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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

 
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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 3:13:16 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front.

For instance, what does it mean for Soviet unit MPs, where he describes Mechanised units as not receiving their allocation of trucks and the men having to carry their heavy equipment and follow the AFVs on foot. This was worse than the infantry units, who at least had horse drawn wagons to carry their equipment. Tank columns having to stop every 15 mins, on the march, to make running repairs to keep the vehicles operational.


Just noticed you edited the post.

Good question regarding the MP's. My point - and I think I've reasonably modeled it well on this scenario - is that they weren't critical to get key units into position to contest the German advance. Hence I redeployed Mech Corps to the positions I think they were just 24 - 36 hours after Barbarossa and set their MP's to max. Note that Vehicle allowances have been tweaked as well - generally for the worse, much worse - and while they get into combat, they're bound to suffer the same kind of horrific losses they suffered historically.

I mean, the point is not that the AGS is stopped cold but rather than it faces a substantial opposition during the first Axis turn. Putting these corps into reserve mode and maxing out MP's seemed to me to be the simplest way to have them to react to the phasing Axis player in a meaningful way. Just having the Axis player to get honest and forgo Hasty attacks - which might lure one or more Motorized units to the fray - and "invite" him to prefer Deliberate would slow down considerably Axis progress during Turn 1.

quote:

I would be good to have some Russian language confirmation of the sources, before using it as the basis for a major scenario change


Sorry just added another edit - I would be good to have some Russian language confirmation of the sources, before using it as the basis for a major scenario change - must stop doing that.

I think one of the points that comes though clearly was the total chaos that reigned in the first few days, Kirponos was in the process of moving his HQ forward on the morning of the attack and was out of touch. The message centre left at the original HQ site was overwhelmed by the amount of signal traffic that came in. Some units responded to their pre-war deployment plans, others received multiple changes of orders, 8the Mech. had to march and counter march over the same road, perhaps some selective fixing of units might replicate some of this.

I am being dragged out to the shops and must answer a higher authority, thinking about your points.

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Post #: 31
RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 3:24:30 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I think one of the points that comes though clearly was the total chaos that reigned in the first few days, Kirponos was in the process of moving his HQ forward on the morning of the attack and was out of touch. The message centre left at the original HQ site was overwhelmed by the amount of signal traffic that came in. Some units responded to their pre-war deployment plans, others received multiple changes of orders, 8the Mech. had to march and counter march over the same road, perhaps some selective fixing of units might replicate some of this.


Hmmm, that's interesting. Fixing or just not changing their position from where they were or that. Note that units will be struck by June 22nd special rules during the Soviet logistics phase, right after Axis movement & combat phase. Their Movement Allowance will be something funny, like 8 MP's or so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I am being dragged out to the shops and must answer a higher authority, thinking about your points.


Always keep that kind of higher authorities pleased, man There's no rush at all, after the spike I did to get through the first 3 versions. Once the ball is rolling, it's all about momentum and inertia...

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 11/7/2011 3:25:00 PM >


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Post #: 32
RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 3:32:09 PM   
T-28A


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
I'm still looking forward to D. Stahel book to get more info on the actions of those German formations, which I don't think are mentioned on Kamenir's "The Bloody Triangle".

In short, they were seriously slowed by stiff resistance of the Soviet 41st Rifle Division that manned the positions of Rava-Russka fortified area (where flame-throwing French B2 were engaged), and by massive counterattacks of divisions of 4th Mech Corps (which, as we remember, was the best equipped mech corps in Ukraine and one of two best-equipped corps in Red Army). Amassed hundreds of T-34s, KVs and light tanks made opening days of Barbarossa really sad for 17th Army. For example, the especially badly mauled was 68th Infantry Division, which by the end of June 25th was considered completely disabled by Heeresgruppe Sued, and it requested OKH to bring in 4th Gebirgs Division from OKH reserve to replace the now-defunct 68th Infantry, while the latter was withdrawn to reserve.
But the 4th Mech and 6th Rifle Corps suffered very badly in the process, so, with the ongoing drama on their right flank (Lutsk - Brody - Dubno) they had to retreat from the bulge to not get encircled (btw, one of the planned variants of XIV.A.K.(mot) engagement was exactly striking south from Radziechow, on Lvov, and to cut and encircle the Lvov bulge).
But of course, these few words are unable to properly describe the massive battle in Lvov bulge, I fear.

_____________________________

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Post #: 33
RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 3:50:41 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: T-28A

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
I'm still looking forward to D. Stahel book to get more info on the actions of those German formations, which I don't think are mentioned on Kamenir's "The Bloody Triangle".

In short, they were seriously slowed by stiff resistance of the Soviet 41st Rifle Division that manned the positions of Rava-Russka fortified area (where flame-throwing French B2 were engaged), and by massive counterattacks of divisions of 4th Mech Corps (which, as we remember, was the best equipped mech corps in Ukraine and one of two best-equipped corps in Red Army). Amassed hundreds of T-34s, KVs and light tanks made opening days of Barbarossa really sad for 17th Army. For example, the especially badly mauled was 68th Infantry Division, which by the end of June 25th was considered completely disabled by Heeresgruppe Sued, and it requested OKH to bring in 4th Gebirgs Division from OKH reserve to replace the now-defunct 68th Infantry, while the latter was withdrawn to reserve.
But the 4th Mech and 6th Rifle Corps suffered very badly in the process, so, with the ongoing drama on their right flank (Lutsk - Brody - Dubno) they had to retreat from the bulge to not get encircled (btw, one of the planned variants of XIV.A.K.(mot) engagement was exactly striking south from Radziechow, on Lvov, and to cut and encircle the Lvov bulge).
But of course, these few words are unable to properly describe the massive battle in Lvov bulge, I fear.


