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East Front Map - 10/27/2011 1:23:15 AM   
Panama


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Five months later. Ugh. I will be sooo glad when this is done. 10km per hex.






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< Message edited by Panama -- 10/27/2011 1:25:13 AM >
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RE: East Front Map - 10/27/2011 6:36:51 AM   
polarenper


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I know that feeling!

Nice work though. Looks great!


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RE: East Front Map - 10/27/2011 3:57:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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It really does look well made. The terrain, particularly in the North, looks much more appropriately severe than in earlier works I've seen.

I'm curious about the technique, though. This is the second half-finished map I've seen posted like this, where the map maker fully completes each hex before moving to the next. My practice has always been to do a specific tile over the entire map before moving on to the next tile. So, I do all the coastline first, then all the cities, then all the rivers, etc. I just find it easier - but it may be six of one, half-a-dozen of another. I wonder what the breakdown of the whole map-making community would be on that?

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RE: East Front Map - 10/27/2011 8:00:13 PM   
Telumar


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You're insane.. but i like that! When that thing is done and you're back from convalescent care.. what are your plans with it? You didn't want to use the FitE map, which is also at 10 km per hex - why?

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RE: East Front Map - 10/27/2011 10:57:00 PM   
Panama


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Plans? Some East Front scenarios and/or the whole campaign. Yeah, it's been done. But not like I want to see it. I thought about the FitE map and editing some stuff on it but decided to take my own advice. If you don't like it then do it yourself.

I'm using the Army Map Service set from the U of Texas site. Over 240 separate topo maps stitched together using Paint Shop Pro into 22 or so separate sections grided and marked using MS Paint and putdown in the editor. Vast majority Red Army wartime with some German thrown in compiled by the U.S. Corps of Engineers in 1950 and 1951. Or something like that. At least that's what it says on the maps. Been doing research and gathering 'stuff' for a couple years now. Should be done with it in the spring. Just not sure which year.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/28/2011 3:29:05 PM   
USXpat

 

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Very nice - great detail and sounds like you went through hell and high water to get the maps and resources set up. An enormous amount of work!

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RE: East Front Map - 10/28/2011 6:03:00 PM   
Panama


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Thanks guys.

The OOB should be lots of fun too.

BTW, my sincere and lasting thanks to Curt Chambers, maker of Opart Design and Debug Utility (ODD). This would have been near impossible without that great program.

< Message edited by Panama -- 10/28/2011 6:06:12 PM >

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RE: East Front Map - 10/28/2011 10:48:27 PM   
Panama


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Section NM38. Don Great Bend and Stalingrad. Grid applied. Ready for terrain features to be drawn.






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RE: East Front Map - 10/28/2011 11:08:37 PM   
tigersqn


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Damn!! I think I just drooled all over my computer.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/29/2011 3:21:20 AM   
ogar

 

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It really does look very good. And that's looking at these tiny images, not at the huge monster you've built. Congratulations. All that effort has turned out very well.

Good luck with OOB research.

I truly hope you have backed this baby up, and tested recovering from back-up.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/29/2011 9:11:12 PM   
LLv34_Snefens


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Looks good.

I'm sure you already know this, but the NM38 map you posted shows a widened Don, the Tsimlyansk Reservoir. The dam forming the reservoir wasn't completed until 1952 though.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/29/2011 9:29:13 PM   
LLv34_Snefens


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BTW, if you haven't completed that section SW of Leningrad because you lack this particular area, I can send a scan of German maps.

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RE: East Front Map - 10/29/2011 11:46:35 PM   
Panama


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Any post war res. is filled with hashmarks so the original terrain is still visible. The area around Oranienbaum shouldn't be a problem. I can use any topo map to fill that in. But thanks for the offer.

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RE: East Front Map - 11/5/2011 4:47:21 PM   
Panama


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About the Dnepr at Kanev. I'm believe there was a railroad bridge there during the war. And in real life a RR bridge can be used as a road bridge. Just not in TOAW for some reason.

In any event, I've seen people place a road bridge there. However, I've seen maps where a road bridge would appear to be and maps where a road bridge is not there, but a ferry. So I'm kind of confused as to whether or not there really was a road bridge at Kanev or if it was merely a ferry and later a pontoon bridge was placed. If a ferry/pontoon bridge then the player would be forced to leave an engineer unit there to continue to move supplies and units across at that point on the Dnepr.

Does anyone have definative information for a permanent road bridge spanning the Dnepr at Kanev?

