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Soviet 44 GC - 10/29/2011 11:37:36 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
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I'm starting a 44GC as Soviet and have encountered a couple of things at the start that I wonder if were design decisions or oversights. I don't imagine may people play the 44 GC.

There are two SAD bases in the Soviet OOB. They shouldn't exist at this point, and will randomly disband. Shouldn't they be other types of airbases?

None of the lend lease aircraft factories exist. There are 24 squadrons of P39Q and no replacements coming and the pool is empty. Shouldn't the lend lease planes [and tanks to a lesser extent] that continue past June 44 still be included? Especially the C47's and the P39's since there are so many in the OOB. Speaking of empty pools, why do they start empty? In a couple of months there will be thousands of planes in the pool. IMO the later war scenarios should start with at least 100 planes of every type in active service in the pool.

The Red Army is supposed to have the initiative but 54% of the army is frozen on the first clear weather turn. Why? Why let the Soviets have the first move if you are going to freeze half the army?

Finally, there are zero AP available on turn one. Shouldn't there be at minimum one turns worth? I let the turn cycle just to see what would happen and half the frozen force unfroze after the German turn, and there were 54 AP available (scenario description says 60 per turn). Also one of the SAD disbanded.<EDIT> The 54 AP is because of difficulty level, still think you should start with a turns worth.

<EDIT> Forgot one thing: The rule book says to use the VVS bases for partisan resupply, but there are no VVS bases in the OOB.

I've had the game for just over two months and have been playing like crazy. I'd played all of Gary's previous versions of War in Russia over the years and this one doesn't disappoint. None of these questions are intended as criticisms, just genuinely curious if these were oversights or design decisions.

Thanks for the great game.





< Message edited by Mike13z50 -- 10/31/2011 10:58:46 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 10/31/2011 6:39:43 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21570
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
I'll make sure Trey sees this as he has been the one working on the 44 campaign.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 2
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 10/31/2011 10:57:14 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline
Thanks Joel!

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 3
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 10/31/2011 11:10:56 PM   
ComradeP

 

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The frozen units are because otherwise the Soviets just steamroll the Axis. You're supposed to gradually launch an offensive, like the historical Soviets, instead of waging war across the entire front starting on turn 1.

You can do so in a 41/42/43 campaign that gets to June 1944, but not at the start of the actual 1944 campaign. This is mostly to keep the number of disasters the Axis face initially at a historical level.

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
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Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 4
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 10/31/2011 11:34:08 PM   
el hefe


Posts: 3192
Joined: 10/28/2002
Status: offline
The SAD bases are probably a case of where historical accuracy don't synch up with the game rules. There were a couple of these mixed (SAD) divisions/airbases in June 1944. We need to either adjust the rule or the airbase name in-game but they are historically correct. There are also SAD airbases in the 1943 campaign as well.

My understanding is that there are no lend lease factories as they are added to the production at a fixed rate each turn. As for the pools, none of the scenarios should have aircraft available in the pools. Should there be aircraft in the pools at start? Dunno. I don't know what was sitting around historically on 22 June 1944. The Soviets aren't going to be hurting for aircraft anyways.

The Soviet and German army start frozen (all but the Bagration forces) and this was a change from the earlier version in which they were static instead and the player had to pay an AP cost to reactivate. I didn't like this on later reflection so I changed the armies to frozen. What happens is that these armies unfreeze all along the line and should be completely unfrozen by Turn 5 or so. It doesn't work as well as I wanted (it works great in 1943) because the Hungarians get actiavted immediately due to another rule which forces the Germans and Soviets to activate even sooner. Pieter (Comrade) is correct in that this was to simulate some operational constraints on the commanders that tied down some forces at the start of the scenario and prevents the German player from immediately conducting a massive withdrawal on his turn to maneuever himself out of the disadvantegous position that he starts in.

On APs, the Soviets start fully organized for their Operation Bagration so the assumption here is that the Soviets "spent" those points organizing their forces for the offensive. This forces the Soviet player to at least use the historical plan at the start of the scenario.

Not sure how the partisan resupply works.

Trey



quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

I'm starting a 44GC as Soviet and have encountered a couple of things at the start that I wonder if were design decisions or oversights. I don't imagine may people play the 44 GC.

There are two SAD bases in the Soviet OOB. They shouldn't exist at this point, and will randomly disband. Shouldn't they be other types of airbases?

