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RE: East Front Map - 4/24/2012 10:09:07 PM   
Panama


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Right on all points. It's a battle with yourself. Just because something wasn't defended historically doesn't mean it had no defensive signifigance. The poor sap might have been running for his life and didn't have time to do any defending.

I've done away entirely with wadis/dry rivers. When was the river dry? All the time? In the summer?. Was it bank full spring and fall? And what is the cut off for arid?

Then there's the, 'what constitutes a mountain'? A 100 square mile plateau can be at 10,000 feet with a 500 foot hill smack in the middle. Altitude 10,500 feet. But it's not a mountain is it? I tried to use the a military definition of anything over 2000 feet with a slope greater than 45 degrees is no longer a hill. But i only have a cheap map to go by so a lot of this thing was subjective at best. Otherwise it never gets done and your stalled at what is a forest and what is a woods.

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Post #: 31
RE: East Front Map - 4/25/2012 12:38:32 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


I've done away entirely with wadis/dry rivers. When was the river dry? All the time? In the summer?. Was it bank full spring and fall?


I tend to just the opposite view. The volume of water isn't necessarily the most important aspect of a river. Except in flat country, they usually cut or flow through a canyon, and it's that canyon, and the high ground it offers to the defender on the opposite bank that is their most important attribute (unless we're talking the Don or something). Even with something like the Meuse, the critical factor in the crossings was the high ground and who controlled it as much as the river itself.

So viewed in that way, a wadi is essentially a river where there's either no water or usually so little as to make no difference. Something like the Litani in Southern Lebanon, for example, while a militarily significant obstacle, isn't one on account of its usually quite modest flow. Nevertheless, it essentially poses problems similar to the Meuse at Sedan. The attacker has to be driven off the heights, and water-filled or not, the jumble of rocks at the bottom has to be bridged before vehicles can be brought over. Militarily, it poses the same difficulties.

So I've actually replaced the tile for 'canal' with the tile for 'wadi' and gone over to just using 'canals' for wadis significant enough to offer the same military problems that most rivers do.
quote:



Then there's the, 'what constitutes a mountain'? A 100 square mile plateau can be at 10,000 feet with a 500 foot hill smack in the middle. Altitude 10,500 feet. But it's not a mountain is it? I tried to use the a military definition of anything over 2000 feet with a slope greater than 45 degrees is no longer a hill. But i only have a cheap map to go by so a lot of this thing was subjective at best. Otherwise it never gets done and your stalled at what is a forest and what is a woods.


I ignore the objective altitude completely -- I'm solely interested in the change from the surrounding terrain. Things can vary, but generally I go with 'mountain' if it's fairly steeply pitched, higher than any adjacent terrain except perhaps for a knife-edge ridge line, and at least 600 meters higher than most of the surrounding country.

Subjectively, I see a 'hill' as something that is of significant value to the defender and/or hard to drive up. A 'mountain' is something where the prospective attacker goes 'oh God.'

It's all extremely relative. When I visited Gettysburg, I was astonished at Cemetery 'Ridge.' Around where I live, that would qualify as unusually flat. It's perceptibly sloped -- but that's about all you can say for it. Make that a hill or an escarpment and 80% of the land within thirty miles of here would qualify as worse. Then what do I do with the actual hills? Make them mountains? Mount Tamalpais, I suppose, becomes Alpine -- which is ridiculous.

Then too, a lot of terrain simply doesn't match the choices the TOAW tiles offer. If, for example, you ever drive across Northern Nevada, it consists of chains of high mountains interwoven with flat valleys that are perhaps a mile or two across.

Now, assuming one was going with the grain of the valley, one could drive cross country at a good clip in a military vehicle -- certainly higher than any movement rate OPART will yield.

At the same time, any defender would have his choice of formidable defensive positions. From that point of view, the terrain is not just hill, but mountain. A troop of Boy Scouts with a heavy mortar and enough shells could stand off a battalion trying to cross those valleys.

Now, at 2.5 km per hex, you could probably distinguish the flats from the mountains easily enough (although I'm trying to picture the setting for a scenario involving Northern Nevada and done at 2.5 km/hex). However, certainly at 10 km per hex and above, most hexes are going to merge both the 'flat' and the 'mountain.'

So whaddaya do? You should be able to move across most hexes as if they were plain terrain -- but you should be able to defend them like they're mountains. Put secondary 'roads' in every hex?

There isn't a completely satisfactory answer.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 4/25/2012 12:48:38 AM >


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Post #: 32
RE: East Front Map - 5/28/2012 5:11:43 PM   
Panama


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Except for the southeast area by the Black Sea and a small spot around Leningrad the map is fairly done. Need more place names. Lots more.