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RE: East Front Map - 11/5/2011 5:22:09 PM   
Telumar


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GoranW over at the War in the East forum might be able to help you. He's some kind of living Heeres-Kartenamt. :)

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RE: East Front Map - 11/5/2011 6:44:57 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

GoranW over at the War in the East forum might be able to help you. He's some kind of living Heeres-Kartenamt. :)


Ok. Thanks.

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RE: East Front Map - 11/5/2011 9:40:25 PM   
HPT KUNZ

 

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Excellent work, Panama!

You are probably aware of the Eastern European topo maps online from the tu library in Austin:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/eastern_europe/

1:250,000 topo, forests, roads, villages, RR etc.
From 1935-40 topo maps of the General Staff, Red Army, revised 1944-45 from aerial photos, printed in English 1947 by the US Army Corps of Engineers.
For example, the Dnepr bend at Kiev is still undamed, as is the Dnepr at Dneprodzherzhinsk.

Looking forward to downloading your "final edition" (quotations since these are never finished.

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RE: East Front Map - 12/3/2011 11:46:29 AM   
Telumar


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Mr. Panama, anything new from the map room? How's it going?


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RE: East Front Map - 12/14/2011 11:08:22 PM   
Panama


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So far




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RE: East Front Map - 12/31/2011 10:49:28 AM   
l0ww

 

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Oh my goodness, It just looks gorgeous. Great work, Panama.

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RE: East Front Map - 1/26/2012 3:56:46 AM   
docgaun

 

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Seriously.. its very very delicious;)

We are working on a new map for Fite, and following your exampel seems to be the right way to go.. but its a demanding job.

I allmost wished it would fit Fite, but i can see that i wont ;/

Following your progress, let me know how it goes

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RE: East Front Map - 1/26/2012 4:41:08 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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I am glad about the coincidence...

You guys know that Goran once created a 6km/hex Barbarossa map and I have been trying to contact him, because the map can be used for my current project Kiev'43! Does anybody know where he is?

Here is a snap of his map in the Kiev area of the operations in November/December 1943.

Klink, Oberst




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RE: East Front Map - 1/27/2012 12:03:31 AM   
Panama


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I dunno Klink dude. I'd be more likely to make my own. There seem to be a lot more topo maps available now with more detail. I'm really liking the topo maps at the U of T. How you translate all those lines from print to map will, of course, be different than how someone else might. That's why I'd make my own. For instance, I don't use crop hexes. They are too transitory and it's too hard to say if someplace really had a plowed field there or not 70 years ago. So I choose to leave them out.

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RE: East Front Map - 1/27/2012 12:10:11 AM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun

Seriously.. its very very delicious;)

We are working on a new map for Fite, and following your exampel seems to be the right way to go.. but its a demanding job.

I allmost wished it would fit Fite, but i can see that i wont ;/

Following your progress, let me know how it goes


Thanks. I'm kinda taking it slow because there's a patch coming 'soon' and I have absolutely no idea what all will be done with it. I would hate to have a nearly finished product only to find the new patch trashed most of the work. I wish there was more info available but for some reason it's all hush hush top secret I'll have to kill you if I tell you.

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RE: East Front Map - 1/27/2012 10:59:01 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun

Seriously.. its very very delicious;)

We are working on a new map for Fite, and following your exampel seems to be the right way to go.. but its a demanding job.

I allmost wished it would fit Fite, but i can see that i wont ;/

Following your progress, let me know how it goes


Thanks. I'm kinda taking it slow because there's a patch coming 'soon' and I have absolutely no idea what all will be done with it. I would hate to have a nearly finished product only to find the new patch trashed most of the work. I wish there was more info available but for some reason it's all hush hush top secret I'll have to kill you if I tell you.


Belay that last comment. Thank you Mr. Cross. Now I can get back to work.

< Message edited by Panama -- 1/27/2012 11:02:11 PM >

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RE: East Front Map - 1/27/2012 11:10:25 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Kamerad,

I think it's quite OK'ish regarding the crop fields, most maps tend to be just 'open' and let's face it, how open can a countryside be, 'cept for the desert, uh? Besides, it is the Ukraine, the breadbasket of Uncle Joe. Not that I am too lazy to create maps, but what's there can be used. I got the OK of the Master himself now. Behold and get ready for an operational combat series of the STALAG 13 design team :)

Klink, Oberst

And JA, what's the grapevine 'bout 3.5, eh?