None of the lend lease aircraft factories exist. There are 24 squadrons of P39Q and no replacements coming and the pool is empty. Shouldn't the lend lease planes [and tanks to a lesser extent] that continue past June 44 still be included? Especially the C47's and the P39's since there are so many in the OOB. Speaking of empty pools, why do they start empty? In a couple of months there will be thousands of planes in the pool. IMO the later war scenarios should start with at least 100 planes of every type in active service in the pool.

The Red Army is supposed to have the initiative but 54% of the army is frozen on the first clear weather turn. Why? Why let the Soviets have the first move if you are going to freeze half the army?

Finally, there are zero AP available on turn one. Shouldn't there be at minimum one turns worth? I let the turn cycle just to see what would happen and half the frozen force unfroze after the German turn, and there were 54 AP available (scenario description says 60 per turn). Also one of the SAD disbanded.<EDIT> The 54 AP is because of difficulty level, still think you should start with a turns worth.

<EDIT> Forgot one thing: The rule book says to use the VVS bases for partisan resupply, but there are no VVS bases in the OOB.

I've had the game for just over two months and have been playing like crazy. I'd played all of Gary's previous versions of War in Russia over the years and this one doesn't disappoint. None of these questions are intended as criticisms, just genuinely curious if these were oversights or design decisions.

Thanks for the great game.







_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
Sabre 21's perpetual arch-nemisis

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 5
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 11/1/2011 6:02:49 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline
quote:

My understanding is that there are no lend lease factories as they are added to the production at a fixed rate each turn. As for the pools, none of the scenarios should have aircraft available in the pools. Should there be aircraft in the pools at start? Dunno. I don't know what was sitting around historically on 22 June 1944. The Soviets aren't going to be hurting for aircraft anyways.


On the lend lease question: No replacements show up; the only thing you get from lend lease are much needed trucks and supplies.

On the question of empty pools at the start, I am aware that none of the scenarios start with anything in the pools. I bought the original War in Russia from Babbages in 1985 and have played all the successors. But I couldn't call Gary up and say, "Hey dude, here is why you should start with equipment in the pools."

So this is my opportunity.

Scenario start is a snapshot in time. Theoretically there was action before start and it should imitate the action that follows. The proposed equipment in the pools represents production from months previous to start in the supply chain, that is not yet delivered to the units. The design decision to start with with all pools empty is assuming that every single item was magically delivered to active units in the pre-game logistical model. A model which the games logistical system can not duplicate.

You know what the equipment status of active units was from historical records. You know how many type xxxx were being produced from the same source. What I doubt is known is how many were in the supply chain on start date. Even if that is known, what I am suggesting is that it would be positive for game purposes to put x weeks production in the pools before start. It would allow the computers model of the supply chain to start immediately instead of waiting for production to build up.

On the AP question: Yes but, I'm not Stalin/Zukhov whoever it is in the COC the player represents. I want to change things, and the game won't let me. This is a game. It should simulate history not try to repeat it. If it is not fun people will stop playing.

There are non-fun aspects to the 44 Grand Campaign. I've tried to list the ones I noticed and suggests improvements. My guess is people don't play this campaign very often.

I'm about to go on a radical downsizing adventure to reshape the Red Army.

(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 6
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 11/1/2011 6:43:39 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21570
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
Thanks for the comments. Yes, Lend Lease appears to be missing in the 44 campaign (it's in the other campaigns). Probably because Trey didn't realize these are factories that need to be added into the data. We'll see about correcting this. We have started work on a scenario disk, and two of the scenarios are Trey's Decision in the Danube '44-45 and Retreat From Leningrad '44. The former starts just before the Rumanian surrender is a lot of fun to play. I'm just starting to enjoy playing some of these later war scenarios. I agree that few play these so they don't get as much attention.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 7
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 11/2/2011 1:02:26 AM   
el hefe


Posts: 3192
Joined: 10/28/2002
Status: offline
I didn't know that Lend Lease had factories so thanks for keying me in here. I've found these "Factories" and so I will fix the 44 Campaign appropriately and so "the spice shall flow." I get what you are saying on the supply chain. I really have no idea what would be appropriate for the hundreds of individual pieces of equipment. Maybe a couple of weeks to a month of production could be used as a starter. One element that is used is to have an armament pool at the beginning of the scenario so the production system has raw materials at the beginning to produce the equipment on-demand. This is a measure to alleviate the empty pools by giving both sides some extra production capability.

