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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42?

 
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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 10:55:22 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4378
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Status: offline 		Odds 6.2 to 1 and enemy forses routed.

Yet the attacker loses more then defender again.




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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 10:57:00 AM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		4.2 to 1 odds attacker wins enemy retreas and attacker loses more men.






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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 10:59:01 AM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		4.2 to 1 odds attacker wins defender retreats and attacker loses more men again?






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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 11:02:31 AM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		Attacker wins odds at 1.5 to 1 as far as losses go.

Before 1.05 the ratio for attacking Germans when they won was 2.5 to 1.

Now the ratio is much lower, even vs junk units the ratio is not more then 1.5 to 1.

The average is 1 to 1.

I am still waiting on an answer why they felt the need to gimp the ratio. If you want a mobile front during 42 why gimp German attacking ratio so much?




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/21/2011 11:04:34 AM >

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 11:34:34 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I am still waiting on an answer why they felt the need to gimp the ratio. If you want a mobile front during 42 why gimp German attacking ratio so much?


Pelton, those screenshots are from 1943.

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Post #: 95
RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 2:44:28 PM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I am still waiting on an answer why they felt the need to gimp the ratio. If you want a mobile front during 42 why gimp German attacking ratio so much?

Bletchley_Geek


Pelton, those screenshots are from 1943.



According to that logic in '44 Germans will suffer another 50% more casualties.


As a comparison these are my attack following turn.






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< Message edited by Kamil -- 11/21/2011 2:46:04 PM >

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 3:20:05 PM   
heliodorus04


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Status: offline 		Kamil, I don't know where you stand editorial on the matter.
Do you think something is wrong, or that these results are within acceptable parameters?


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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 3:27:08 PM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

heliodorus04

Kamil, I don't know where you stand editorial on the matter.
Do you think something is wrong, or that these results are within acceptable parameters?



I don't have opinion so far, although German losses seems to be surprisingly on par with Soviet and I am attacking fortified positions.

I am waiting to see how it will be once blizzard is over and fighting takes place in snow.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 3:40:42 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

quote:

heliodorus04

Kamil, I don't know where you stand editorial on the matter.
Do you think something is wrong, or that these results are within acceptable parameters?



I don't have opinion so far, although German losses seems to be surprisingly on par with Soviet and I am attacking fortified positions.

I am waiting to see how it will be once blizzard is over and fighting takes place in snow.


Interesting shots Kamil. Without the 1:1 rule seems that attacking with the Soviet become far more predictable.

However, losses summaries only tell us part of the story. Taking a look on the detail tab would tells us to what degree those are destroyed or damaged squads, and how much retreat attrition both sides are taking due to retreat attrition.

EDIT: My guess is that Soviets are taking - proportionally - far more Destroyed than Damaged ground elements.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 11/21/2011 3:42:01 PM >

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 5:56:14 PM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		We had same ratio in 42 - 43. There is no real change.

The ratio was same in 42 as 43.

I did make that clear at the beginning of thread. The very first post is 42.

Thats why I did not bother with a 42 summer offensive, more examples on the AAR.

The ratio during 42 is the same ratio for losses as 43. Vs Hoooper losses during 42-43 were the same 2.5 to 1 if I counter attacked.

Devs have yet to deny it or conferm it.

I have asked with emails and here and no answers why it was changed.

Only thing I can think of it was done to make up for 1v1=2v1 getting removed after March 42. Which is fine if thats the design they are going with.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/21/2011 5:58:39 PM >

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 11:06:58 PM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		Hmm can we say the engine is a little on the screw ball side?

29.5 to 1 and the attacker losses more then defender?




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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 11:08:12 PM   
Pelton


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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/21/2011 11:09:42 PM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		11.8 to 1 and the attacker loses almost as many as defender.

hmmm normal, seems to be.




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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/22/2011 12:34:46 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		I am looking for the turn in my GC 41 - winter 41 the Soviets have six divisions deliberate attack a German infantry regiment - Soviet outnumbers 26:1 and have 4500 casualties to Axis 15. Ouch! But at least the Axis retreated . . .

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/22/2011 12:38:08 AM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		The 41 blizzard ratio and summer ratios are much different then march 42 to 45.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/22/2011 10:08:47 AM   
cpt flam


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Status: offline 		Pelton please why do you speak of summer
and show all attacks during blizzard
that would be cool to know

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/22/2011 10:50:13 AM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		Results were same during summer, its a server game so we can't go back.

As far as anyone knows blizzard has no effect on combat after 41/42.

Kamil and myself are also waiting to see if the results and ratios remain the same during up coming (43) snow/clear turns.


Pelton

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/22/2011 11:03:30 AM   
Cannonfodder


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Status: offline 		Pelton, can you show the details of the combat. That at least gives the devs something to work with. Something tells me it has to do with retreat attrition.

Axis casualties did start to go up in 1943 simply because the soviets got better at the business of war..

