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Night air combat - 11/1/2011 4:07:51 AM   
hades1001

 

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Hi I just tried out night bombing with 4E bombers and my opponent tried to fly Tojos at night to stop me.

Here is the pleasant result for JFBs:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Portland Roads , at 91,132

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 69



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 17
B-17F Fortress x 17
B-24D Liberator x 50


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Portland Roads , at 91,132

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 32



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 20000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb


Any comments for this combat? Is it too unrealistic?
Post #: 1
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 7:53:52 AM   
Puhis


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From: Finland
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90 heavy bombers flying night mission in thunderstorm, and shot down over 20 japanese non-night fighters? Sure it's realistic... 

I think night air combat needs some "fine tuning"

(in reply to hades1001)
Post #: 2
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 12:03:29 PM   
Bliztk


Posts: 777
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline
I`m experiencing similar results
-------------------------

Night Air attack on Rabaul , at 106,125

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     A6M3 Zero x 12



Allied aircraft
     B-24D Liberator x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
     A6M3 Zero: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
      3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 10000 feet *
              Port Attack:  5 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
204 Ku S-1/C with A6M3 Zero (3 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     3 plane(s) intercepting now.
     Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 12000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes



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Post #: 3
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 12:18:58 PM   
Mike Solli


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Geez, guess I'm not going to try contesting night bombing for a while.

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Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 4
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 12:29:27 PM   
Bliztk


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From: Electronic City
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It`s with latest betapatch. If my guess is correct something is boosting the night bombers defensive fire




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Post #: 5
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 12:59:13 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 22877
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From: San Antonio, TX
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Yeesh. It's issues like this that will make me want to stick with 'official' patches only until these gameplay problems are ironed out for good.

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Post #: 6
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 1:09:02 PM   
Bliztk


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From: Electronic City
Status: offline
The improvement of betapatches clearly IMHO makes the betapatched version superior to the official one

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Post #: 7
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 1:25:19 PM   
PaxMondo


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Without knowing the exp of the fighter, hard to say. 

I've been playing Downfall, and that's not consistent with what I see against B29's IF my NF pilots are +60 exp / +60 skill.  Even with good pilots, I'm not getting too many of the B29's (2-5% if my NF's match or exceed the 4E numbers).  However, I'm not losing too many NF's (<1%).

Biggest issue I have been having is even when my NF's intercept in numbers, the 4E's continue their attack irregardless.  In several hundred attacks, I have seen the 4E's break off their attack only once.  In comparison, my Helen II's on night attack break off attack about 50% of the time when intercepted.  Have not been able to identify any variable here other than medium bomber and heavy bomber .... and well of course, the AI is on Hard, but not aware that the AI setting has any impact upon air combat routines ... or does it?

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 11/1/2011 1:28:31 PM >


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Pax

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Post #: 8
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 1:25:30 PM   
CT Grognard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

90 heavy bombers flying night mission in thunderstorm, and shot down over 20 japanese non-night fighters? Sure it's realistic... 

I think night air combat needs some "fine tuning"



All I can think of is that, with 69 Tojos trying to intercept 80+ 4E bombers at 21,000 feet at NIGHT and with THUNDERSTORMS there were mid-air collisions.

I would love to know what the moonlight was?

It takes a special kind of crazy to take off at night and in thunderstorms without ILS, never mind radar...

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 9
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 1:56:50 PM   
Erkki


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Night air ops would need their own code routines separate from daytime. What I suppose happens is the bombers will still fly in formation even in night and get the formation bonus while fighter effectiveness is reduced due to darkness.

Pax, I've seen 4Es abort an attack run only once - when an A5M4 shot down the only B-17 that tried to hit my Zuiho TF.

< Message edited by Erkki -- 11/1/2011 1:57:34 PM >


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Post #: 10
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 2:00:04 PM   
cavalry

 

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I am on patch P6 and I would say I think i have seen night losses to fighters going up...

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Post #: 11
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 2:13:09 PM   
hades1001

 

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Actually I shot down about 30 tojos, a whole Sentai of 70-80 exp pilots. And they are all KIA after the combat.

I lost nothing, maybe one bomber by ops. Maybe I should stop night bombing until it's fixed.

(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 12
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 2:20:41 PM   
Puhis


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IMO night bombing is so easy and overpowered that HRs are definitely needed anyway...

