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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

 
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 2:21:18 PM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Setting unit morale at 80 and 90 (for infantry) while setting NM lower makes no sense.  It is simply designed to force their morale down immediately.Actually, it does make sense.. Germany had a huge standing army in 1941. They drafted the best recruits already.. What doesn't make sense is the fact that morale is affected by wins/losses. That would make sense ONLY if morale was used in the tradional way... but as we all know it is not. In my opinion morale (as it is designed for this game) should fall with loss of life, the loss of a generation.. compared to recruits trained by the replacement system.

It is also a result of failed attackes leading to lost morale.  The probability of failed attacks lowering morale should be lowered a lot for both sides.

The probabilistic differences of morale increase when below national morale creates a functional effect that is opposite between the Soviets and Germany.  The Soviets have multiple avenues for unit morale increase, many of which Germany does not have meaningful access to (being 10 hexes away from an enemy, and most importantly, having unit morale higher than national morale will only RARELY happen for Germany).This is a game mechanic I agree with. The axis simply were not in the position to rest troops that much after Barbarossa commenced

I can't find the formula for morale change, and I'd love to discuss it to prove the probabilistic differences and their effect on gameplay.  Anyone know where I can find it?  I can't access patch notes prior to 1.05.18As far as I know they are in developer hands only




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Post #: 121
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 2:25:49 PM   
Pelton


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quote:

Easy to see for the german morale 70 units in 1941. They get up to 75 (and yes, 75 is national morale level in 1941 and 70 in 1942) in no time in the summer campaign but it is very hard for them to reach to 80..


Again for the 1 millionth time national morale is window dressing.

MORAL NEVER INCREASES OR DECREASES TO NATIONAL MORAL LEVELS FOR ANY GERMAN UNITS UNLESS THEY WIN or loss BATTLES.

German moral does not, never never never ever increases from 51 to the national moral levels of 65 or 70 or 75 it never has and never will sitting any wheres on the map.

You must win battles. End of story. Therefor German nation moral is 50 from turn 1 to turn 250.

No flying pig storys will ever change this simple fact of the rule set. Its 50 get over it.

On the other hand Russian moral will increase up to national moral levels SITTING.

Not sure why something so plainly simple is so hard to understand?

You can call German national moral 1,000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 if you want.
The units in game only lose or gain moral based on combat and supply now in some cases.

German national moral of 75, 100, 1,000,000,000 who cares it has zero effect in game.

Pelton



< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/24/2011 2:29:19 PM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 122
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 2:31:17 PM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

Easy to see for the german morale 70 units in 1941. They get up to 75 (and yes, 75 is national morale level in 1941 and 70 in 1942) in no time in the summer campaign but it is very hard for them to reach to 80..


Again for the 1 millionth time national morale is window dressing.

MORAL NEVER INCREASES OR DECREASES TO NATIONAL MORAL LEVELS FOR ANY GERMAN UNITS UNLESS THEY WIN or loss BATTLES.

German moral does not, never never never ever increases from 51 to the national moral levels of 65 or 70 or 75 it never has and never will sitting any wheres on the map.

You must win battles. End of story. Therefor German nation moral is 50 from turn 1 to turn 250.

No flying pig storys will ever change this simple fact of the rule set. Its 50 get over it.

On the other hand Russian moral will increase up to national moral levels SITTING.

Not sure why something so plainly simple is so hard to understand?

You can call German national moral 1,000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 if you want.
The units in game only lose or gain moral based on combat and supply now in some cases.

German national moral of 75, 100, 1,000,000,000 who cares it has zero effect in game.

Pelton




Well, you could read my post again and see that what I actually said was - National morale and actual morale differential affects how EASY troops gain morale while conducting battles and winning them.. I wasn't talking about resting troops as this is clearly an advantage of the Soviet union..

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Post #: 123
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 2:37:20 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4374
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am not saying that the moral system should be changed.

I think it basicly is working just fine. I would like to see some citys have a small effect on russian moral. Nothing positive for germans.

Say Leningrad -1 to moral, Moscow -3, Rostov -1, and a few other citys to east -1 each.

I am just sick and tired of devs and others crowing about german national moral being upped for a patch and how this will some how help.

THAT IS TOTAL BULL CRAP.

Tweaking Russian moral has real effects in game

Tweaking German moral has zero effect, because its 50. Thats how it is designed to work. I understand it and am fine with it working this way.

Just start calling an apple and apple.

Save the fairtales for X-mas morning for the kiddies.

Pelton


(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 124
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 2:41:59 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1326
Joined: 10/22/2008
Status: offline 		Good job avoiding a direct response on my argument... you are shooting yourself in the foot with this tone.. Let's set axis NM to an actual value of 50 and see how that works out.

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 11/24/2011 2:43:11 PM >

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Post #: 125
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 2:46:25 PM   
heliodorus04


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Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Everybody agrees Germany got weaker over the war.
WitE ensures it happens at the historical rate regardless of anything the Soviet player does, thanks to the mechanics of production and morale.

