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Where do the survivors go? - 10/20/2011 3:30:24 PM   
ecwgcx


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I've had many mid-ocean intercepts of troop carrying ships being sunk by my forces (sub, aircraft, SCTF) where the transport was clearly sunk (ie the message "combat ends with the last Japanese ship sunk" or several waves of aircraft that can't find a target after boming the snot out of the transport). When the combat results screen pops up i'll see:
xAK Sinkus Maru 10 bomb hits, sunk

1500 Casualties
15 Combat squads destroyed, 25 disabled
10 Non-combat destroyed, 5 disabled
1 Engineer destroyed, 3 disabled
10 guns destroyed, 3 disabled

My question is: where do the disabled troops go? Why aren't they destroyed if there is no other ship in the hex to pick them up? This is mid-ocean where there is no land to swim to. Is this another Fog of War thing? Are they floating on debris for eternity?

In the unlikely event there is a WitP2 I'd like to see survivors on the map. If a ship is sunk there would be random number of "crew units" in the hex where the ship went down. I'd say no more than 10% of the VP of that ship. That number would deteriorate over time to represent survivors succumbing to the elements. If a friendly ship enters the hex then a percentage would be rescued and those VP's returned to the player. Enemy ships would not pick them up (or kill them) because the game doesn't deal in POW's.
Anyway, just an idea to make those little bits and bytes a little more "human".
Thoughts?
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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/20/2011 3:36:54 PM   
castor troy


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if there is no other ship to pick them up the "survivors" are gone, even if they don´t show up as destroyed. Don´t know if it has ever been fixed and you get victory points for enemy ground troops being destroyed while being on ships at sea.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/20/2011 6:27:06 PM   
RevRick


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Well, I have a follow-up question.

It may or may not have been addressed in the manual, but I have not read the fine print.

What happens to the survivors who are picked up.

To they formulate a remnant of the original unit around which another may be built, or do they go back into the pool for replacements?



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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/20/2011 6:48:56 PM   
Nikademus


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IIRC...."survivor" devices are integrated into other existing units. I had a Japanese regiment for example that lost one transport during travel to Malaya. The other ships "rescued" survivors and when the unit was landed and fully re-integrated it simply had less devices at the destination than where it started. (To the tune of 20% less in my case! ouch)


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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 6:58:28 PM   
spence

 

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IRL soldiers surviving the sinking of their transport would seem to be more of a liability to the remainder of the unit than any sort of asset. Their arms, equipment and rations (and most likely even their boots) would be on the bottom of the sea (unless it was a really slow sinking). My guess is that for the U.S. at least they would not even be landed until that could be done at a completely secure base. They'd then be put into a replacement draft for their unit (or maybe even some other unit) after re-equipping.

< Message edited by spence -- 10/21/2011 7:00:00 PM >

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 7:31:01 PM   
ecwgcx


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Brrrrrr, that's cold. I cant think of a situation where some naval commander said "Tuff luck, we don't have enough spare socks to pick up those poor guys in the water. On to the objective!" Americans, British, German, Soviet and Japanese ship captains all put their vessels in danger to pick up survivors, unless there was in imminent threat, ie a sub nearby. Even Japanese crews, who would stand and sing the National Anthem and give three cheers for the Emperor before going over the side were picked up by their ships. I don't think it was just altruism, these were guys who were already trained at something and would be wasted if left to die. In my idea of having survivors picked up then they would be returned to the pool.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 7:44:59 PM   
spence

 

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I was certainly not suggesting that they not be rescued - just that troops who were rescued would be of no use whatsoever to a landing force; and that rather than imposing on the landing force commander, who might well have other things to worry about, such troops would be returned to a secure base to be re-equipped. In game terms: to the pool as suggested. I took previous posts to indicate that they are in fact "landed" as part of division or whatever as disrupted devices which might then be rejuvenated on site. I really don't know what was done with such troops: I just think that they'd be out of action for some considerable length of time.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 8:07:53 PM   
ecwgcx