Perhaps not, but they do really shed a lot of light on the issue. The question is, how can a German infantry division become "disabled" during GC Turn 1 given current game mechanics? A terrible result for a German infantry attack is to suffer 180 casualties (including permanent and temporary casualties).


_____________________________

Nullius in Verba since February 2013 - http://panthergames.com
-----
Life in the Internets: http://steamcommunity.com/id/mvorkosigan
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(in reply to T-28A)
Post #: 34
RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 4:05:16 PM   
T-28A


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Perhaps not, but they do really shed a lot of light on the issue. The question is, how can a German infantry division become "disabled" during GC Turn 1 given current game mechanics? A terrible result for a German infantry attack is to suffer 180 casualties (including permanent and temporary casualties).

You can't, and nobody can model this with WitE, I presume, moreover with WitE special 1st turn rules. To properly model such thing one would need at most 1-day turns and completely different combat/C3I simulation routines. But that wouldn't be the WitE anymore I like your approach of 24-36 hours deployment and reserves stance, it is probably the best way to simulate the opening days having no adequate means (engine-wise) to do so.

< Message edited by T-28A -- 11/7/2011 4:07:11 PM >


_____________________________

_________________________________________
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---Emperor Alexander III

(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 35
RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/8/2011 10:37:55 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: T-28A

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Perhaps not, but they do really shed a lot of light on the issue. The question is, how can a German infantry division become "disabled" during GC Turn 1 given current game mechanics? A terrible result for a German infantry attack is to suffer 180 casualties (including permanent and temporary casualties).

You can't, and nobody can model this with WitE, I presume, moreover with WitE special 1st turn rules. To properly model such thing one would need at most 1-day turns and completely different combat/C3I simulation routines. But that wouldn't be the WitE anymore I like your approach of 24-36 hours deployment and reserves stance, it is probably the best way to simulate the opening days having no adequate means (engine-wise) to do so.


Thank you T-28A for the thumbs up :) I think it's an avenue worth exploring. On the other hand, if there's no other way, freezing units might work, but providing a rationale for it which is compelling enough. I mean, perhaps the point is not to replicate the battles themselves, but rather, the operational situation. I think the latter might be feasible, taking some liberties with historicity.

Just let's keep reading and thinking, I'm fairly optimistic :)

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(in reply to T-28A)
Post #: 36
RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/8/2011 11:14:45 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1614
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Thank you T-28A for the thumbs up :) I think it's an avenue worth exploring. On the other hand, if there's no other way, freezing units might work, but providing a rationale for it which is compelling enough. I mean, perhaps the point is not to replicate the battles themselves, but rather, the operational situation. I think the latter might be feasible, taking some liberties with historicity.

Just let's keep reading and thinking, I'm fairly optimistic :)


I think that what you might want to replicate is, for the Soviet side, the feeling of not controlling many of your units in the early turns, either because you cannot contact them, they are unable to enact orders, or they are following other directives. On the German side there is, amid the general rush Eastwards, the occasional crunch when your units run into some of the more solid Russian units.

It depends on what credence you want to give to the contents of books like 'Bloody Triangle', as to which units are adrift and which ones are more organised. Also, which of the Russian motorised divisions are limited in transport and which tank divisions have the more unreliable and ineffective AFVs and commanders in the early turns and how you wind back to a more normal performance as the game progresses.

All of this portrays the initial Soviet disorganisation in the first days, a feature that WIR had where Soviet units plotted movement would not always go as intended, but it's a short lived effect for the beginning of the scenario.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 37
RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 5/28/2012 1:27:35 AM   
Grungar

 

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Hey think you are on to something Bletch. WitE is such a good simulation of very high level wargaming that one could actually play the game much like soivet generals used complex board games comelete with chiefs of staff to settle debates or train their operational skill..in fact zhukov considerd the wargame the best trainer for high level officers..Before the war they held 3, each with a different scenario based on the debate that was raging over how the bialstock salient could be used to attack germany if germany struck first with all thier might. one faction argued it could be foritfied and and hold the german with a counter attack to follow while the other insisted it was suicide for the nation because it was indefensible no mkatter how reinfoced it its,.. so the pices were setup according to the parameters most likely after seeing france get crushed. ie one side was give x inf divsions y tanks and aircraft and an objective of operationl imortance given in a very short timetable..one of them was the capture of riga vilnias and sulvaki. then they swiched sides and setup a different but related scenario..Its my opinion wite is the first game that can do tnat in a way to truely train our operational skill for real In fact the second wargame played was a unkraine only setup. Popov was to attack as germans against zhukov and the panzer general got his ass whooped. Much of the same issue you speak happend as a result of the game. If i remember right zhuk thought that the lovov salient was the weakness in their very powerful deployment in ukraine.His warning were unheaded and thus the drama you guys speak of here. That book you discuss sounds cool i muyst have it. play it out!
more smileys









< Message edited by Grungar -- 5/28/2012 3:34:51 AM >

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Post #: 38
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