My point is that Germany shouldn't arbitrarily get weaker starting on turn 1 through the mechanic of National Morale.  Losses are what caused German morale to degrade over the war.  Here, it just happens, immediately, starting on turn 1.

If National Morale was 80, the rate at which the good German units would degrade would remain unchanged, but for units below 80 morale, the effect would be to keep them at around their starting morale on Turn 1, since the arbitrary formula for morale increase will always punish Germany by basing itself off a die(75).

In summer 1941 Germany should at least have a morale mechanic that is probabilistically neutral to their morale: this would let the players better control unit morale through smart attacks.  Instead, as soon as Germany attacks Russia, the mighty German army, conquerors of France in 6 weeks, immediately start degrading toward 75 morale by turn 17, irresepctive of their performance on the field.

It is nothing but a tether designed to make life easier on Soviet players without them having to do anything in the game to off-balance Germany.  The fact that the mechanics enable poor-morale Soviet units to easily reach 50 morale (even when national morale is 10 points lower) while Germany can never, ever expect any meaningful recovery through the same mechanics, is an insult.  It reinforces my assertion that not only do designers not want Germany to win, they want German players to have less fun.

At least I personally consider it extremely un-fun and punitive that game mechanics continuously build up my opponent while simultaneously ensure I am constricted to the performance of my historical predecessor...


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For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

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Post #: 126
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 3:33:35 PM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
It reinforces my assertion that not only do designers not want Germany to win, they want German players to have less fun.



You got to be joking me Helio...

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Post #: 127
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 3:50:30 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
It reinforces my assertion that not only do designers not want Germany to win, they want German players to have less fun.



You got to be joking me Helio...

I'm not known for my sense of humor...
One need look no further than the issue with creating units and SUs.
Soviet = yes
German = no.



< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 11/24/2011 3:58:42 PM >

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For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

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Post #: 128
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 5:19:43 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04


I'm not known for my sense of humor...


Don't see yourself short. I thought it was very funny.


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(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 129
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 9:07:46 PM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Again, I feel if German units, on refit for a long time, far from the front, are not moving well past 50 morale, there's some type of coding error.

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Post #: 130
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 10:00:09 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1369
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Wouldn't be the first time a bug snuck around for a long time (I'm talking to you, 47mm AT gun cost).

I'd really like to see the darn formula for morale increase, because I thought for certain I saw it somewhere.


_____________________________

For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 131
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 10:28:32 PM   
Pelton


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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Good job avoiding a direct response on my argument... you are shooting yourself in the foot with this tone.. Let's set axis NM to an actual value of 50 and see how that works out.


No i agree with recriuts ect ect stuff, been there talked about that before.

Any new units arriving come in at NM levels as they do now, then sure set NM to 0 if you want it doent matter.

Moral for German troops rise from under 50 to 50 at up to 10% per turn. This is how it is working in game now and always has been working.

Set NM at 0 or 100 or 1000000000000000000000000000000000. It doesn't matter at all because German moral in game does not increase unless your winning battles or the moral is under 50.

So sure set it at 50, who cares.

Russian moral on the other hand can increase to NM levels by sitting.

By design German NM is 50 no matter what fairytale they tell you or want to beleive.

Pelton

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 132
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 10:38:53 PM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
It reinforces my assertion that not only do designers not want Germany to win, they want German players to have less fun.



You got to be joking me Helio...


Based on results heliodorus is right and wrong. I dont beleive the designers not want Germany to win, but as the game is now its next to impossible as German to win.

Cannonfodder just read this AAR

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2792361

Tarhunnas did far far better then historical in all areas and gids was on his way to getting a major victory.

Pavel has given Tarhunnas a hot fix of 450k armament pts to make up for the 47mm bug, but still I think gids can break the german army again in 30 turns and will still beable to get a minor victory at least.

If your open minded ( and read the AAR) you have to agree that something is majorly out of wack if the German does far far better then historical in all areas and still gets rolled in 44.

Pelton


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Post #: 133
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/25/2011 7:54:07 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Sneaking bugs are the worst bugs. 

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Post #: 134
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/25/2011 2:54:03 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

If your open minded ( and read the AAR) you have to agree that something is majorly out of wack if the German does far far better then historical in all areas and still gets rolled in 44.


Gids vs. Tarhunnas games was started, I think as early as under 1.02 or 1.03, if I recall correctly. The number of fixes and new rules that should put the Wehrmacht in a more competitive footing come 1943 and 1944 is staggering.

If anything it speaks high volumes of how awesome are Tarhunnas (and others) achievements, even with the deck being so tilted.

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Post #: 135
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/25/2011 4:05:39 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: online 		Pelton, that is preposterous, the Tarhunnas versus Gids game is utterly, utterly broken. Nothing of value from a playtesting standpoint can be gleaned from it. Indeed, if this was a playtesting game it would have been killed long ago. It's accumulated so many errors and been patched so many times that it simply cannot give any useful information at this point.

Nobody should drawn any conclusions from it.

It's the fresh games that matter and give the best results. The only good games from a playtesting standpoint are the completely new 1.05 games. 1.04 games that got patched over don't tell us much, let alone a relic like this match in particular.

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