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Help with Allied Logistics

 
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Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 11:43:12 AM   
Powloon

 

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I am looking for some general advice on how to set up the Allied logistic machine / nightmare.

I am playing my first campaign as the Allies against the Japanese AI in scenario 2.

From some previous searches and my own muddled thinking:

I intend to use Bombay as my main logistics centre in SEA and distribute from there using the lower endureance xAKs and TKs to all points forward

In the Pacific I cannot decide whether Aukland or Fiji should be my main distribution centre. Any pros and cons are greatly appreciated.

So far I have sent all the 17 speed xAKs from India and the DEI to Cape Town and intend to use them to ferry supplies to Bombay/Perth. I have a large portion of the xAKs which can be converted xAPs on there way to Cape Town for conversion and possibly from there to the US or Aden to bring in reinforcements.

All the starting xAPs that begin in India I have sent to Aden to pick up reinforcements (with a few xAKs). The tankers I have set in motion towards Abadan to pick up fuel/oil.

Obviously there is a lot more to do (my first turn is already in danger of taking as long as the whole Pacific war) any tips are welcome.
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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 1:33:10 PM   
Graymane


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Which scenario are you playing and who is your opponent? To answer your specific questions on why Auckland/Fiji/Bombay, etc. I would ask why do you think those are good bases to use? What made you pick them over others? What do you think a base is going to need? What kinds of operations would you be supporting out of those bases?

(in reply to Powloon)
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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 2:18:00 PM   
Sardaukar


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Against AI in stock scens I used Karachi, Bombay, Sydney, Suva & Pearl Harbor as suppy hubs, then distributing from them to forward bases.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 2:35:05 PM   
Powloon

 

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Thanks Sardaukar I've been scouring your newbies AAR for ideas keep it coming.

How do you set up your supply network? Do you go for large convoys to make the most of your limited initial ASW and combat resources or smaller convoys to minimise potential losses from raids? Do you have the convoy follow a dedicated ASW TF or is it better to integrate your ASW into your convoy? Do you use specific merchant ship types for specific roles?

Apologies for all the questions as I'm currently at the bottom of the very steep learning curve!

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 3:10:25 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powloon

Thanks Sardaukar I've been scouring your newbies AAR for ideas keep it coming.

How do you set up your supply network? Do you go for large convoys to make the most of your limited initial ASW and combat resources or smaller convoys to minimise potential losses from raids? Do you have the convoy follow a dedicated ASW TF or is it better to integrate your ASW into your convoy? Do you use specific merchant ship types for specific roles?

Apologies for all the questions as I'm currently at the bottom of the very steep learning curve!


I go for large convoys, since it lessens the losses to submarines. One does not need very large escort to fend off IJN submarines, so it helps also with initial lack of ASW assets. Note that you have couple of very long range escorts, like PG Charleston. They are excellent for covering long-distance convoys, even when with small amount of ASW armament.
Large convoys can be bit risky if one happens to run into Japanese CVs, though, especially if one tends to have dozen large tankers etc. in one.

About using specific ship types, obviously some types are reserved for troop and aircraft transports. This include long-range and fast xAKs, you have quite a few xAKs capable for 16-17 knots and thus would not slow down troop convoys too much. For supply & fuel transports, bog-standard slower xAKs and TKs will do.


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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 8:02:51 PM   
rjopel

 

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Don't forget to setup a series of CS convoys from the UK to Cape Town to use the supplies that show up there. I've missed that one for months and am just now getting those running in my other games.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 9:25:42 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rjopel

Don't forget to setup a series of CS convoys from the UK to Cape Town to use the supplies that show up there. I've missed that one for months and am just now getting those running in my other games.


That is really good idea. I have missed that in all my games so far. Thanks for the tip!

Though mainly I run out of fuel in Cape Town, since I tend to ship it to Oz, to fuel up Australian industry and naval operations there.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 11/1/2011 9:26:55 PM >


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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/1/2011 10:39:49 PM   
zuluhour


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quote:

Don't forget to setup a series of CS convoys from the UK to Cape Town to use the supplies that show up there. I've missed that one for months and am just now getting those running in my other games


another sticky note!

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/2/2011 5:39:00 AM   
rjopel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

quote:

Don't forget to setup a series of CS convoys from the UK to Cape Town to use the supplies that show up there. I've missed that one for months and am just now getting those running in my other games


another sticky note!


It's a whole bunch of the 4175 cargo ships for the 52 day round trip. Also I use 2x10800 tankers and then ship fuel have another couple on a CS from East Coast to Cape Town.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/2/2011 6:16:30 AM   
JeffK


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You dont need shipping to move LCU or air units from East Coast to Cape Town.

