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where are the Poles?

 
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where are the Poles? - 10/22/2011 1:29:53 PM   
Javolenus

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 8/13/2010
Status: online 		Hi There,

Just bought this game coz it says you can command Polish forces, but I can't find them anywhere--just US and UK forces/scenarios. Am I missing something really obvious? Hope so! Any help on this appreciated, so thanks in advance.
Post #: 1
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/22/2011 4:42:59 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12867
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Poland is in the editor as a country however there are no specific Polish 3D units. You would have to use British units. There are no supplied single battles with Poles at this time.

Edit: see Pip's post below.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 10/22/2011 7:21:36 PM >

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to Javolenus)
Post #: 2
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/22/2011 5:09:47 PM   
Javolenus

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 8/13/2010
Status: online 		Hi There and many thanks for the quick response.

Mmm, this is bad. The advertising blurb clearly states 'control Polish forces'. Why does it say that if no Polish forces are in the game? The marketing surrounding the game gives the impression that you can command Polish units--to be honest, that was a major factor in me buying the game. I was fully expecting Polish units, with Polish kit, speaking in Polish, and fighting Polish scenarios.

From the Matrix and Slitherine websites:

"Control British, US, Polish, Canadian forces in 3 epic campaigns covering more than 30 varied battles or take control of Italian and German forces in multiplayer."

I think a point must be made here--marketing has to be clear and honest, as stated in European Consumer Law. I would like to ask Matrix to refund the cost of the game and make sure that, in future, all marketing blurb is clear and correct: in other words, if you get a Polish flag and no Polish units, then this must be stated.

Although the game itself is impressive, I can't hide my disappointment at falling for what is, effectively, a marketing ploy. And if that sounds harsh, then let me ask:

1. Does the marketing blurb say you can command Polish forces?
2. And are Polish forces actually in the game?

It's plain bad.




< Message edited by Javolenus -- 10/22/2011 5:29:50 PM >

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 3
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/22/2011 7:07:36 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 6/23/2010
Status: offline 		Holding the Ring (the final Normandy mission) IIRC is a mission where you command Polish troops, so we were definitely not being dishonest.

They are not a fully featured side (I'm no expert but I imagine they would be using standard Allied/British equipment anyway?) but they are definitely in the game both in terms of side regalia and story.

I hope this will allow you to see that we were not attempting to misrepresent the game at all, and that you will continue to enjoy it.

Cheers

Pip

(in reply to Javolenus)
Post #: 4
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/22/2011 8:08:19 PM   
Javolenus

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 8/13/2010
Status: online 		Hi there and many thanks for the swift response--much appreciated.

The game itself is very good indeed--but that's not the issue.

Despite your assertion to the contrary, I must stress that the marketing is misleading. The marketing clearly states that the player can control Polish forces, but Polish forces are not represented in the game. The Poles fought throughout the whole war, in many different theatres, but my first thought on reading the marketing blurb was that the Polish Army would be represented--not British/American units merely flying a Polish flag.

I bought the game specifically because I thought Polish Army units would be available, and was puzzled when I could find no sign of them--hence this post.

Does the blurb state that the player can control Polish forces? Yes! And are there any actual Polish forces in the game? No!

The scenario cited above does indeed refer to Polish troops, but they are, in fact, US/UK troops (speaking with a mixture of US/UK voices)--only the flag is Polish. To offer a single scenario where US/UK units are deployed under a Polish flag does not really live up to the marketing blurb, and I think this is beyond dispute.

I think that all marketing should be amended to better represent what purchasers will actually find in the game.

Maybe some folks will think this post is a bit of an overreaction--after all, the game itself is a quality product--but I feel strongly that there has been a clear infringement and wanted to make my point.






< Message edited by Javolenus -- 10/22/2011 9:41:46 PM >

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 5
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/23/2011 11:42:12 AM   
Iain McNeil


Posts: 1834
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		I'm sorry if you disagree but we feel these are clearly Polish troops. This was discussed in detail with the BBC and they were happy with the result. The same goes for Canadian troops when they are used. Obviously its not possible to get voice over for all of the nations that participated in the war and this was the closest approximation. Polish troops used the same equipment so the same models are used in game. Everything is completely appropriate.

If you are still unhappy then you are welcome to register an official complaint with the BBC at http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/


_____________________________

Iain McNeil
Director
Slitherine Software
Website http://www.slitherine.com

(in reply to Javolenus)
Post #: 6
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/23/2011 10:28:42 PM   
Javolenus

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 8/13/2010
Status: online 		Hi Iain and thanks for the reply.

Let me come back to you on a few points:

1. I would not expect native-speaker voice-overs for all nations that participated in the war, but I think I can be forgiven for expecting Polish units to be, well, Polish! It is obvious that the 'Polish' units featured in a single scenario are exactly the same as other US/UK units that appear throughout the game--the only difference is the addition of a Polish flag.

2. The voices used for the 'Polish' troops are not in any sense an 'approximation' of Polish, they are the same US/UK voices used elsewhere. The game does feature French and German voices, and this serves only to highlight the 'Polish' units' lack of authenticity.

3. True, Polish troops serving with the Western Allies used British kit, but the point I am trying to make is that the marketing blurb gives the impression that Polish Army units are featured. Why do I say this? Because the marketing blurb states: "Control British, US, Polish, Canadian forces in 3 epic campaigns covering more than 30 varied battles . . ." In other words, I was fully expecting a 1939 Polish campaign in the game. Not unreasonable, given the marketing spiel.

