battle much more unlikely (to have smoother morale increases and decreases), the Soviets will not have a decent chance to arrive to the German proficiency/basal morale, unless they begin the game much nearer to the Germans in this regard. This would mean to redesign the whole GC41-45 scenario.

Some have said that the National Morale is a balancing mechanism. I’d rather say that it is a buffering mechanism. If you remove that brake, or weaken it by making it event-linked, I am not sure the game becomes more interesting. As many players consider unpalatable the feeling of a scripted decrease in German prowess, I would rather suggest keeping constant the German Basal Morale at 75, and letting the Soviets hit 75 by 1945.



I'm Brian of Nazareth and so is my wife.

I think the big thing about the Soviet recovery in National Morale is that it models the actual effectiveness in the Soviet combat forces as a whole in the period 1941 - 1945. If you base national morale on events such as the loss of Moscow or Leningrad then the game is much more easily won by the player that gets ahead early.

One could argue that the reverse should apply. The loss of major centers causes the Russian peasantry to fight ever more gallantly to defeat the invading fascist menace. One could even argue that that was in fact what happened.


Well, isn't that exactly what this game is about? In fact ANY game should reward the side that gets ahead. Perhaps then the Soviets would fight and capturing Moscow et al would actually count for something?

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 79
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 4:18:52 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1344
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: online
For the sake of a balanced discussion, I searched and collated all of the rule changes concering moral in the updates:

Of the many rule and formula changes, 11 are neutral and affect both sides, 8 changes favors Axis; 3 favor the Soviet player. Draw your own conclusions about whether or not the morale rules have been adjusted to with a pro-Soviet slant or not; for me the answer is very clear.


V1.03 Beta 3 –

3. New Rule – Each turn there is a chance that a unit’s morale will be lowered by 1 or 2 points if its morale exceeds its national morale by 30 points or more.
19. Formula Change – Lowered the chance of a unit getting morale increases from combat if the unit’s morale already exceeds its national morale.
23. Formula Change – The chance and amount of morale reduction incurred by isolated units in the logistics phase has been reduced.

V1.04.10

5) Rules Changes to First Winter rules (Section 22.3):
(d) (Section 22.3.3) The Morale drop for exposed units was reduced from 2 to 1.
(e) (Section 22.3.3) Removed the automatic pre-combat morale reduction of 2 when morale was greater than 60.
(f) (Section 22.3.3) Added a loss of 1 morale for non-Finnish Axis units whenever they are attacked and the final end of combat odds are greater than 1:2.

7) Rule Changes to Refit rules (Section 18.3) – Units set to refit (and those automatically considered in refit) will no longer receive the following benefits from refit if they are adjacent to an enemy controlled hex during their logistics phase:
(a) (Section 9.1.1) Morale bonus if under 50 morale
(c) (Section 9.3.1) The refit experience (training) benefit when their experience is lower than their morale (previously not clearly documented).

11) Rule Change – Adjusted the amount of morale a unit loses after a battle. Now units are not guaranteed to lose a morale point when a battle is lost. The higher a unit’s morale is over its national morale, the greater the chance the morale will be reduced when it loses a battle.

36) Formula change - There is a slightly higher chance than previously for high national morale units to gain morale during the logistics phase (didn’t change for those with morale less than 60).


V1.04.22

3) New Rules – (Section 9.2.4) – Soviet non-guards units that are directly attached to a Guards Army HQ will receive a five point bonus to their national morale. Shock Army HQs do not provide a morale benefit to guards units. Guards Army and Shock Army HQs do not provide their +5 bonus to non-guards units if their command limit is exceeded (they must be within their command limit for any units under their command to receive a benefit).


V1.05.18

19) Changes to Morale Rules
a. The following units receive bonuses to their National Morale: All Cavalry, Mountain Airborne and Air Landing units, and Axis Allied motorized units +5, German Motorized Units +10, Soviet Motorized Units (from Sept 1942-August 1943) +5, Soviet Motorized Units (Sept 1943-end of war) +10.
b. Soviet National Morale has been changed to 50 in June 1941. One point is subtracted each month after this in 1941 (so it is 44 in Dec 41). In 1942 it is set to 40, with one point being added each month starting in September 1942 (so 44 in Dec 42). This continues in 1943 and 1944 until the Soviet National Morale reaches its maximum of 60 in April 1944.
c. Build morale now equals national morale in all cases (there is no separate build morale table anymore.
d. Changed rule so that the morale gain from refit when under 50 morale is only gained when the unit in refit is at least 10 hexes from a supplied enemy unit (similar to the current gain if less than morale 50 and 10 or more hexes from enemy unit).
f. Shock Armies provide their +5 bonus for non-guards units which don’t already have a specialty bonus. Guards Armies provide their +5 bonus for Guards units which don’t already have a specialty bonus.


