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Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 1:30:26 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14868
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online 		Just wanted to say thanks to the many individuals that recommended this book.

I brought it with me on our family vacation and am about 2/3 through it. It's very nicely done and provides nicely researched and footnoted explanations about why things happened as they did at Midway. The author even manages to build suspense on a subject that's been analyzed and summarized to death by others.

Anyways, great book. Thanks to those that recommended it. What's next?

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RE: Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 2:10:21 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1367
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline 		I fully agree with you chickenboy, I'm about at the same point in the book and it is amazing that I find myself trying to WILL the Japanese players to do something different, to shake them out of their destiny. But alas, it doesn't work, three out of the four carriers are hit and burning... as will be the forth soon... Hal

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Post #: 2
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 4:29:46 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1587
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, the book definitely shows the differences between IJN and USN carrier operations. Excellent read and a must for any naval air historian.

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Capt. Cliff

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Post #: 3
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 4:50:36 PM   
MateDow


Posts: 175
Joined: 8/6/2002
Status: offline 		If you liked Shattered Sword, Tully's book on the Battle of Surigao Strait is good.

There are some questions about whether he used to many Japanese sources, but I liked the time/space analysis portion where he breaks down why he thinks that happened and in what order. Similar to that with the Shattered Sword.

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Post #: 4
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 7:20:20 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9084
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: online 		I wish that the same level of detail could be applied to Coral Sea and the CV Battles around Guadalcanal.

EDIT: This is what I get for typing too fast.



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 10/23/2011 10:27:29 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 8:28:34 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 10777
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I was the same level of detail could be applied to Coral Sea and the CV Battles around Guadalcanal.

Warspite1

I assume you meant wish not was; if so then amen to that. The whole Guadalcanal campaign is worthy of the full Parshall and Tully treatment; who did what?, when?, why? A comprehensive, look at what options the commanders of each side had, what limitations they worked under etc

I cannot find a book that comes even close - a real shame for such a worthy subject.

P.S I may have said this once or twice before but Shattered Sword is a stonking book - written the way every WWII book should be written.




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Post #: 6
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 9:34:08 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14868
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

P.S I may have said this once or twice before but Shattered Sword is a stonking book - written the way every WWII book should be written.



You may have said it, but we have no idea what 'stonking' meant then or now.

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Post #: 7
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/23/2011 11:01:52 PM   
Knyvet


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Wow wierd timing - I also bought the book a few weeks ago based on forum comments and just finished it about 30 minutes ago. Awesome book! Thanks all.

< Message edited by Knyvet -- 10/23/2011 11:03:36 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 12:17:35 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 3640
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: vermont
Status: offline 		I found "Shattered Sword" the most illuminating book on carrier operations I have ever read. And yes, the writing is so good that the story does indeed build towards a suspenseful climax that I already knew but somehow remained suspenseful. But then again maybe it just builds to a climax that was inevitable once the KB was committed to such a terrible plan. It almost seems so.

Quite some years ago I read a book called "Decision at Sea: The Naval Battle of Guadalcanal" (I think) by Eric Hammel which seemed to do a similar job recounting those 3 days in November 1942 that finally spelled doom for Imperial Japan's hopes for victory on that island. I also read "Starvation Island" by the same author that covered the Guadalcanal Battle more from the Marines' point of view but also dealt with the battles of Savo Island and Cape Esperance. I enjoyed reading that one too but not quite so much as "Decision". There was a third book to what turns out to be a trilogy: "Guadalcanal: The Carrier Battles" (I think); which I never got around to buying and reading. Needless to say the topic seems to be just what some here are calling for....

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Post #: 9
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 7:03:47 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 10777
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

P.S I may have said this once or twice before but Shattered Sword is a stonking book - written the way every WWII book should be written.



You may have said it, but we have no idea what 'stonking' meant then or now.
Warspite1

In which case, allow me to enlighten you old boy :

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stonking


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England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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Post #: 10
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 10:21:12 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		Three times I have paid homage to Shattered Sword. Best book on the Pacific War I have ever read.

I like the part where he describes time restraints on flight preperations but assures the reader that the "exciting part" is just around the corner!

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Post #: 11
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 3:47:45 PM   
Miller


Posts: 1456
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		An interesting "what if" scenario it mentions is if the IJN had pulled their finger out and got Zuikaku into the action with an airgroup (it reckons) of 25F, 17DB and 14TB, would the overall result have been any different?

I predict it would have a 2:1 loss for the Japs, with maybe one more badly damaged on each side..........

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Post #: 12
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 7:39:10 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14868
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

An interesting "what if" scenario it mentions is if the IJN had pulled their finger out and got Zuikaku into the action with an airgroup (it reckons) of 25F, 17DB and 14TB, would the overall result have been any different?

I predict it would have a 2:1 loss for the Japs, with maybe one more badly damaged on each side..........


Interesting what if, Miller. I'll do you one further: what if Hosho and Junyo had not been detailed to the Aleutians sidelight, but had (also) been attached to the other 5 (including Zuikaku) carriers?

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Post #: 13
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 10:49:45 PM   
Miller


Posts: 1456
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

An interesting "what if" scenario it mentions is if the IJN had pulled their finger out and got Zuikaku into the action with an airgroup (it reckons) of 25F, 17DB and 14TB, would the overall result have been any different?

I predict it would have a 2:1 loss for the Japs, with maybe one more badly damaged on each side..........