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 1/27/2012 11:11:53 PM >


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Visit the Gefechtsstand!

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RE: East Front Map - 1/28/2012 3:01:49 AM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink



And JA, what's the grapevine 'bout 3.5, eh?




Read between the lines. Or maybe just read the lines. Post #1748. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1540287&mpage=59#



12.1.1 More units per force (10,000).
12.1.2 More formations per force (1,000).

ROFLMAO

< Message edited by Panama -- 1/28/2012 3:14:38 AM >

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RE: East Front Map - 1/28/2012 8:32:40 PM   
USXpat

 

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Oh my goodness... heh... I think that would just about do it.  Hopefully the world doesn't end for a few more years...

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RE: East Front Map - 4/24/2012 8:35:36 PM   
Panama


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Still chugging away. Not sure what I'll do if 3.5 falls through. Out of place names long ago.






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< Message edited by Panama -- 4/24/2012 8:37:09 PM >

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RE: East Front Map - 4/24/2012 9:39:51 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It really does look well made. The terrain, particularly in the North, looks much more appropriately severe than in earlier works I've seen.

I'm curious about the technique, though. This is the second half-finished map I've seen posted like this, where the map maker fully completes each hex before moving to the next. My practice has always been to do a specific tile over the entire map before moving on to the next tile. So, I do all the coastline first, then all the cities, then all the rivers, etc. I just find it easier - but it may be six of one, half-a-dozen of another. I wonder what the breakdown of the whole map-making community would be on that?



I usually locate the points I want to be sure are on the map, and if likely to be the center of battles, well within its boundaries. I then lay in coastlines, of course. Thereafter (using your lat-long thing, thank you) I usually move in 'blobs' of seven hexes, using Google Earth.* I decide on the terrain for a given hex and its neighbors, move two hexes down, and do that hex and the five of its neighbors that weren't included in the previous blob, and so on. Naturally, one winds up making adjustments so that things are consistent between rows. One doesn't want a hex that actually has fewer trees to be light forest while its more heavily timbered neighbor is 'clear.'

Generally, I do all the terrain at once -- although often I follow rivers and wadis out a few hexes, and something like the Nile gets traced in its entirety all at once. Then too, I try to skip around to some extent, so that my criteria will at least be vaguely uniform. Whatever a 'hill' is, what's a 'hill' in Libya shouldn't be flat ground in Anatolia. This is actually kind of tricky, as in flat areas, one will tend to make really rather minor irregularities significant terrain, while in more rugged stretches, one starts saying 'well, it can't all be mountains.'

Just how rocky is 'rocky'? An area may well be sandy, but if the sand's only a few inches deep, is it militarily significant? Militarily significant enough to justify doubling the movement cost?

These and other profound questions trouble the map maker. Like, if one applies the same standards that one would use for most 'wadis' in the Western Desert, then you might as well use the 'fill' function when it comes to 'wadis' in parts of eastern Anatolia and western Iran. All hexes would be 'wadi' (and other things). Sometimes I ask myself 'what's militarily most important here?' If it's the swamp, then I'll just have to skip the rocks. The program won't let you put both in the hex at once. If we've got scattered hills that wouldn't actually impede movement but would offer excellent defensive positions then the question becomes 'are people going to be more likely to be moving through here without opposition or are they actually going to be fighting?' What's the impact of most of the hex for most of the people most of the time? A small town in a perfectly traversable plain is of problematical military significance -- anyone who tries to defend just that would be cut off and forced to surrender anyway. If that same town is a port, and amphibious landings are likely, then I'm more likely to make the terrain urban. Folks are going to have to fight their way into it.

So I evolve standards. Like, if it's not a sharp and continuous rise of at least 15 meters, it's not an escarpment. Of course, these standards are fairly arbitrary, and I evolved them as I went along, so I wind up being suspicious of what I mapped back at the beginning.

But ce la vie. If anyone's unhappy with my work, they're entitled to a full refund. Besides, I have yet to actually release a scenario, so it's academic.

*as a footnote on Google Earth, while the pictures can be very helpful, you can't trust them to be properly located. Apparently people just upload the photos and put in whatever coordinates they please. So you're at the mercy of their precision. I've been somewhere in the depths of the Sahara and clicked on a picture to see somebody's villa with swimming pool or the pyramids of Giza. There was once even a picture of what looked to be a forest river in British Columbia. Caveat Emptor.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 4/24/2012 9:52:34 PM >


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