V1.05.23


8) Morale adjustments across all scenarios to keep them in line with the adjusted morale rule changes
9) 1942 Campaign morale changes. Soviet regular units dropped about 5 morale points to an average of 50 while Guards units were dropped about 10-20 points to an average of 50.
German units unchanged.
10) 1943 Morale changes. Decreased German average morale to 70 (was 75). Decreased Average Soviet morale to 50 (was 55). Decreased Average Guards Soviet morale to 55 (was 60). Soviet and German motorized units (and motorized Guards) stayed about the same.
11) 1944 Morale Changes. German average morale increased to 67 (was 60). Increased German motorized morale to 77 (was 60). Soviet morale reduced to 60 (was 65). Soviet motorized morale reduced to 70 (was 75). Soviet Guards morale reduced to 65 (was 70).

V1.05.28

New Rule – Poorly supplied units can lose morale. If at the end of the logistics phase a unit has less than 20% of needed supplies, it has a chance of losing 1 morale point. If the value is less than 10% there is a chance of losing 2 morale points.

Marquo

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 80
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 5:01:19 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
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Marquo, we're discussing different things.
I'm not preoccupied with which side gets the most benifit from a rules change. I play both sides equally so it doesn't matter to me that much.

What I'm discussing is to leave morale up to the players not script it and use it as a game balancing tool. Get ride of all these restrictions and let the players sort it out.
It's not necessary and frustrating in a game with this scope.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 81
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 5:11:50 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 492
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quote:

Shock Armies provide their +5 bonus for non-guards units which don’t already have a specialty bonus. Guards Armies provide their +5 bonus for Guards units which don’t already have a specialty bonus.


I'm afraid I'm not clear on the Shock / Guards Army bonuses application/stacking.

Am I correct that specialty bonus refers only to: All Cavalry, Mountain Airborne and Air Landing units, and Axis Allied motorized units +5, German Motorized Units +10, Soviet Motorized Units (from Sept 1942-August 1943) +5, Soviet Motorized Units (Sept 1943-end of war) +10.

If I have a Guards rifle division under a Shock Army, it receives no bonus for being in a Shock Army, correct?
If I have a Soviet motorized unit under a Shock Army after Sept '42, it receives no bonus for being in a Shock Army, correct?
If I have a plain rifle division under a Guards Army, it receives no bonus for being in a Guards Army, correct?
If I have a Guards motorized unit under a Guards Army after Sept '42, it receives no bonus for being in a Guards Army, correct?
Guards unit designation and Guards Army membership does stack (excluding those with specialty bonuses already), correct?

I'm just trying to be clear on how I should (re)-org my forces for maximum morale effectiveness in the first blizzard and beyond.
If I'm clear on the rules, I'll be happy to put together a table to aid Soviets in double checking their army assignments.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 82
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 8:07:47 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1344
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: online
Glvaca,

I am also an equal opportunity player; you got me interested in organizing the morale rule changes

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 83
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 8:18:33 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1344
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: online
Seminole,

I beleive you are correct except for, "If I have a plain rifle division under a Guards Army, it receives no bonus for being in a Guards Army, correct?"

The rules read :V1.04.22 3) New Rules – (Section 9.2.4) – Soviet non-guards units that are directly attached to a Guards Army HQ will receive a five point bonus to their national morale. The Soviet Guard units already receive a ten point bonus to their national morale.

Marquo

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 84
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/29/2011 9:10:42 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Ya know, I read the whole section 9.1-9.14.

It must be in invisible ink, or one has to wear feldgrau glasses because I don't see anywhere that it says German NM is 50.

Russian NM, yes. 9.1.3 shows it's 50 from 42 on.


Check out the readme's on patches. The manual isn't up to date.
Although I'm not saying NM is 50.


True, but still no backing for the German NM is 50. Or hardcaps. (I know you don't claim either.)

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 85
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 12/30/2011 12:49:32 AM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Glvaca,

I am also an equal opportunity player; you got me interested in organizing the morale rule changes



Copy

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 86
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 1/1/2012 2:01:02 PM   
Lava


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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel
I think the big thing about the Soviet recovery in National Morale is that it models the actual effectiveness in the Soviet combat forces as a whole in the period 1941 - 1945.


From what I'm reading it appears that the recovery of Soviet National Morale is simple based on dates on the calendar. That is a terrible simulation. I'm sure one could statistically show that Soviet National Morale correlates directly to date, but in truth the significance of such a correlation is zero. Soviet National Morale almost certainly was tied to the battlefield and the closer the Soviets got to Berlin the higher it grew.

As I have written before, there are no "hero cities" in Wite. But the fact that cities did receive that recognition and indeed given that the Soviets were quite willing to accept close to a million casualties in the Battle for Moscow shows that cities did make a difference. Tying national morale to territorial gains, by either side, would appear to be an absolute minimum necessary if we want to move the game closer to history.

But fixing what appears to be a broken morale model on the strategic level would still leave us with an even more fundamental problem and that is what happens in 1941. As many have stated the Germans are at least a week (or more) ahead of historic time lines, right from the start of play. Most folks point at HQ buildup and the Lvov Pocket as the primary cases. But neither of these can account for the Axis knocking on the door of Minsk after the first three days of the war. Something more basic is at play here.