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 4:04:00 AM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		I have data and allot of it.

It has changed from 2.6 to 1 to 1.7 to 1, but coupled with the effects of - armament production and the removal of 1v1=2v1 ect it might be a wash or still a + for German.

I do have an open mind, hmm not at first, but I eat crow if I am wrong. Ask Flaviusx hehehe

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2851126&mpage=9

Pelton

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 5:41:00 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		I really don't see why you think this change was introduced in 1.05? I saw similar ratios in 1942 long before 1.05. You yourself admit that hardly any of your games have gotten into 1942...

To the extent that the ratios are "gimped" (as you put it) in 1942 vs 1941, it is presumably a result of some interaction between changes to Sov TOE and morale, and maybe an aggregate decrease in German morale.

I don't really have an opinion on whether this is "right" or not, but want to point out that when the Sovs make a failed attack, their losses typically exceed German losses by 5-10x, sometimes more. You need to take those results into account as well, not just what the Germans lose when they attack.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 11:24:18 AM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I really don't see why you think this change was introduced in 1.05? I saw similar ratios in 1942 long before 1.05. You yourself admit that hardly any of your games have gotten into 1942...

To the extent that the ratios are "gimped" (as you put it) in 1942 vs 1941, it is presumably a result of some interaction between changes to Sov TOE and morale, and maybe an aggregate decrease in German morale.

I don't really have an opinion on whether this is "right" or not, but want to point out that when the Sovs make a failed attack, their losses typically exceed German losses by 5-10x, sometimes more. You need to take those results into account as well, not just what the Germans lose when they attack.


I had 5 games pre 1.05 get to Spring of 42 not counting this one. All games were in the 2.5 to 1 range.

Losses on German now are also HVY with a held result, not as high as Russian , but still high. So any attack into a 2 to 3 fort belt is going to cost troops, but if the German player can pocket troops this will over come the higher lose ratios.

Pelton

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 3:03:58 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I had 5 games pre 1.05 get to Spring of 42 not counting this one. All games were in the 2.5 to 1 range.


But whatever changes occur, they might not occur until later in 1942, so I don't know if you would have gotten the same results in Spring 1942. I'm not an expert in Sov TOE, but given the introduction of rifle corps in June, etc, I think there were signficant TOE changes that could, at least in part, account for increased Sov effectiveness in mid-late 1942.

You've also been complaining about German national morale, I wonder if the "national morale gap" might narrow enough by mid-1942 to make another difference in combat results?

I guess what I'm saying is that the combat model is complex enough where I doubt that the devs changed a couple of lines of code in 1.05 to make the Germans suffer more losses. I suggest that either these issues have been in the game since the very beginning or are the result of some obscure aspect of the combat model.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 5:05:29 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		The national morale gap should be at its highest in mid 1942, if anything. Soviet morale craters during 42 and only starts climbing back up again towards the end of the year. 40 NM sucks.

(The Soviet does have various expedients to ease this effect: guards units and shock armies. But the numbers involved will be limited.)





< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 11/23/2011 5:07:13 PM >

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 6:33:09 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
]The national morale gap should be at its highest in mid 1942, if anything. Soviet morale craters during 42 and only starts climbing back up again towards the end of the year. 40 NM sucks.


I know it *should* be, but there have been arguments that the Germans lose morale too easily, and Sovs gain to easily, so the gap in 1942 could be smaller than we think. The Sovs in 1942 seem to be much more effective than in 1941, but the reasons are not very clear. I don't think, however, that the Germans were gimped, I think the reasons are more complicated, and it would be good to understand what is going on.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 7:39:35 PM   
gingerbread


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Status: offline 		Well, there is the co-morale, i.e. experience. In '41 it's in the low 30's for the shell units but it does not go down because of loosing a battle. It can be diluted when losses are made good but units should have higher exp in '42. If I understand correctly, exp is a term in the CV calculation, as is morale. Problem is that morale 40 makes you rout.
50 morale & 30 exp = .15
40 morale & 40 exp = .16

A German 80/80 nets .64 so you need 8 times raw CV to get a 2:1, bring lots of friends.

There is of course a possibility, though rather remote, that there was some hidden mitigation of the increased vulnerability that the Soviets suffered due to their doctrine and that this mitigation is still in effect. Interesting as myth...

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 8:54:33 PM   
Pelton


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Status: offline 		German morale tanks during the 41 blizzard and never recovers. National morale has nothing to do with this at all. I do not see how Russian morale sinks during 42.

They gain morale during blizzard its higher then national levels.

It will not go down unless attacked during 42. German morale will not increase during 42 unless attacking.

I beleive the ratios blow for Germans in June 42 because over all moral sucks 60 to 70 for 80% or more of the units. But it can get better IF IF your attacking and winning, pocketing troops ect during 42. Therefor Russian morale is sinking because they are losing.

