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Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 2:32:40 PM   
dr.hal


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I'm at a loss. I know I read that the monsoon season is reflected in the game (at least I think it is) but I've not been able to track it down in the manual. I know lots of readers get annoyed when someone asks a question that is obviously in the manual and this should not be asked, but I really can't find anything on it, but I did think I saw it somewhere. Can someone help me out? What is the impact upon combat, movement, Air, and where are the zones (not on the map, like malaria, cold, etc.). thanks, Hal
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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 2:36:41 PM   
Mike Solli


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It's not in the manual. It was implemented later. Sorry, but I don't have details, but ask away. Someone will help you.

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 2:46:28 PM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I'm at a loss. I know I read that the monsoon season is reflected in the game (at least I think it is) but I've not been able to track it down in the manual. I know lots of readers get annoyed when someone asks a question that is obviously in the manual and this should not be asked, but I really can't find anything on it, but I did think I saw it somewhere. Can someone help me out? What is the impact upon combat, movement, Air, and where are the zones (not on the map, like malaria, cold, etc.). thanks, Hal


Here are my notes from the various threads:

Monsoon Effects (May 15 – Oct 15)

Actually, the initial notes on the monsoon season was off. Its confirmed by Andy not being Jan-April, but from 15th of May to the 15th of Oct.

Monsoon affects base supply in Burma region. It does not affect weather in the game.

The main bases affected are the north Burmese ones north of Mandalay and the Assam bases east of Terapo plus Akyab and Chittagong. [And all of Thailand]

The way the new restriction works is that the amount of supply a base can receive per day is X x (Port+AF+Fort) so a base that is a trail base with no main road or rail connection may have a value of 50 say it starts as port 0, af 0, fort 3 then that means the base can receive 50 x 3 or 150 tonnes of supply per day over the jungle trails.

During the monsoon season all bases are reduced to 50% of normal capacity therefore the base will only receive 75 tons per day by land.

Thus the little un-built up bases cannot sustain huge forces


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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 3:25:49 PM   
dr.hal


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Blackhorse, thanks that's a big help. In short, it is best to stock up on supply for that long period from mid May to Mid October. How does this impact the supply chain to China on the Burma road??? Obviously during that time frame in the real war, things moving on roads were very slow... Is this reflected in the game? The end user location may not be in the zone where the Monsoon hits, but the trail certainly is? I'm just trying to get a fuller picture of the impact. Do you have the patch number where this was introduced??? Again thanks... Hal

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 3:32:54 PM   
Mike Solli


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Thanks for the info, Blackhorse.

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 3:49:31 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Blackhorse, thanks that's a big help. In short, it is best to stock up on supply for that long period from mid May to Mid October. How does this impact the supply chain to China on the Burma road??? Obviously during that time frame in the real war, things moving on roads were very slow... Is this reflected in the game? The end user location may not be in the zone where the Monsoon hits, but the trail certainly is? I'm just trying to get a fuller picture of the impact. Do you have the patch number where this was introduced??? Again thanks... Hal



More important is to build up any captured bases in Burma as fast as you can. Larger bases keep the supply flow going as well as anything. Plan ahead and start moving engineer units to Burma as soon as possible. Have lots of engineers advance with the attack. This will help. The SE Asia theater suffers from a shortage of engineers. If you have any future plans there then it is best to move lots of engineer and a few base forces from the US. Do this as early as you can. You will need them.





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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 4:27:02 PM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Blackhorse, thanks that's a big help. In short, it is best to stock up on supply for that long period from mid May to Mid October. How does this impact the supply chain to China on the Burma road??? Obviously during that time frame in the real war, things moving on roads were very slow... Is this reflected in the game? The end user location may not be in the zone where the Monsoon hits, but the trail certainly is? I'm just trying to get a fuller picture of the impact. Do you have the patch number where this was introduced??? Again thanks... Hal


Dr. Hal,

The monsoon restrictions apply only to the supply flow at bases, not the hexes in between, as far as I can tell. The bases in China also have limits on how much supply can move to/through them each day, so this limits the ability to "push" supplies through Burma to China. The Chinese bases are not affected by the monsoon, however.

I don't know when these were patched in. I play with the last official patch and the monsoon changes are all included.


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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 5:00:28 PM   
Mike Solli


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Monsoons were implemented in patch 2.