I never look at the UK base, dont remember running dry at the Cape either.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/2/2011 3:22:43 PM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

You dont need shipping to move LCU or air units from East Coast to Cape Town.

I never look at the UK base, dont remember running dry at the Cape either.


I think this is more relevant to PBEM than AI games. PBEM games will find the convoy routes from the WC to NZ/Oz often interdicted by a combination of submarines, SCTF, LBA, and/or CVTF. As a backstop to this, many players move a large amount of supply through CT to Oz as well as to India/Burma. I doubt you would see nearly as great a need for this against the AI or even a less aggressive PBEM player

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/2/2011 3:25:23 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

You dont need shipping to move LCU or air units from East Coast to Cape Town.

I never look at the UK base, dont remember running dry at the Cape either.


I think this is more relevant to PBEM than AI games. PBEM games will find the convoy routes from the WC to NZ/Oz often interdicted by a combination of submarines, SCTF, LBA, and/or CVTF. As a backstop to this, many players move a large amount of supply through CT to Oz as well as to India/Burma. I doubt you would see nearly as great a need for this against the AI or even a less aggressive PBEM player


Since I tend to pile up more supply than I can ever use in the USA I use East Coast instead since it seems like it should be quicker.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 1:03:11 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

You dont need shipping to move LCU or air units from East Coast to Cape Town.

I never look at the UK base, dont remember running dry at the Cape either.


I think this is more relevant to PBEM than AI games. PBEM games will find the convoy routes from the WC to NZ/Oz often interdicted by a combination of submarines, SCTF, LBA, and/or CVTF. As a backstop to this, many players move a large amount of supply through CT to Oz as well as to India/Burma. I doubt you would see nearly as great a need for this against the AI or even a less aggressive PBEM player


I use CT/Perth against the AI, a lot shorter than SF/Sydney.
Explains why I have 10mill supply at SF!

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 1:38:45 AM   
Treetop64


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I've got three evenly spaced convoys shuttling supplies from Cape Town to China via Rangoon:  two with 8 Dominion 'M' cargo ships each, and one with 7 Dominion 'L's.  That yields about 130,000 tons of supplies on every convoy cycle - about nine weeks time - again with most of it going to China.  Of course, this can only work as long as I hold Rangoon and, preferably also, Pegu for the rail link.  The Japanese are making a mighty effort at Moulmein, though...

Air cover at Ragoon is key.  Thank goodness for all the 221 and 223 Group air reinforcements out of Aden!

However, I need to shunt supplies into CT from the UK in order not to deplete CT - the regular computer-controlled convoys that come to CT aren't enough to sustain this tempo.

Also, it's unbelievable how much supplies and fuel piles up in the Eastern U.S. over time!  Gotta start sending convoys that way...


< Message edited by Treetop64 -- 11/3/2011 1:42:42 AM >


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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 1:42:25 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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I pay a lot of attention to logistics. The part of the game I like the most

Sooooo.

First off I do not use the East American Coast (I guess vs human opponents it might make sense) at all.

From Seattle: supplies and fuel to North Pacific
From San Francisco: supplies to Pearl Harbor and Brisbane (or Sydney)
From Los Angeles: fuel to Pearl Harbor and Australia.

From Pearl Harbor: fuel and supplies to the central and south pacific bases. Pago Pago gets bigger convoys since they redistribute fuel and supplies to surrounding bases (Fidji, Bora Bora etc.).

When the South Pacific gets stronger (summer 1942), they get a big convoy from SF with supplies and another from LA with fuel.

Australia sends fuel and supplies to New Zealand.

From the Middle East:

1) supplies (few) to India
2) small tankers send fuel to India
3) medium tankers send fuel to Colombo
therefore
4) big tankers transport fuel from Colombo to Perth...

From Cape Town:
1) supplies to Perth
2) Supplies to Colombo -> to India

Easy and works like a charm

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 2:00:12 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rjopel

Don't forget to setup a series of CS convoys from the UK to Cape Town to use the supplies that show up there. I've missed that one for months and am just now getting those running in my other games.


It's a matter of style, but in my first game I managed to drain the UK to zero pretty easily. There's no advantage to using it to go to CT over the EC at all. The EC quickly builds more supplies than you have ships, and it has a max load speed and dock space.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 2:02:57 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I think this is more relevant to PBEM than AI games. PBEM games will find the convoy routes from the WC to NZ/Oz often interdicted by a combination of submarines, SCTF, LBA, and/or CVTF.


The AI has done each of these to me, in varying amounts. Newbies playing the AI should NOT see the WC to Oz as a Princess cruise. It is highly dangerous in 1942, and less so all the way through.

In particular they should attend to Tarawa route-arounds, Baker/Canton if/when, and Truk.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 2:21:42 AM   
Treetop64


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Yup.