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I know, my bad. Didn't hit the smiley face when I should have.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 8:26:38 PM   
cavalry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

Brrrrrr, that's cold. I cant think of a situation where some naval commander said "Tuff luck, we don't have enough spare socks to pick up those poor guys in the water. On to the objective!" Americans, British, German, Soviet and Japanese ship captains all put their vessels in danger to pick up survivors, unless there was in imminent threat, ie a sub nearby. Even Japanese crews, who would stand and sing the National Anthem and give three cheers for the Emperor before going over the side were picked up by their ships. I don't think it was just altruism, these were guys who were already trained at something and would be wasted if left to die. In my idea of having survivors picked up then they would be returned to the pool.



Not in the Atlantic...

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 9:45:29 PM   
ecwgcx


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That's my point of a threat nearby...if a ship was sunk by a sub, then there is a good chance it was still in the area. If it was bombed by a Condor then aid would be rendered. If memory serves (which is doubtful on a friday) there were ships in the larger convoys tasked with lifegaurd duty. Perhaps some WitA fanboys could clear my mind on this.

I totally understand that a captains 1st priority is to his ship. But there is also a bond between those aboard ship and those in the sea. If there wasn't then there would rarely be examples of ships picking up enemy survivors.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 10:20:09 PM   
JeffK


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Shark bait.
Strafed in the water.

Bismark Sea, Indianapolis etc


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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 10:55:54 PM   
jmalter

 

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as best i understand, the game-engine allows ships that aren't completely full to pick up survivors from sunken ships in the same TF. this led to the development of CLD (Cribtop Lifeboat Doctrine) where one creates a separate TF w/ an empty personnel-capable transport or 2, then merges this TF w/ the main Amph/Trans TF as it leaves its port of embarkation.

i assume, but don't know for sure, that a Lifeboat ship can only have a possibility to rescue 'disrupted' survivors, or if it can possibly reduce the # of 'destroyed' squads. also, i don't know if the disrupted squads will repair on-board, after they've been picked up by a Lifeboat, or if they must be unloaded in a friendly port (w/ available support) before they'll repair.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/21/2011 11:26:24 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

That's my point of a threat nearby...if a ship was sunk by a sub, then there is a good chance it was still in the area. If it was bombed by a Condor then aid would be rendered. If memory serves (which is doubtful on a friday) there were ships in the larger convoys tasked with lifegaurd duty. Perhaps some WitA fanboys could clear my mind on this.


In the Atlantic, there were indeed rescue ships that sailed at the rear of convoys and were tasked with picking up survivors of torpedoed/sunk ships. But the escorts routinely picked up the survivors of torpedoed ships as well - even to the exclusion of finding and attacking the U-boat. That is to say that they would attack a U-boat that they had located in the vicinity of survivors but, if no U-boat was immediately detected, would tend to the rescue of said survivors.

Long after WWII I served on two such ships which had acted as convoy escorts during the winter of 1942-43. I was, amongst other duties, the Classified Material Control Officer on one of them and as such was stuck accounting for all sorts of stuff marked "Secret" and so forth. One such folder was the War Diaries of the USCGC Duane. Most of what was contained therein was pretty boring: something along the line of "anchored at Rejkavik. Stood antiaircraft watches". But there were also intermittent descriptions of rescuing survivors from torpedoed ships (and in one instance, the description of and accounts of the rescue and interrogations of the survivors of U-175 which was mostly sunk by USCGC Spencer).

I read a book called "Convoy" (by a guy called Middleton I think) that spoke directly to the issue of survivors. I will summarize. The Allied military commanders assigned a high priority to the rescue of merchant seamen from sunken ships for the simple reason that such sailors were civilians and as such were not subject to military orders to go to sea. It was a matter of maintaining their morale (giving them some hope they would be rescued if torpedoed) so that they would voluntarily continue to sign up to go to sea.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/22/2011 6:31:22 AM   
Cribtop


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I may be able to add some data here.