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Post #: 13
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 3:26:34 PM   
Itdepends

 

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My opponent is also experiencing significant pain at contesting my 4E night bomber missions.

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Post #: 14
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 4:27:36 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

IMO night bombing is so easy and overpowered that HRs are definitely needed anyway...

I'll be sure to tell my opponent .. .hold it, I play the AI. Who do I call?

ANDY!!! I need a house rule about night bombing!!!

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Pax

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Post #: 15
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 8:12:14 PM   
Lecivius


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From: Denver
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I have never noticed this type of result.  I have seen where an intercepted Night Bombing run was disruped by an interception.  I don't really shoot anything down, but the damage is significantly less than when unopposed.

I have no clue if this is WAD or not.

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Post #: 16
RE: Night air combat - 11/1/2011 10:16:15 PM   
zuluhour


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From: Maryland
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inexperienced B17E pilots (39-48) in raids of eight to ten ac have only scored 1 hit max per raid at night at above 10M (house rule for all night raids aand all 4E raids). newb 2 cents.

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Post #: 17
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 12:14:27 AM   
spence

 

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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The Japanese CAP of A6M2s has done quite well defending their KB against night torpedo attacks in my PBEM. Mere radar equipped Albatross and Swordfish lost roughly 1 bomber per attack in air to air to A6Ms equipped with the fearsome Mark I Mod 0 Eyeball while scoring no hits against any warship over the course of the moonlit parts of 2 months. The weather varied from good to bad. The bombers were mid-50s to mid-60s experience in torpedo attack.

(Interesting that the Brits get such short shrift considering that FAA torpedo bombers had conducted quite a number of night/low light/bad weather torpedo attacks against both German and Italian ships by Dec 7th, both in port and at sea: many of them inflicting damage on the enemy. Compare to the IJN's record of same by Sept-Nov 1942: the time frame of these actions).


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Post #: 18
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 1:12:01 AM   
hades1001

 

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Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline
Here is the revenge of the Empire. I guess night bombing will be banned until it is fixed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Charters Towers , at 91,145

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 79



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 74 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 7 destroyed on ground
B-17F Fortress: 36 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground
P-38F Lightning: 27 damaged
P-38F Lightning: 4 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 25 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 4 destroyed on ground
Hurricane IIc Trop: 3 damaged
Hurricane IIc Trop: 1 destroyed on ground
P-70 Havoc: 2 damaged
P-70 Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground
Kittyhawk IA: 5 damaged
Kittyhawk IA: 2 destroyed on ground
P-40E Warhawk: 18 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 11 destroyed on ground
P-40K Warhawk: 1 damaged
P-40K Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 19
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 74

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
20 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
26 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 19
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 7:36:12 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
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From: Vienna, Austria
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I consider HR on night bombing mandatory, not that this is something new.

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Post #: 20
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 7:36:52 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 693
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Here is the revenge of the Empire. I guess night bombing will be banned until it is fixed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Charters Towers , at 91,145

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 79



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 74 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 7 destroyed on ground
B-17F Fortress: 36 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground
P-38F Lightning: 27 damaged
P-38F Lightning: 4 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 25 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 4 destroyed on ground
Hurricane IIc Trop: 3 damaged
Hurricane IIc Trop: 1 destroyed on ground
P-70 Havoc: 2 damaged
P-70 Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground
Kittyhawk IA: 5 damaged
Kittyhawk IA: 2 destroyed on ground
P-40E Warhawk: 18 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 11 destroyed on ground
P-40K Warhawk: 1 damaged
P-40K Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 19
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 74

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
20 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
26 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



Well...what size is Charters Towers airfield? Judging by the sheer numbers on the damaged/destroyed list, it appears your opponent has the airfield very much overstacked, contributing to the high damage.

You had 79 Betties dropping a total of 158x 250kg and 316x 60kg bombs from 10,000 feet - achieving 94 hits. That's a 20% hit ratio.

A good house rule for night bombing, in my opinion, is to prevent night bombing if moonlight is below 50%.

Also, no night bombing below 10,000 feet.

(in reply to hades1001)
Post #: 21
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 7:36:52 AM   
LoBaron


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Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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double post

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/2/2011 5:37:01 PM >


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Post #: 22
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 7:44:39 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
In our PBEM we additionally use mandatory 50% rest settings to reduce number
of planes on strike (in addition to min alt 10k and mission limitations depending
on moon). Works fine until now.