Safe routes from the WC to OZ/Australia are LONG routes. 


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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 2:22:55 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

First off I do not use the East American Coast (I guess vs human opponents it might make sense) at all.

The EC is a huge freebie. AI players should use it. Why? Anything leaving there for another off-map destination, such as CT, Aden, or the Canal Zone, does not use fuel. Therefore there are no range considerations. Even xAKLs can make up a CS convoy from EC to CT and run on auto-pilot. EC to CT is a great route for all the dog & Cat merchants you evac from the DEI in the first months. (xAKs carry fuel just fine, albeit more inefficiently.) Pay the transit cost once to get them from their refugee port of CT to EC, then set them up to build CT and forget them for a year or so. They can't be attacked either. Just check on system damage every month and repair as needed. This can be done at either end.

From Seattle: supplies and fuel to North Pacific
From San Francisco: supplies to Pearl Harbor and Brisbane (or Sydney)
From Los Angeles: fuel to Pearl Harbor and Australia.

All WC to Oz routes take a lot of fuel, and the TFs have to be carefully formed for like endurances. Plus, they eat up escorts. Early, you also have to dogleg them around LBA traps, which eats up more fuel and time. The AI has surprises built in which make this route expensive on occasion. On the backhaul leg they eat up a good portion of the fuel they hauled out just getting home.

Oz will make a LOT of supply if you get it fuel. Fuel delivered to Perth from CT, which is a shorter, fuel-economic leg, will flow to the east coast of Oz by itself and start making supply piles. In the betas you can turn industry on and off in Oz if you like, so later on when fleet fuel is needed more than a third million supply at Sydney, you can turn HI off and save the fuel for the fleet.

I'm not saying don't set up some fuel piles across the wide Pacific, but hauling it at full cost each way to Oz from the WC is sub-optimal when you can get it from the EC to CT for nothing, and the run from the CT wornhole to Perth is relatively safe.


From the Middle East:

1) supplies (few) to India

Again, style, but I don't send suplies to India. Bombay and Calcutta make millions of points if you get India fuel. Dump CS tanker loads into Karachi from Abaddan, and it will flow where it needs to go. Later on, when you start doing Big Things in NE India and Burma, you'll need to haul supplies into those ports to flow inland. But India proper is fully railroaded and supplies go when they should, mostly.

2) small tankers send fuel to India
3) medium tankers send fuel to Colombo

I use Colombo as my main fleet base. Against the AI I've never felt a need to base in Bombay, or for sure not Karachi. Colombo is defensible against the AI if you start early.

therefore
4) big tankers transport fuel from Colombo to Perth...

Again, style, but this can be a pretty risky route, far more so that CT to Perth. The AI sometimes does CV raids into the IO. Depends on your script draw, and the timing is highly variable. You also have similar issues as with the WC to Oz routes in that a lot of the fuel you bring has to go back into the returning convoys to get them home. Any logistics movement one can do off-map one should do. It's free, except for normal, minor system damage. And it's 100% free of the risk of attack.




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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 3:08:02 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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Humm, I think you sort of convinced me to use these channels

Anyway, there's a flaw in your theory. The WC -> Australia (or Ceylon -> Perth) routes are risky? Are you sure? Keep in mind the convoys sail south of Bora Bora... If, despite this, the Japanese manage to raid them, then I AFFIRM they can raid any convoy west and northwest of Perth too = your "safe" route. The convoys will be caught once they leave their heaven

As I have said, I think I am going to follow your advice though.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 4:13:31 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Humm, I think you sort of convinced me to use these channels

Anyway, there's a flaw in your theory. The WC -> Australia (or Ceylon -> Perth) routes are risky? Are you sure? Keep in mind the convoys sail south of Bora Bora... If, despite this, the Japanese manage to raid them, then I AFFIRM they can raid any convoy west and northwest of Perth too = your "safe" route. The convoys will be caught once they leave their heaven

As I have said, I think I am going to follow your advice though.


An addendum after I looked at the manual, in my annual "take a Saturday night bath and re-read the rules" ritual (even though it's Wednesday here.) There is some fuel consumption, and the damage can accrue in the off-map movement cases where the ship must move in the first phase to the "transit box." (See manual for details.) EC is one of these cases. It's a minor fuel consumption, but a little. True off-map-to-off-map base moves don't use fuel.