Now the question is, how far north? With the current allowed map size I can get to about 66 degrees north. 13 hexes or so short of Kandalaksha. If 3.5 ever gets released before my death it won't matter but my confidence is not high in that respect given the lack of response to information requests by scenario designers.




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Post #: 33
RE: East Front Map - 6/6/2012 3:51:09 AM   
Panama


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The north is particularly difficult to map what with all of the lakes.






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Post #: 34
RE: East Front Map - 8/4/2012 10:47:56 PM   
Grognard


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I also have the complete suite of these maps (took a day to burn them to disk(s) - in order).
Ever since I played Piero's "Barbarossa - Tactical" for COW I have wanted to do my own map, largely for the reason stated above - because I wanted to.
The main difference (aside from my own interpretations of terrain) will be the scale. Piero did his map at - 8 km/hex - and used a 10 km scale ingame. He said in his briefing this was to simulate supply and transportation difficulties.
I really like this reasoning conceptually because of the chronic Soviet Mech/Motor maintenance issues early on and the Axis supply nightmare over largely country roads/trails/tracks. Also, while the game simulates tactical movement using hex conversion I feel this adds to that realism a tad.
I have resources and will research travel times/supply issues diligently. But your feedback on "the" appropriate scale would be cool too.

P.S. I cannot complete this scenario until the 2,000 unit cap is raised. Maybe RL will stop beating me to death in time for 3.5

Danke und Prosit

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Post #: 35
RE: East Front Map - 8/5/2012 8:28:05 AM   
Robin le guetteur


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You are doing a very impressive work, Panama.

May I ask you to try your map with my graphic mod and post the result here ? I am curious to see the result and check if I should manage some change on my mod for such a map.

Thanks by advance

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Post #: 36
RE: East Front Map - 8/5/2012 4:32:34 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Robin le guetteur

You are doing a very impressive work, Panama.

May I ask you to try your map with my graphic mod and post the result here ? I am curious to see the result and check if I should manage some change on my mod for such a map.

Thanks by advance



Not possible. It would not look correct. The map is done with .png and some of the terrain is custom for this scenario only. I might use parts of others .png terrain mods when the map is complete but because of the custom terrain I would be unable to use all of any terrain mods.

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Post #: 37
RE: East Front Map - 8/5/2012 4:39:57 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard

I also have the complete suite of these maps (took a day to burn them to disk(s) - in order).
Ever since I played Piero's "Barbarossa - Tactical" for COW I have wanted to do my own map, largely for the reason stated above - because I wanted to.
The main difference (aside from my own interpretations of terrain) will be the scale. Piero did his map at - 8 km/hex - and used a 10 km scale ingame. He said in his briefing this was to simulate supply and transportation difficulties.
I really like this reasoning conceptually because of the chronic Soviet Mech/Motor maintenance issues early on and the Axis supply nightmare over largely country roads/trails/tracks. Also, while the game simulates tactical movement using hex conversion I feel this adds to that realism a tad.
I have resources and will research travel times/supply issues diligently. But your feedback on "the" appropriate scale would be cool too.

P.S. I cannot complete this scenario until the 2,000 unit cap is raised. Maybe RL will stop beating me to death in time for 3.5

Danke und Prosit


In an igougo environment 'the' appropriate scale would be tactical with one hour game turns. That way some of the strange things that happen would be minimized. However, the campaign would take longer to play than the time between the beginning of WWI and the end of WWII.

Because so many aspects of a scenario are subjective I don't know if there is any perfect scale. It would vary by individual.

The problem with igougo is one of time and space. How do you make one person moving while the other sits and does nothing make sense? You can't. Impossible. Not with igougo. So you accept this and make this system work it's best.

Norm did his best with TOAW. While some things do not remotely exibit logic most things do come close. Combat is separated from movement and all units of the moving side must adhere to the same time line so that all reason is not thrown out the window as in WiTE. However, even here that are problems with turn burn. How can a combat that takes an entire week to conclude also make a second combat 1000 kilometers away take the exact same amount of time to conclude regardless of any other conditions?

There is no perfect scale, neither time nor distance. It's what you want the scenario to accomplish that matters. Maybe that's why GG threw time and distance out with WiTE, so he could make it less of a thinking game and more of a doing game.

< Message edited by Panama -- 8/5/2012 5:06:56 PM >

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RE: East Front Map - 8/6/2012 7:10:25 AM   
Grognard


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quote:

In an igougo environment 'the' appropriate scale would be tactical with one hour game turns.
etc

Please forgive if my post was not clear. I meant what map scale less than 10 km/hex with a game scale of 10 km/hex.
My question assumes a game scale of 10 km/hex and asks what map scale < 10 might be appropriate to simulate travel/supply issues for this scenario only. (Barbarossa north to south - through the first winter counteroffensive)
Again -
quote:

Piero did his map at - 8 km/hex - and used a 10 km scale ingame.