As I have tried to explain on various threads, the reason the Axis get such a turbo injected start is not because of features or operational art, it is because the way morale is simulated on the tactical level is also flawed.

There are two reasons why Axis players can create huge ahistoric pockets on Turn 1: one we can't change, and the other we can.

The first reason is because the Axis player knows where the Soviet units are and can simply move around them instead of actually encountering them as happened in the war. Historic hindsight at work here which has no fix.

The other reason the Axis player is allowed to make such huge pockets is because any potential resistance which could slow down the advance are removed by the way the game treats routed units. As we all know, when an Axis unit moves to the adjacent hex of a routed Soviet unit, that Soviet unit automatically routes again. The Axis player not only gets to convert Soviet territory for free, but also receives free Soviet casualties. This is not a simulation of warfare.

If OTOH, the Axis player had to AT LEAST expend MPs to force a second route these huge ahistoric pockets would immediately collapse. Think about it, the Axis player has to pretty much make a perfect move in the way of MPs in order to close off the Lvov pocket. Should he encounter even a single routed unit between Tarnapol and the Romanian border, and be forced to expend even just two MPs, there is a good chance he would fail to close the pocket and activate the Romanian army.

Now there has been some really good exchanges here as to how to bring more balance back to the game on the strategic level, but we also need to acknowledge that the imbalances don't start in '42 or '43, they start on Turn 1.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 87
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 1/1/2012 4:17:22 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1344
Joined: 9/26/2000
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"As I have written before, there are no "hero cities" in Wite. But the fact that cities did receive that recognition and indeed given that the Soviets were quite willing to accept close to a million casualties in the Battle for Moscow shows that cities did make a difference. Tying national morale to territorial gains, by either side, would appear to be an absolute minimum necessary if we want to move the game closer to history."

The Soviets were often forced to fight and die in cities for idiotic reasons, not necessarily because anyone except Stalin saw any value in what was being done. Morale is closely linked to territorial gains --> one has to fight to advance, and this causes morale to increase.


Marquo


(in reply to Lava)
Post #: 88
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 1/2/2012 1:04:26 AM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1242
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

What does your reference to Brian of Nathreth mean?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l23GPWAWSFo

It's an iconic scene from "Monty Python's Life of Brian". "I'm Brian of Nazareth and so is my wife" is just another way of saying "me too".


_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 89
RE: Whats the pt of national moral? - 1/2/2012 1:58:47 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
"As I have written before, there are no "hero cities" in Wite. But the fact that cities did receive that recognition and indeed given that the Soviets were quite willing to accept close to a million casualties in the Battle for Moscow shows that cities did make a difference. Tying national morale to territorial gains, by either side, would appear to be an absolute minimum necessary if we want to move the game closer to history."

The Soviets were often forced to fight and die in cities for idiotic reasons, not necessarily because anyone except Stalin saw any value in what was being done. Morale is closely linked to territorial gains --> one has to fight to advance, and this causes morale to increase.


Before any link between NM and progress/success/defeats is being made, one must first separate it into the proper parts, namely "will to fight" and "combat experience/training"! Before the convolution is resolved, any such coupling will be very strange and should not be done.

Will to fight could go up, if you like, both for an attacker after having taken a key city, and could go down for a defender loosing it. Also will to fight should go up for a defender if he defends a key position. However, the changes should remain rather subtle or must be topped to a small margin if you want to avoid any serious self-accelerating effects than can already happen with the simple moral gain rules. Else, nothing will speed up victors than more victories, and there will be hardly any a stop. Neither for the Germans early war, and even less so for the Soviets once they start rolling and retaking their cities on the reverse. And since they are much more numerous, statistics will give them a large benefit with any such rule.
Besides a certain trend that will allow German morale to peak in 42 with its furthest progress, the factors that are not captured dynamically in game should remain present, however:
Will to fight for the Germans should naturally still decline as the quick promised victory over Russia fails to materialized by start of 42, as the bombing campaigns at home start and the German soldiers more and more realize the hopeless of their situation, initially slowly after 42, and then quicker after June 44. Similarly Soviet morale growth should gain higher rates at certain points aside from any gains due to recovery of terrain.

Combat experience should be either be explicitly treated through replacement pools such as done in WitP/AE for the pilots (3 months training <30 exp, 6 months, 12 months etc.), or be based off the historical timeline that the changes in German training programs did have (the latter would assume that on general average in most games the losses and need for replacements would follow that the historical rates, which is probably good enough -- the first option adds micromanagement burden). In the first case, the released replacements would then affect the unit exp that they enter appropriately. As the war goes on, German training time would need to be shortened in order to get more replacements forward. The longer training pools could be "shut off", and lower exp recruits be forwarded. That naturally would lead to the decline of the Wehrmacht soldier quality that presently is linked to a time-line rather than true losses. I guess it won't make a big difference, though.

PS. Returning reconvalenscent soldiers could always come back with a certain morale (say 50 or so, indepedent of their state when wounded), or go into the specific slots.

< Message edited by janh -- 1/2/2012 2:02:57 PM >

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 90
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