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 6:55:18 PM   
dr.hal


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Thanks Blackhorse and crsutton, all good advice. Do you think it might be a bit more "realistic" to have movement impacted? Cut by as much as 50%? The board could have a "monsoon zone" like the others. This would also impact weather (air operations done in either rain of cloudy conditions for that period). Having spent much time in that area in the "rainy" season as well as others, it is not a fun time to conduct a war.... Just a thought. No criticism intended. Maybe a future patch??? Hal

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/22/2011 9:57:49 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Thanks Blackhorse and crsutton, all good advice. Do you think it might be a bit more "realistic" to have movement impacted? Cut by as much as 50%? The board could have a "monsoon zone" like the others. This would also impact weather (air operations done in either rain of cloudy conditions for that period). Having spent much time in that area in the "rainy" season as well as others, it is not a fun time to conduct a war.... Just a thought. No criticism intended. Maybe a future patch??? Hal


Already does indirectly, albeit the effect is hard to see at times.

1. LCUs in a malaria zone suffer greater fatigue (chapter 12 of the manual).

2. The amount of fatigue slows down the maximum rate of potential travel by a LCU (page 189)

3. Bases only export along the LOC excess supply. Excess supply is greater than >2x supply required at the base.

4. During the monsoon bases which are not built up struggle to achieve 2x supply required

5. Supply is used up at the base in taking reinforcements so units (land and air) in a malaria zone engaged in combat find extra difficulties in maintaining their combat power and hence the tempo of operations

Alfred

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/23/2011 2:15:56 PM   
dr.hal


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Good summation Alfred (as usual) but as you point out, the rules and thus the impact are indirect... which I feel might underestimate what the monsoon is all about. You've been there, you know... it is a morass, to say the least. Land (and to a lesser extent air) warfare comes to a virtual halt... but not so in the game. But as the impact or lack of it is felt on BOTH sides, then I guess not having it is ok by play standards. All of life is a compromise. Hal

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/24/2011 12:26:19 PM   
michaelm


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In the latest beta (1108q9), I have also added monsoons to Aviation Support and Pilot fatigue recovery after watching several old newsreels on the Burma Campaign.

During the monsoon period and at bases where monsoons have affect, if the AF is less than level 5, the pilots of groups stationed there gain some fatigue and the Service Level of the AF for maintaining a/c is lowered affecting repair/maint.

I have only included less developed AFs as more developed AF should have better repair/maintence facilities and better accomodation for the pilots to counter such affects.


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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/24/2011 7:43:54 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

In the latest beta (1108q9), I have also added monsoons to Aviation Support and Pilot fatigue recovery after watching several old newsreels on the Burma Campaign.

During the monsoon period and at bases where monsoons have affect, if the AF is less than level 5, the pilots of groups stationed there gain some fatigue and the Service Level of the AF for maintaining a/c is lowered affecting repair/maint.

I have only included less developed AFs as more developed AF should have better repair/maintence facilities and better accomodation for the pilots to counter such affects.




Better start building those bases...

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/24/2011 10:49:04 PM   
John 3rd


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I don't think the game adequately models Monsoons. Having recently read Latimer, I believe that units basically shouldn't be allowed to MOVE during this time. Little to no chance of combat should be how it is. The easy move is to limit aircraft usage to 10%/Lvl of base. A Lvl-5 AF can have its units fly at 50% (set the other 50% to train or stand down). I have a comprehensive set of rules I like to use for HR but most human beings are scared by their level of detail!

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/25/2011 1:20:53 AM   
dr.hal


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Thanks for the info Michealm, I appreciate it. Although I don't think I would go as far as John above, but I do have to ask is there any plans to have the rainy "season" impact movement and combat (land that is)??? Virtually ALL the roads in that area at the time (and most unto this day) are dirt. And living in Vermont we have 6 seasons, Spring, Summer, Fall (very colorful), Winter, Mud, and Black Fly seasons.... The MUD is a MESS. Even with a four wheel drive you can have real problems. 60% of the roads here are dirt (yes 60%) and it slows transportation down, WAY down.... Hal

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 10/25/2011 2:42:53 AM   
John 3rd


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My point. Latimer talks about only the rivers and railroads being useful for movement.


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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/17/2012 4:37:38 PM   
dr.hal


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I never did get an answer about the question concerning plans to more accurately portray the impact of the Monsoon on movement and combat (which I think would make the game far more reflective of reality if such rules were to be put into play). John would it be possible to see what HR rules you are talking about? Thanks, Hal

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/17/2012 5:01:18 PM   
Alfred

 

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Sorry, I thought the question was answered. Basically no plans in a direct sense, the effect is only felt indirectly.