4. You invite me to complain to the BBC but I really cannot see why! The offending marketing blurb is featured on the Slitherine/Matrix websites, and I bought the game through Matrix. Why on earth would I want to complain to the BBC?

5. I would argue that 'everything' is not 'appropriate'! Specifically, your marketing of the game is not appropriate, as it gives every impression of featuring Polish units when, in reality, the only Polish thing in the game is the national flag.

I do think think you can contradict my reasonable observations without losing further credibility. Please do the decent thing and admit that the marketing is, at best, misleading.

As previously mentioned, I bought the game on the strength of the Polish 'angle'. After all, the marketing blurb clearly states: "Control British, US, Polish, Canadian forces in 3 epic campaigns covering more than 30 varied battles . . ." But when I played the game I could find no trace of any Polish units! I had to access this forum in order to learn that 'Polish' forces appear in a single scenario (not an 'epic campaign' as the blurb would suggest). And what of these 'Polish' units? They're exactly the same as the US/UK units but with the addition of a Polish flag. Given these circumstances I think I can be forgiven for feeling aggrieved.

Finally, as a customer, you should be listening to my concerns with a sympathetic ear, not passing me on to the BBC! You would gain my respect if you could bring yourself to admit that, on this occasion, your marketing is misleading.



< Message edited by Javolenus -- 10/23/2011 10:30:18 PM >

(in reply to Iain McNeil)
Post #: 7
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/24/2011 3:37:31 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1494
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hmm, I can't remember a time there was someone complaining that Polish units were not getting enough attention in a wargame. Though time and time again I keep hearing those complaints when it comes to Italians, and I don't blame them.

In any case, I DO have a faint memory there of Polish units in this title, though I don't remember anything distinguishing myself.  I suppose (and wouldn't mind) seeing a Polish campaign pack someday, etc, though I just don't think many people would find that very interesting.

To be honest, I prefer the Polish map(s) best when doing PBEM in Panzer Corps, though most people seem to generally prefer something that either comes with Tigers, Panthers, or Kings. Moving around weak infantry and horse-drawn units just doesn't sound very appealing to many people... at least compared to the other toys in the box.


_____________________________



King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

(in reply to Javolenus)
Post #: 8
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/24/2011 7:41:49 AM   
Javolenus

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 8/13/2010
Status: online 		The point is that the game's marketing blurb clearly states the player can 'control Polish forces' in 'an epic campaign' but fails to deliver for the reasons listed above. By 'forces' I assumed that Polish Armed Forces would be represented; by 'epic campaign' I assumed a full, dedicated, Polish campaign would be represented. In the event, the 'Poles' appear in a single scenario as US/UK units. I have no problem at all with the product as a wargame--I just feel that the sales pitch is misleading and, as a customer who has parted with money, wanted to register my opinion.

(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 9
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/24/2011 9:25:49 AM   
Iain McNeil


Posts: 1834
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		I understand what you are saying but think you have read more in to it than it actually says so disagree it is misleading. Nowhere does it say there is a Polish campaign.

"Control British, US, Polish, Canadian forces in 3 epic campaigns covering more than 30 varied battles or take control of Italian and German forces in multiplayer."

Clearly you can't have a complete campaign for the nations mentioned because there are 3 campaigns and 4 nations mentioned. Unfortunately a campaign set as Poland would be very hard to sell as the vast majority of players want to control US, UK, German or Soviet forces. Only a very small minority are interested in playing in Poland and they are mostly Polish speaking, which is a language the game is not available in.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

_____________________________

Iain McNeil
Director
Slitherine Software
Website http://www.slitherine.com

(in reply to Javolenus)
Post #: 10
RE: where are the Poles? - 10/24/2011 2:16:54 PM   
Javolenus

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 8/13/2010
Status: online 		EDIT: Since posting this I have examined the files in the game's directory. The file listing all units does not include any Polish units at all, proving my point that Polish forces are not represented in the game except for the addition of a Polish flag. I also checked the sound files--seems that 33 short audio clips at most would be required to give the Poles a vocal presence--that's about 66 seconds of real-time audio--not much to ask?

I would like to emphasize the main point at issue: the marketing of this game states that the player can control Polish forces, but this not the case in reality. I would request that the developer adopt one of the following fixes:

1. Drop the Polish angle from the marketing blurb
2. Add designated Polish Army units to the game
3. Modify the current game to include Polish audio clips

Obviously, given the responses to date, nothing will happen, but we can hope . . .

***

Hi Iain and thanks for this--I appreciate the response.

Well, I think I've spent enough time flogging this particular dead horse, so I'll leave you in peace!

The game itself is very good and nicely presented, although I was dismayed to see "VP's" instead of "VPs" in the ingame text--no need for a possessive here, it's just a simple plural (VPs = Victory Points).

But I stand by my original proposition that the marketing is misleading--do you really think I would waste valuable time attempting to make this point if I didn't believe I was right?! My feeling is that the marketing blurb completely overcooks the Polish angle: something that left me completely baffled when I first played the game--hence the title of this thread.

And so I guess we will have to agree to disagree! I'll certainly be more wary of your advertising in future--no offence, it's just the obvious outcome given the circumstances.



< Message edited by Javolenus -- 10/28/2011 11:32:39 AM >

(in reply to Iain McNeil)
Post #: 11
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