I'm thinking of a range from 7.5 to 9.5 km/hex when I create the map and plug it into the scenario at 10 km/hex.
This would attenuate travel and supply by the relative percentage between map scale and game scale and IMO add to realism a bit.
After diligent research I will arrive at a scale that suits me but I would welcome any forum feedback.

Thanks again


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RE: East Front Map - 8/6/2012 7:33:01 AM   
Telumar


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There are other tools to achieve the same effect(s) you are looking for and these will let you "keep" the original map scale:

- Movement Bias
- Supply Radius
- Enemy Hex Conversion Rate
- Supply Cost for Movement
- Radiness cost for Movement

See chapter XII of the 'What's new' doc for TOAW 3.4

At the time Piero did his Barbarossa these parameters didn't exist yet (except Movement Bias and Supply Radius).

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RE: East Front Map - 8/11/2012 2:51:19 PM   
Panama


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This is all I can do under 3.4






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RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 3:48:58 AM   
BigDuke66


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Is there enough room to expand the map to the west to include Berlin?

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RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 4:08:11 AM   
Panama


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Under 3.5 you could include the U.S. East Coast.

Just kidding. With 3.4, no. It's as far east and west as it can go. With 3.5 you might get in all of Western Europe besides what is already done.

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Post #: 43
RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 5:58:47 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Under 3.5 you could include the U.S. East Coast.

Just kidding. With 3.4, no. It's as far east and west as it can go. With 3.5 you might get in all of Western Europe besides what is already done.

...speaking of 3.5! Perhaps a release around x-mas? The 'Schwerpunkt Kharkov - The four battles' won't be started before the 3.5 :/

Klink, Oberst

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RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 11:07:28 AM   
Jo van der Pluym


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

...speaking of 3.5! Perhaps a release around x-mas? T

Klink, Oberst


Which year?

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Post #: 45
RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 9:13:54 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Because so many aspects of a scenario are subjective I don't know if there is any perfect scale. It would vary by individual.


But some scales make more sense for some campaigns than others.

As it is a major land campaign in which small scale operations blur into irrelevance across the vast span of space and time, I'd say a scenario covering the whole of the East Front is best set at 25-50km per hex. Probably the most interesting and innovative scenario I've played on the subject is Bob Cross' at the latter scale. Getting out of the largely irrelevant detail of the individual units engaged in the campaign, Bob is able to focus on the factors that were actually decisive. It feels right, in a way that none of the more detailed scenarios on the subject have ever done.

Of course, since I'm currently working on a conversion of a scenario from 50km to 25km per hex, perhaps I should keep quiet about this.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 10/1/2012 9:16:37 PM >


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RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 9:15:06 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

There are other tools to achieve the same effect(s) you are looking for and these will let you "keep" the original map scale:

- Movement Bias
- Supply Radius
- Enemy Hex Conversion Rate
- Supply Cost for Movement
- Radiness cost for Movement

See chapter XII of the 'What's new' doc for TOAW 3.4

At the time Piero did his Barbarossa these parameters didn't exist yet (except Movement Bias and Supply Radius).


Don't forget artillery range and unit density.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 9:26:15 PM   
ogar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

There are other tools to achieve the same effect(s) you are looking for and these will let you "keep" the original map scale:

- Movement Bias
- Supply Radius
- Enemy Hex Conversion Rate
- Supply Cost for Movement
- Radiness cost for Movement

See chapter XII of the 'What's new' doc for TOAW 3.4

At the time Piero did his Barbarossa these parameters didn't exist yet (except Movement Bias and Supply Radius).


Don't forget artillery range and unit density.



What ?!?
You don't like RR artillery being able to annihilate air groups from 200 km away ? (/playtest humor)
Telumar is well aware of the problems with range and density and custom scaling. And how to adjust for them.
But then again, that's Telumar, other designers can benefit from your and his pointers.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/1/2012 10:08:09 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

What ?!?
You don't like RR artillery being able to annihilate air groups from 200 km away ? (/playtest humor)


I'm more concerned about how they (I) forgot to build the last ten miles of railroad so the supplies can't get off the quayside.

quote:

But then again, that's Telumar, other designers can benefit from your and his pointers.


Yeah. As he was making a list for other people, I thought it had better be complete.

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Post #: 49
RE: East Front Map - 10/2/2012 7:25:17 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Of course, since I'm currently working on a conversion of a scenario from 50km to 25km per hex, perhaps I should keep quiet about this.


Hmmm. Sounds like Fall Grau.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/2/2012 8:06:23 PM   
BigDuke66


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I would always prefer detail over playability of course only to a certain degree.
I see this in WITE, turns too long and scale too big, 10km and half week(3 or 4 day turns) would be much better for my taste.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/2/2012 8:16:22 PM   
Telumar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Because so many aspects of a scenario are subjective I don't know if there is any perfect scale. It would vary by individual.