I can't see how with the existing game engine and map, the effect of mud could be introduced. The terrain hex movement rate is a single value, not able to have multiple values, one for dry conditions and another for mud. However Andrew Brown would be the authoritative voice on this point.

Remember the introduction of the monsoon rules was an ad hoc game engine adjustment made by Andy mac "on the cheap". As such it was essentially a static environment which was introduced. What you want is a dynamic environment and that almost certainly would entail significant re-coding of the engine which is beyond michaelm's brief.

Alfred

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/17/2012 6:15:16 PM   
dr.hal


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No need to say you're sorry, it's just that I didn't see a definitive answer. I fully agree, what I'm asking for is far more complex than the current fix, and thus would take time, energy and resources. However there is a model in the game engine already and that's the malaria zone, which is time dependent, geographically limited and I assume impacts land units and their capability in combat. As for what would happen in a monsoon zone, I could see a handicap put on foot and vehicular movement on secondary roads, but not on primary or rail. This penalty would virtually halt movement and possibly combat, or greatly reduce combat's impact. I believe that this concept could have much more of an impact on the play of the game than the malaria zone (but I don't know for sure) as it could decisively alter a campaign in a full region for long periods of time. I guess what surprises me is that the designers who did such an outstanding job, didn't consider the historical impact of the monsoon in SE Asia fighting. But one can't think of everything and they thought of ALMOST everything which is high praise indeed! Maybe down the line, who knows! Thanks Alfred. Hal

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/18/2012 2:19:40 AM   
Alfred

 

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Ah, but the malaria zone is a static environment which had already been coded by the pre-AE coders. Same with the cold zone which is another static environment. Once the calendar ticks over to the relevant day, every hex in the predetermined static zone has exactly the same modification.

The effects you want to be experienced in the monsoon zone require that area to become a dynamic environment. For example, you want the impact of mud to be modelled in. Well that is dynamic because it is dependent on the weather coding which is a dynamic element, and also pre-dates the AE coders. You can't have mud unless it has rained thus you would have some hexes in the monsoon zone turning to mud after heavy rains but the adjacent hex could still remain bone dry. Compare that with the cold zone where every hex is subject to the cold weather penalties irrespective of the dynamic weather environment. If one wanted to be pedantic one would argue that the winter penalties in the cold zone should be more severe in those hexes experiencing a blizzard compared to an adjacent hex which might be experiencing a "balmy" overcast day.

The monsoon effects do impact upon combat, albeit as previously indicated, they do so indirectly by impacting upon logistics. To extend the impact upon actual combat could not be easily accommodated within the existing algorithmns. For example, would you want the monsoon season to impact upon acquiring DL (detection levels which greatly affect actual combat results achieved), making it much harder to gain a visual sighting of the enemy due to the weight of the downpour reducing the visual capability of the Mark I eyeball. Would you also decrease the likelihood of getting aerial recon up in the air because of the adverse atmospheric conditions. Could you imagine the outcry from players who already complain about bad weather in the CBI even before worrying about how to code the differences between a recon flight emanating outside of the monsoon zone or one taking off from within the monsoon zone but targeting a hex outside of the monsoon zone?

Then would you also want, by further code rewriting, to further nerf artillery to take into account the reduced efficacy of artillery rounds hitting soft mud, so that in the monzoon zone, and only in the monsoon zone, the efficacy of artillery is reduced by terrain + fortification levels + the unique element of mud absorbing the energy? And if you did that, why wouldn't the effect of mud on artillery not also need to be replicated outside of the monzoon zone in any hex after rain. How much rain would you need to model the turning of ground to mud; 1 day of rain in the monsoon zone but 7 days of non stop rain in a temperate zone? And just how exactly do you get sand deserts to become muddy?

I won't go into the abstracted transportation network. Suffice to say that in the real world not all secondary roads are created equal but in AE they are. A dry secondary road in the CBI would be of a lower construction standard and most definitely in terms of maintainance, compared to a secondary road elsewhere. We are dealing with a static map which is incapable of self generating new/improved traffic networks during the course of a campaign.

Ultimately it just comes down to the fact that the entire ground combat model is by far the weakest of the three combat models. Not surprising considering the heritage of the game. Taking into account the limits imposed upon the AE developers, the ground combat model will always be the weakest for to bring it up to an equivalent degree of complexity similar to naval and air combat, it would require a complete rewriting of the code. That was simply beyond the scope of the AE project.

Now if we were really serious about making AE more "realistic" the entire current logistical model's abstractions and compromises would have to be thrown out of the window. Yeah, introduce a functioning real world logistical model and watch the sales of the game ramp up as Mike Solli I, Damian, Nemo, me ... give me a second I'll come up with another name ... rush out to buy the new game titled WITP:Quartermaster.