I have been hit by the AI on a WC to Sydney route by subs, CVs, LBA, and surface raiders all four. I didn't route south of Bora Bora. More on the latitude of Suva, with doglegs around Tarawa once needed, as well as Baker/Canton when the AI had one or both. Going very far south is of course possible, but adds time if Sydney is the destination. If one is using NZ as a dump a southern route makes sense. I don't like to use NZ personally. To get the fuel where it's needed is another unload/load cycle, and the transit to Oz has to happen regardless. I'd rather do it with good escorts I brought on the trans-Pacific. I did some WC to Oz routing in my first game, but in the second I used CT exclusively and did fine.

I have seen, five times in two games and there may have been more I did not see, CV raids into the IO, usually from Java as a best guess. Different make-ups. One very late war one had only Akagi and one lone DD, as that was about all that was left, but it got to the height of Port Blair, to the west about half way to the map edge. The others swung more towards Diego and did not go as far north. Two that I recall caught tanker convoys, and were the reason I stopped doing a N-S route to Oz from the Mideast. I recall in my first game losing six tankers in one attack by CV raiders in the IO. Not fun. These raids took place after 1942 in total I believe. In 1942 the CVs raided the E-W routes at least to east of Pago Pago. I caught that one retiring and sank, I think, Shoho near Noumea as it retired to refuel.

I've had good luck on a straight shot from the CT wormhole to Perth. Haven't been attacked. Not to say there aren't scripts to raid there, but I haven't drawn any.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 5:55:22 AM   
Treetop64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I pay a lot of attention to logistics. The part of the game I like the most



I know what you mean. It's my favorite part of the game, too. The proper moving around of stuff and people is about 90% of the game. I am quite thankful that the devs spent as much time developing that aspect of the game as much as they did.



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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 2:39:45 PM   
dr.hal


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The whole concept of supply and logistics is something that almost ALL wargames ignore and yes, it is very much a fun part (but dull? part) of the game. Remember what was said about an army (navy?); it marches on its stomach (did I get that right?). For the original poster, Powloon, a couple of points I would adhere to.

1) Do not mix ships with differing speeds greater than one knot if possible. It is a needless delay. I usually use the 12 knot cargo carriers for that very purpose (cargo) and use their range to determine which aspect of the logistic chain they are part of, those with 6K range on shorter hauls, those with 12K or more on trans Pacific and to the East coast. I have never bothered with the UK, as I can't move the EC supplies fast enough to need the UK.

2) As suggested, use mass convoys (mine regularly have 30-50 ships or more screened by proportionally fewer escorts (but usually one CL or larger to fend off any surface raider).

3) Be prepared to supply Capetown with fuel.

4) Don't neglect the transportation of OIL, especially to Ozzzz!!!!!

5) Keep your fast AKs to move in tandem with your fast APs in the transport of troops so that you don't slow down your APs thus increasing their exposure to sub or surface attack! Do not use them normally for pure cargo runs.

6) Rangoon is vital, not only to China (interior Burma Road) but to how far the Japanese go into Burma.. they can't advance far if this very large thorn is in their side. Here air power is key as was suggest.

Hal

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Post #: 23
RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 2:46:03 PM   
USS America


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I don't have the chart in front of me at work, but I'm pretty sure the off map distance between CT and the UK is shorter than from CT to the East Coast of the US.  Not a fuel impact, but transit time. 

Count me as another who enjoys the logistics in AE.  The War in the Pacific was mostly dictated by logistics and the game accurately emphasizes this. 


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Post #: 24
RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 3:01:36 PM   
dr.hal


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But you don't get much from the UK as I recall, where there are troops and aircraft as well as LOTS of supplies from the EC.... And most stuff from the UK was at that time made in the USA to begin with!!!!!!

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 3:05:34 PM   
USS America


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Dr. Hal, LCU'S and air groups can transfer from EC to CT or between any other connected off map bases without using ships.  Only use the ships to move supply/fuel between off map bases, and then to move troops/planes/supply/fuel onto the map from an off map base.  The UK is a very good supply source and an available shipyard that happens to be a little closer to CT than the EC.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 3:12:06 PM   
dr.hal


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WHAT??? IS that really true USS America (Mike)? How did I miss that??? I've been loading troops and AC all this time for nothing??? Boy do I feel stupid.....Hal

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 11/3/2011 3:13:10 PM >

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 3:23:05 PM   
USS America


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Yep, troops or air groups that are off map can "transfer" to other connected off map bases.  They then appear on the "reinforcement" queue as arriving at that base in x days.

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 3:28:28 PM   
Banzan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

WHAT??? IS that really true USS America (Mike)? How did I miss that??? I've been loading troops and AC all this time for nothing??? Boy do I feel stupid.....Hal


I'll join the club...

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RE: Help with Allied Logistics - 11/3/2011 3:29:04 PM   
David The Great

 

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Can you move LCU etc. between EC and Aden without using transports ?

< Message edited by David The Great -- 11/3/2011 4:10:54 PM >

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