But some scales make more sense for some campaigns than others.

As it is a major land campaign in which small scale operations blur into irrelevance across the vast span of space and time, I'd say a scenario covering the whole of the East Front is best set at 25-50km per hex. Probably the most interesting and innovative scenario I've played on the subject is Bob Cross' at the latter scale. Getting out of the largely irrelevant detail of the individual units engaged in the campaign, Bob is able to focus on the factors that were actually decisive. It feels right, in a way that none of the more detailed scenarios on the subject have ever done.



Don't get me wrong, the scenario models everything fine and i especially like the Soviet replacements/manpower and lend/lease mechanics, but what Bob's scenario doesn't do for me, and i think i speak for quite some people, is immersion. And i am pretty sure it's the scale.

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Of course, since I'm currently working on a conversion of a scenario from 50km to 25km per hex, perhaps I should keep quiet about this.


That would not be Bob's Soviet Union...? Pity.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/3/2012 1:05:39 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Don't get me wrong, the scenario models everything fine and i especially like the Soviet replacements/manpower and lend/lease mechanics, but what Bob's scenario doesn't do for me, and i think i speak for quite some people, is immersion. And i am pretty sure it's the scale.


I agree with this. The scenario is explicitly stated to be "beer & pretzel" scale - in other words, simple fun was the first priority. I expected that there was a need for such a treatment - just as there is a need for the monsters. But that doesn't mean that the design was simple. On the contrary, it's one of the most sophisticated designs I've ever made. You have to get so much stuff right for a Barbarossa scenario to work, regardless of scale. As best as I can tell, mine does.

The issue I have with the bigger ones is that they usually don't seem to work very well, for an assortment of reasons. I don't see any fundamental reason why someone can't get it right, though.

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Post #: 53
RE: East Front Map - 10/4/2012 4:57:06 PM   
Telumar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


[...] But that doesn't mean that the design was simple. On the contrary, it's one of the most sophisticated designs I've ever made. You have to get so much stuff right for a Barbarossa scenario to work, regardless of scale. As best as I can tell, mine does.

The issue I have with the bigger ones is that they usually don't seem to work very well, for an assortment of reasons. I don't see any fundamental reason why someone can't get it right, though.


That's why i keep pointing other designers to your work for all Barbarossa/Ostfront designs..

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RE: East Front Map - 10/6/2012 11:43:47 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Hmmm. Sounds like Fall Grau.


Sh. It's a well-kept secret (since only about five people ever read the TDG forums).

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RE: East Front Map - 10/6/2012 11:55:05 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The issue I have with the bigger ones is that they usually don't seem to work very well, for an assortment of reasons. I don't see any fundamental reason why someone can't get it right, though.


Two reasons why it is unlikely a scenario at this scale will ever really work in this sense;
a) the amount of work required increases exponentially with the scale. For a scenario to work properly, you will need to go through multiple playtest cycles. The more complex the scenario, the more playtests are needed to explore a suitable range of possible outcomes. At the same time, if you go down a hex scale you will likely add more units whilst increasing the number of turns, so dramatically lengthening the amount of time needed for playtest.
b) To co-ordinate 2,000 pieces over a front of a couple of hundred hexes- and to keep their actions consistent turn to turn- is an incredibly mentally taxing exercise. People talk about chugging through one turn of these scenarios in 3-6 hours. That's less than six seconds per piece. There's a reason why real world commanders have much smaller hierarchies to deal with, and why traditional wargames usually stick to a few dozen pieces. Perhaps one could play these games intelligently if it was a full-time job (and with an extensive set of notes on what your operational plans were in each sector). But in your downtime after work in the evening? You'll just wind up shuffling everything forward blindly.

Of course, for most designers, the goal is not necessarily a perfect finished product. So this is not an exhortation to instantly stop working on anything in particular.

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Post #: 56
RE: East Front Map - 10/7/2012 8:01:47 PM   
Foggy

 

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Be happy to play test - one of my favorite scens

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RE: East Front Map - 10/7/2012 11:07:39 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Foggy

Be happy to play test - one of my favorite scens


Assuming this is directed at me- I'm doing two designer tests at the moment. It looks like almost everything is fine but I need to be sure of balance.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/8/2012 12:26:17 PM   
Foggy

 

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Yes - directed to you I've played 4 times - the Axis has never won! My last game against Jason I took the head on approach
and bullied my way thru the East Coast. Amazing losses on both sides - really reflects the terrain and the difficulty of conquering the US accross the ocean. Great scen - almost up to DM's standards

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RE: East Front Map - 10/8/2012 9:51:24 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Foggy

Great scen - almost up to DM's standards


Must... not... start flame war...

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