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Post #: 23
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 7:45:43 AM   
CT Grognard

 

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From: Cape Town, South Africa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Here is the revenge of the Empire. I guess night bombing will be banned until it is fixed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Charters Towers , at 91,145

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 79



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 74 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 7 destroyed on ground
B-17F Fortress: 36 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground
P-38F Lightning: 27 damaged
P-38F Lightning: 4 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 25 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 4 destroyed on ground
Hurricane IIc Trop: 3 damaged
Hurricane IIc Trop: 1 destroyed on ground
P-70 Havoc: 2 damaged
P-70 Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground
Kittyhawk IA: 5 damaged
Kittyhawk IA: 2 destroyed on ground
P-40E Warhawk: 18 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 11 destroyed on ground
P-40K Warhawk: 1 damaged
P-40K Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 19
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 74

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
20 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
26 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



Well...what size is Charters Towers airfield? Judging by the sheer numbers on the damaged/destroyed list, it appears your opponent has the airfield very much overstacked, contributing to the high damage.

You had 79 Betties dropping a total of 158x 250kg and 316x 60kg bombs from 10,000 feet - achieving 94 hits. That's a 20% hit ratio.

A good house rule for night bombing, in my opinion, is to prevent night bombing if moonlight is below 50%.

Also, no night bombing below 10,000 feet.


By my count there are at least 9 airgroups at that base.

In the absence of an Air HQ, the base would have to be size 9 for no administrative overstacking penalties.

In terms of number of engines - there appear to be a LOT.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 24
RE: Night air combat - 11/2/2011 12:17:11 PM   
Itdepends

 

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And no nightime CAP- whoever was on the receiving end of that was foolish not to protect the base with a night CAP

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Post #: 25
RE: Night air combat - 11/3/2011 3:05:31 PM   
dr.hal


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Thus far I've found that the night bombing is balance and I'm in scenario 2 against a human (or that's what he says he is, Sorry Paul). I think the real value of putting up cap may not be in shooting down your enemy, but in disrupting an attack's effectiveness. Hal

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Post #: 26
RE: Night air combat - 11/3/2011 5:12:19 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Thus far I've found that the night bombing is balance and I'm in scenario 2 against a human (or that's what he says he is, Sorry Paul). I think the real value of putting up cap may not be in shooting down your enemy, but in disrupting an attack's effectiveness. Hal


In my current PBeM (scenario 1) I am having no trouble with allied night bombings in Burma - by various British aircraft. I agree with Hal - if you put up fighters they may not shoot anything down, but they severely disrupt the enemies attack and I suffer like 1 runway hit or less. We are only in late 42 and i think that is good. Throw up half a dozen fighters to cause some disruption and they drop their load everywhere but on the airfields.

Xargun

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Post #: 27
RE: Night air combat - 11/4/2011 3:53:09 PM   
cavalry

 

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I s there any chance there will be some changes like for instance a night experience modifiyer that increases op loses or something?

NF units would be considered night trained and avoid such issues I suppose.

Cav

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Post #: 28
RE: Night air combat - 11/4/2011 4:38:09 PM   
obvert


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quote:

In my current PBeM (scenario 1) I am having no trouble with allied night bombings in Burma - by various British aircraft. I agree with Hal - if you put up fighters they may not shoot anything down, but they severely disrupt the enemies attack and I suffer like 1 runway hit or less. We are only in late 42 and i think that is good. Throw up half a dozen fighters to cause some disruption and they drop their load everywhere but on the airfields.

Xargun


In my PBEM as japan I captured Palembang happily with NO damage. Obviously elated. Then my opponent started night bombing from 6,000 ft with 35-40 Martin 139s and a few other Dutch scraps. During 4 nights he averaged 7-10 'hits' which resulted in 103 oil damage before I nuked his fields.

The first night I had no CAP up. From that point on I had 25-30 A6M2s on Night CAP. They shot down 2 I think, damaged a few others, and didn't really stop the hits from coming. The last hit before the field at Batavia was trashed was still at 8 Oil hits I think.

So I'm not looking forward to this later with 4Es! Such is life in AE.

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Post #: 29
RE: Night air combat - 11/4/2011 6:48:05 PM   
Nikademus


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From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I s there any chance there will be some changes like for instance a night experience modifiyer that increases op loses or something?

NF units would be considered night trained and avoid such issues I suppose.

Cav


no.



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