Interesting what if, Miller. I'll do you one further: what if Hosho and Junyo had not been detailed to the Aleutians sidelight, but had (also) been attached to the other 5 (including Zuikaku) carriers?


I think they were considered too slow to include and their airgroups were under strength, Junyo had 18F and 15DB whilst Hosho only 8 old biplane TB. Zuiho and Ryujo would have been better bets, 24F and 30TB between them and fast enough to keep up with the KB.

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Post #: 14
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 10:51:21 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9084
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I found "Shattered Sword" the most illuminating book on carrier operations I have ever read. And yes, the writing is so good that the story does indeed build towards a suspenseful climax that I already knew but somehow remained suspenseful. But then again maybe it just builds to a climax that was inevitable once the KB was committed to such a terrible plan. It almost seems so.

Quite some years ago I read a book called "Decision at Sea: The Naval Battle of Guadalcanal" (I think) by Eric Hammel which seemed to do a similar job recounting those 3 days in November 1942 that finally spelled doom for Imperial Japan's hopes for victory on that island. I also read "Starvation Island" by the same author that covered the Guadalcanal Battle more from the Marines' point of view but also dealt with the battles of Savo Island and Cape Esperance. I enjoyed reading that one too but not quite so much as "Decision". There was a third book to what turns out to be a trilogy: "Guadalcanal: The Carrier Battles" (I think); which I never got around to buying and reading. Needless to say the topic seems to be just what some here are calling for....


Hammel's books are EXCELLENT but it still doesn't have the freshness that Shattered brought with it.



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Post #: 15
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/24/2011 11:34:23 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 1936
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline







quote:

In which case, allow me to enlighten you old boy :

I can't wait to use my new word!

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Post #: 16
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/25/2011 6:46:45 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 10777
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour









quote:

In which case, allow me to enlighten you old boy :

I can't wait to use my new word!


Warspite1

Word Up


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/25/2011 6:47:28 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/26/2011 5:38:02 AM   
Pascal


Posts: 1634
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: in 'Haboob' country weekdays; the OC on w/ends
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I was the same level of detail could be applied to Coral Sea and the CV Battles around Guadalcanal.

Warspite1

I assume you meant wish not was; if so then amen to that. The whole Guadalcanal campaign is worthy of the full Parshall and Tully treatment; who did what?, when?, why? A comprehensive, look at what options the commanders of each side had, what limitations they worked under etc

I cannot find a book that comes even close - a real shame for such a worthy subject.

P.S I may have said this once or twice before but Shattered Sword is a stonking book - written the way every WWII book should be written.



Black-Shoe Carrier Admiral by Lundstrom is a good try for the American side on the period.

Unfortunately, no one has translated into English the volumes of the official Japanese history of the war except for the part about New Guinea (you can get this for free on the Australian War Memorial website). There are 125 or so volumes with a wealth of detail, maps, etc. This would be quite a task but well worth it for a better view 'from the other side of the hill'....


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Post #: 18
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/26/2011 6:18:32 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9084
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: online 		I have the 15 Volumes of Morrision and would gladly invest in the translated Japanese History! Would be something to read.


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Post #: 19
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/28/2011 7:14:49 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 10777
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I fully agree with you chickenboy, I'm about at the same point in the book and it is amazing that I find myself trying to WILL the Japanese players to do something different, to shake them out of their destiny. But alas, it doesn't work, three out of the four carriers are hit and burning... as will be the forth soon... Hal

Warspite1

I know what you mean. I find reading about the Japanese naval battles in WWII really makes me angry. NOT because I want a different outcome (before anyone accuses me of going down that route), but partly because of the ridiculous, overly complex plans, that relied upon the enemy doing exactly what the Japanese said they would do, but more importantly the sacrificing of men and ships thanks to their seeming fascination with decoys! I have just read about the loss of Ryujo. Utterly, utterly pointless

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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Post #: 20
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/28/2011 8:30:20 PM   
Miller


Posts: 1456
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		They also made it clear that Hiryu could have fled and lived to fight another day (even after recovering the second TB strike), but of course Jap pride and hope for further vengence did not permit this, despite the fact she only had 10 serviceable strike a/c left!

Just imagine the outcomes of the Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz battles if Hiryu had also been involved...........

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Post #: 21
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/28/2011 8:35:27 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14868
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

They also made it clear that Hiryu could have fled and lived to fight another day (even after recovering the second TB strike), but of course Jap pride and hope for further vengence did not permit this, despite the fact she only had 10 serviceable strike a/c left!


Hi Miller. I'm at the point in the book just after Hiryu took 4 x 1000lb bombs to her forward sections. She's a blazing wreck and the fires are spreading. While she is able to continue steaming at 22 knots (!) for a time, when the fires asphyxiated her engineers / engine workers, she was dead in the water and still burning fiercely. The authors make it clear that she's doomed at this point-I suspect she'll be scuttled momentarily.

Perhaps you mean what would have happened to had she bolted due West after recovering her second strike (before being plastered) instead of meandering along with the rest of Nagumo's fleet to the NE? Aye-there was an option for escape at that point.

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Post #: 22
RE: Shattered Sword - 10/28/2011 10:36:41 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1367
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline 		Yes Warspite1, you get the point... it is just so sad to think of all the lives lost due to the pride of a few...enemy or not, it is frightful.... as it could happen today!!!

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Post #: 23
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