I accidentally discovered what I humbly refer to as the "Cribtop Lifeboat Doctrine" in my game with Cuttlefish. Basically I had 1/3rd of an IJA Division loaded on transports bound for Kendari in early '42 on an Amphibious mission. Several xAKs had no troops but were loaded about 80% with supplies. A Dutch sub torpedoed and sank the xAK transporting an element of the Division. The "supply only" xAKs rescued the majority of the troops that should have been lost on the torpedoed xAK. IIRC, the unit landed a day or so later and overwhelmed the Dutch defenders. The unit had higher than expected disrupton and fatigue, but was still more than enough to take Kendari.

Thus, my unintentional experiment shows, IMHO, that picked up survivors will suffer DIS and FAT but will definitely live to fight another day. Note that it appears that all surviving squads were disabled. It didn't matter in my case, but in an atoll invasion in '44 that could make a big difference. Time lapse between sinking/rescue and invasion was 1 day in this case, so whether the squads would've recovered en route is an open question, although my money is on slow recovery, if any.

Here is the post from page 6 of my AAR that discusses this incident:



Here is the situation of 21st/A Division on board ship on Jan 10th (actually points out a failure in my loading routine as I meant to have them spread over 4 or 5 ships, not 3 ):


- Anzan Maru (1/3 of unit, led by 36 IJA Infantry sqds, this is the parent)
- Kinkai Maru (1/3 of unit, led by 36 IJA Infantry sqds)
- Ume Maru (1/3 of unit, led by 36 IJA Infantry sqds)
- Nittai Maru is one of two "supply only" xAKs, 81% full and a big mother

And the situation on Jan 11, after the "unfortunate incident:"

- Anzan Maru - SUNK
- Kinkai Maru (1/3 of unit, led by 36 IJA Infantry sqds)
- Ume Maru (1/3 of unit, led by 36 IJA Infantry sqds)
- Nittai Maru (1/3 of unit, all disabled, 20 IJA Infantry sqds, 8 IJA HMG sqds, 14 support), Nittai Maru now 100% full

Total Status of 21st/A Div on 1/10/42: 103/103
Total Status of 21st/A Div on 1/11/42: 61/78

Thus, instead of losing an agonizing 33% of the unit, we lose 22%, with a very significant force stuffing itself into the Nittai Maru "lifeboat."


< Message edited by Cribtop -- 10/22/2011 6:45:30 AM >


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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/22/2011 7:47:07 AM   
jmalter

 

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thanks for pitching in, Cribtop - i forgot to credit you & your AAR in my post #12 above.

another book on convoy duty is 'The Captain' by Jan de Hartog. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Captain_(1967_novel) a semi-autobiographical memoir of a young Dutch tugboat officer who finds himself promoted to 'relief captain', towing coastal barges around British waters during the Blitz. After a senior captain's death, Martinus Harinxma finds himself captain of the 'Isabel Kwel', Holland's finest ocean-going tug. She's been commandeered by the Royal Navy, fitted w/ some armament, and assigned as 'rescue ship' to accompany Atlantic convoys.

a pert' good novel, and a good companion-read to 'HMS Ulysses'.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/22/2011 5:00:36 PM   
steamboateng


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An older novel, which I read away back in the early '60's, 'The Cruel Sea'' by Nicolas Montseratt, describes life on a Flower Corvette during the Battle of the Atlantic. A good read, if you can find it at your local library.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/22/2011 8:22:49 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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Gents -

An excellent discussion on a topic upon which I know little. Thank You - your information will be put to good use.

steamboateng -

Orig:

An older novel, which I read away back in the early '60's, 'The Cruel Sea'' by Nicolas Montseratt, describes life on a Flower Corvette during the Battle of the Atlantic. A good read, if you can find it at your local library.

> Yes, Sir, an excellent book, I will have to reread it again!