IF IF I knew now then I would have attacked Kamil even with a shty ratio, because after several turns my moral would increase and his drop, PLUS I now know that the German side can take some hard hits for atleast 6 turns of 15 to 20 attacks per turn before starting to lose steam.

Yes I have the 88 armaments in my pocket that is having an effect, but I could have really been in the drivers set during this 42/43 winter.

Thats why we play the game.

1. GHC attack pocket what you can during 41.
2. Destory as much industry as possible.
3. Russian players attack during blizzard every turn as much as possible.
4. GHC attack during snow and every clear turn until summer 42.
5. GHC attack and pocket as much as you can during 42 summer.

National moral is meaningless and is window dressing. The moral of each unit is what matters. It will rise or fall based on combat.

The one really screwed up thing is German national moral is 50 from 41 to 45, because it never rises to national moral set points.

Thats why for some GHC players an offesive is just not possible during 42. Over all moral sucks an russian moral is high from a good blizzard. So you just blow attacking because moral for the german units does not increase when your 10+ hexes from the front, but if your russian it increases 1 to 3 points a turn.

National moral is window dressing for the German player, by design it does not work as it does for the russian player.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/23/2011 8:57:54 PM >

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/23/2011 9:18:05 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

German morale tanks during the 41 blizzard and never recovers. National morale has nothing to do with this at all. I do not see how Russian morale sinks during 42.
...

It will not go down unless attacked during 42. German morale will not increase during 42 unless attacking.


The bolded portion is the key. As the Axis, you must start attacking early in 1942 - as soon as you can. Any overextension of the Soviets must be pounced on, with every low-morale unit that you have. You need to use the late Winter turns as a morale building period and hit every good opportunity you can get in order to train back up your units morale through combat.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 9:24:30 AM   
randallw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I know it *should* be, but there have been arguments that the Germans lose morale too easily, and Sovs gain to easily, so the gap in 1942 could be smaller than we think. The Sovs in 1942 seem to be much more effective than in 1941, but the reasons are not very clear. I don't think, however, that the Germans were gimped, I think the reasons are more complicated, and it would be good to understand what is going on.


Even if the national morale of the Soviets drops from 1941 to mid 1942 the median experience level of tank and rifle units should improve. Last time I started a 1941 campaign Soviet units the median experience was about 35-38 for both tank and rifle divisions, even lower for the airborne brigades.

The Soviets also get enough leaders available so there should be none of those politically reliable NKVD dudes in charge of anything, replaced with leaders of semi-reasonable quality.

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 12:37:52 PM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

National moral is window dressing for the German player, by design it does not work as it does for the russian player.

Pelton


Pelton, it simply is not true. Right now I am at turn 16 in my game with Helio and I have units ranging from 30-55 in morale level. National morale helps as a modifier to get morale up to a certain level.

If your national morale is 45 and your unit has a morale of 35 it is easier for it to gain morale through attacking. If your unit has a morale level of 55 and national morale is 45 it is very hard for it to gain morale through attacking..

Easy to see for the german morale 70 units in 1941. They get up to 75 (and yes, 75 is national morale level in 1941 and 70 in 1942) in no time in the summer campaign but it is very hard for them to reach to 80..

You are very passionate about what you do but some of the stuff you are saying is bullcrap and it is affecting the point you are trying to make..

Go play the soviets for at least one game and see for yourself... Or keep on trying to willpower stuff into doing what you want it to do based on misinformation

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 11/24/2011 12:41:00 PM >

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RE: Why was Germa attacks uber gimped during 42? - 11/24/2011 1:47:55 PM   
heliodorus04


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Status: offline 		I still agree with Pelton about morale:
The game mechanics controlling morale ensure German morale is melting in a downward trend the whole war, with national morale changes ensuring nothing he does will affect the degradation of his army.
These same mechanics mean that the Soviet morale is constantly creeping up (with the exception of the few early months of 1942 when NM falls, making the process of Soviet morale increase a little slower and less impactful).

The problem to me is a factor of national morale being too low for Germany (it should be raised by 5 to 10 points for every period the game reflects), which could be fixed easily.  If nothing else, it should be 85 for the summer offensive through to snow.  This would at least stop punishing Germany for having good units.  Setting unit morale at 80 and 90 (for infantry) while setting NM lower makes no sense.  It is simply designed to force their morale down immediately.

It is also a result of failed attackes leading to lost morale.  The probability of failed attacks lowering morale should be lowered a lot for both sides.

The probabilistic differences of morale increase when below national morale creates a functional effect that is opposite between the Soviets and Germany.  The Soviets have multiple avenues for unit morale increase, many of which Germany does not have meaningful access to (being 10 hexes away from an enemy, and most importantly, having unit morale higher than national morale will only RARELY happen for Germany).

I can't find the formula for morale change, and I'd love to discuss it to prove the probabilistic differences and their effect on gameplay.  Anyone know where I can find it?  I can't access patch notes prior to 1.05.18


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For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

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