Alfred

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/18/2012 10:34:02 AM   
Itdepends

 

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Wouldn't it be nice though to use tactical bombers to strangle your opponents supply train- much like in HOI2 or 3

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/18/2012 11:40:42 AM   
Dili

 

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IRL a small airbase with tarmac will continue to be operative and a giant airbase for 4 engines in plain ground will be inoperative.

< Message edited by Dili -- 1/18/2012 11:41:57 AM >

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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/18/2012 8:52:52 PM   
dr.hal


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Well Alfred, true to your modus oparendi,I was looking for a 4 ounce hamburger and got a 16 ounce sirloin!!!! Although I agree with all that you say, well most all, I do think you are over thinking this discourse, or making a mountain out of a prairie-dog hill.... I think we would all agree that modeling real life runs a continuum from extremely basic to incredibly complex. All aspects of the game are some form of approximation. However my point is rather simple, weather is dealt with at a very elementary level given its complexity (one has only to turn to your local TV forecast to understand the misdiagnosis that can happen there!) and historical impact. Certainly one can try to model it in a very dynamic way which would entail tremendous effort for not so much result. I didn't mean to suggest that. But if there is one or two weather features that stand out in the Pacific war, it is either a monsoon or/and a typhoon. Yet it is these features that are accommodated very superficially or not at all. Although the latter feature is something I don't want to deal with right now (oddly, my uncle was killed in the 14 September 1945 typhoon off Okinawa when his ship turned turtle after surviving 3 years in the Pacific War; so typhoons are not a happy thought for me)the first is something that I think might be more effectively dealt with. Yes it can rest upon what you label as a "dynamic" model and this strives for complex yet relatively realistic results, but I was thinking of a simple "fix" (which probably shows how ignorant I am when it comes to programming!).

A hex is a huge area and there can be lots a variation to the weather even within that hex let alone across many hexes, which would be impossible to emulate. However the aggregate of possibilities can be somewhat more susceptible to such a task. This is done by the game with terrain, why not weather and its impact? Rainfall day by day and mile by mile is very dynamic, however within a 42 square mile area there is more overall consistency. This is true in Vermont as it is in Java. Just as terrain is not ALL forest, jungle or sand in a hex nor are ALL the roads dirt or paved, there is a general statement you can make about the average road and terrain conditions, which is exactly what the game system does. The same can be done for the monsoon season wherein the aggregate impact can indeed be reflected in the game although individual sub-areas may deffer. If the monsoon season is identified to be between 15 May and 15 October then in certain geographically designated hexes a penalty would be applied to both movement and combat. This area would be defined by hex type and area location, or if need be by area alone. For example all non-mountain hexes between various points on the board (including or excluding certain hexes such as open ocean hexes or desert hexes depending upon the complexity of the model). It would be a "set" impact (a modifier to a die roll) not a dynamic factor. Thus this modifier would be set in three ways, by date, hex terrain and hex location. One could even envision differing impacts for different terrains if so desired. The result would be that over the aggregate area there would be a relatively realistic impact on fighting and movement to reflect the historical impact that weather had on the real campaigns. Would it be accurate, in isolation no, not really, but would it have an overall impact that might approach what the battle area had between 1941 - 45? In my humble view, yes. I hope the thrust of this is understandable. Thanks for listening. Hal


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RE: Rain Rain go away! - 1/18/2012 11:06:33 PM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Blackhorse, thanks that's a big help. In short, it is best to stock up on supply for that long period from mid May to Mid October. How does this impact the supply chain to China on the Burma road??? Obviously during that time frame in the real war, things moving on roads were very slow... Is this reflected in the game? The end user location may not be in the zone where the Monsoon hits, but the trail certainly is? I'm just trying to get a fuller picture of the impact. Do you have the patch number where this was introduced??? Again thanks... Hal



More important is to build up any captured bases in Burma as fast as you can. Larger bases keep the supply flow going as well as anything. Plan ahead and start moving engineer units to Burma as soon as possible. Have lots of engineers advance with the attack. This will help. The SE Asia theater suffers from a shortage of engineers. If you have any future plans there then it is best to move lots of engineer and a few base forces from the US. Do this as early as you can. You will need them.



I took Akyab, and with an airfield size 2, I was unable to supply it with transports, is that part of the effect of the monsoon season?

/Made a huge mistake attempting an offense in mid/late 1943 - took Akyab and unable to supply it.

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