Be careful of what you wish on the AP issue. Without the limited APs and unfrozen armies in constraints, you have now given the German Army free reign to get out of its operational disadvantage. You can expect that the Germans will immediately fall back past Minsk and send in about a dozen panzer divisions to Army Group Center on the first turn. This is what the AI does without these limitations. The scenario does not try to simulate history as only the first turn is locked. Personally, I think the constraints give the players more of a crisis-drama event in the center. Having the German player pulling back his entire front and completely checking the Bagration offensive on the first turn wouldn't do the operation justice and is boring. Its easy enough if you want to get in the editor yourself and remove the freeze and give both sides APs at start. I could do it myself if you want and it would take less than ten minutes. I just didn't like how the unrestricted campaign played out on the first turn.

The 1941 Campaign is the one that is played 90% of the time. I have gotten almost nil feedback from the 1944 Campaign.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

quote:

My understanding is that there are no lend lease factories as they are added to the production at a fixed rate each turn. As for the pools, none of the scenarios should have aircraft available in the pools. Should there be aircraft in the pools at start? Dunno. I don't know what was sitting around historically on 22 June 1944. The Soviets aren't going to be hurting for aircraft anyways.


On the lend lease question: No replacements show up; the only thing you get from lend lease are much needed trucks and supplies.

On the question of empty pools at the start, I am aware that none of the scenarios start with anything in the pools. I bought the original War in Russia from Babbages in 1985 and have played all the successors. But I couldn't call Gary up and say, "Hey dude, here is why you should start with equipment in the pools."

So this is my opportunity.

Scenario start is a snapshot in time. Theoretically there was action before start and it should imitate the action that follows. The proposed equipment in the pools represents production from months previous to start in the supply chain, that is not yet delivered to the units. The design decision to start with with all pools empty is assuming that every single item was magically delivered to active units in the pre-game logistical model. A model which the games logistical system can not duplicate.

You know what the equipment status of active units was from historical records. You know how many type xxxx were being produced from the same source. What I doubt is known is how many were in the supply chain on start date. Even if that is known, what I am suggesting is that it would be positive for game purposes to put x weeks production in the pools before start. It would allow the computers model of the supply chain to start immediately instead of waiting for production to build up.

On the AP question: Yes but, I'm not Stalin/Zukhov whoever it is in the COC the player represents. I want to change things, and the game won't let me. This is a game. It should simulate history not try to repeat it. If it is not fun people will stop playing.

There are non-fun aspects to the 44 Grand Campaign. I've tried to list the ones I noticed and suggests improvements. My guess is people don't play this campaign very often.

I'm about to go on a radical downsizing adventure to reshape the Red Army.



_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
Sabre 21's perpetual arch-nemisis

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 8
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 11/5/2011 6:37:39 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline
quote:

. I have gotten almost nil feedback from the 1944 Campaign


Glad I can help, found another possible bug. The 2nd Polish Army is still frozen on turn 14, I thought maybe taking Warsaw would do the trick, but didn't help.

You are right about not being able to move the whole army; I just disbanded the 3rd Baltic Front, and have most of three other fronts just sitting on the RR.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 9
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 11/5/2011 9:37:08 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21570
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
From the rules:

The Soviet
capture of Warsaw or Lublin will result in
the creation of the Soviet 2nd Polish Army
headquarters unit and attached units that
will appear east of Brest Litovsk in the
vicinity of hex X56, Y68. The 2nd Polish Army
will be frozen for 22 turns after arrival. In
addition the Soviet Polish 1st Army will arrive
through the normal reinforcement process.


When you mouse over the units how many turns does it show the units are frozen for?

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 10
Frozen8 - 11/6/2011 6:58:08 AM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline
Their frozen for 8 more turns. I never noticed that the frozen status showed on mouse over.

Thanks Joel




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 11/8/2011 4:44:14 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline
quote:

I've found these "Factories" and so I will fix the 44 Campaign appropriately and so "the spice shall flow."


I finished the 44GC, was looking at the 43 campaign and the lend lease factories are missing there as well.

They are in the 42 campaign though.

(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 12
RE: Soviet 44 GC - 11/9/2011 12:17:22 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21570
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
So did the game seem to be following the rules re the 22 turn freeze on the Polish Army?

As for lend lease in 43, I see the factories in my latest copy of the 43 scenario when I load the editor, but the items are not showing up on the production screen. I see they are listed as neutral in the location data instead of Soviet like in 42, so that's probably the issue. We'll fix it. Thanks for the report.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 13
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