Mac

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/22/2011 8:52:41 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steamboateng

An older novel, which I read away back in the early '60's, 'The Cruel Sea'' by Nicolas Montseratt, describes life on a Flower Corvette during the Battle of the Atlantic. A good read, if you can find it at your local library.


The movie, BTW, was excellent.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 10/22/2011 10:04:07 PM   
Pascal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: steamboateng

An older novel, which I read away back in the early '60's, 'The Cruel Sea'' by Nicolas Montseratt, describes life on a Flower Corvette during the Battle of the Atlantic. A good read, if you can find it at your local library.


+1. And a great movie with Jack Hawkins. This novel and a few other stories Nicolas Montsarrat wrote were based on his experiences as a reserve RN officer on escorts during WWII.


< Message edited by Pascal -- 10/22/2011 10:06:33 PM >


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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 1/15/2013 2:55:43 AM   
SpitfireIX


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Today I discovered that a rescue ship doesn't have to be in the same TF. I sent HMAS Adelaide and several AKs and APs to pick up the troops from Rabaul. A TF consisting of Adelaide and one AK arrived first, and began loading Lark Force. During the turn a group of Japanese BBs and CAs showed up and sank both ships. (Note to self: Next time use PBYs ) I clicked on the troops present and discovered that only a tiny remnant of Lark Force hadn't been loaded, and I assumed that rest of the unit had been wiped out. However, during the turn two more AKs had arrived in separate TFs, and when I clicked on one I discovered that most of Lark Force was aboard it, with the ship's cargo load shown as exceeding its capacity by about 1000. I transferred the empty freighter to the same TF as the rescue ship and ordered them to high-tail it back to Townsville, one turn before the Japanese invasion force arrived.

On a related note, I have two questions. First, I thought I read in the manual that all ships have a rescue capacity, but I've never seen a warship rescue troops (admittedly I haven't had very many loaded APs sunk).

Second, is it possible for a ship with excess troop or cargo capacity, but that already had a ground or air unit aboard, to act as a rescue ship? Or is it impossible for more than one unit to be aboard any ship?

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 1/15/2013 5:59:34 AM   
sanch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steamboateng

An older novel, which I read away back in the early '60's, 'The Cruel Sea'' by Nicolas Montseratt, describes life on a Flower Corvette during the Battle of the Atlantic. A good read, if you can find it at your local library.


Yes, +1 here.

Also, 'The Good Shepherd', by C.S. Forester (who wrote the Horatio Hornblower novels). About a convoy commander battling through a wolf pack in the North Atlantic.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 1/15/2013 6:25:19 AM   
jmalter

 

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Spit9, i think many IJ warships have a troop/cargo cap, Allied warships have nil. also, IJ ships are better than Allied for stuffing troops into available cargo-space.

i'd assume that a ship already carrying a troop/airgroup load would NOT be able to perform rescue, even if the potential rescued guys belonged to the same LCU. in Cribtop's example posted above, only the partially-loaded 'supply only' ship made a rescue.

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 1/15/2013 12:31:42 PM   
Zigurat666


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This is where they go...






Attachment (1)

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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 1/15/2013 5:03:10 PM   
SpitfireIX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch

Also, 'The Good Shepherd', by C.S. Forester (who wrote the Horatio Hornblower novels). About a convoy commander battling through a wolf pack in the North Atlantic.

I read that when I was in high school, even before I read his HH books, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

The best convoy novel I've ever read, though, is HMS Ulysses, by Alistair MacLean. Ulysses is a fictional Dido-class CLAA, and the plot is a fictionalized version of the ordeal of PQ-17.

I would also highly recommend MacLean's South by Java Head, a novel about a freighter and a tanker attempting to flee during the fall of Singapore.

< Message edited by SpitfireIX -- 1/15/2013 5:07:49 PM >


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RE: Where do the survivors go? - 1/15/2013 5:06:09 PM   
SpitfireIX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

This is where they go...











Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

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