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HQ TOE Stuck on 20%

 
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HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/20/2011 5:50:50 AM   
johntoml56

 

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I am re posting this here because this problem may be more than not enough active Support Units.

My contention is that Sov HQs that enter the game after T1 have their TOE at 20% and it never goes any higher.

For example the Coastal Army arrives T4? with TOE at 20/20, Max 100%. I immediately assigned it to the Southern Front. There are 4000+ active support units in the Pool. T5 it is still at 20/20 and the active pool has dropped to 500. T34 in my PBEM game it is still at 20/20.

All my Shock Armies are stuck on 20/20. I am a touch reluctant to disband those.

I would assume that over time those on 20/20 would slowly creep up and those on 100/100 would slowly degrade.

Disbanding units that temporarily places hundreds in the Active Pool does not have any impact.

Is there any way to get these HQs some priority in terms of Support?
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/20/2011 7:34:20 AM   
Helpless


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I've run idle GC41 and see no problem with filling the HQs. I think it should accelerate once Corps HQs will start disbanding. This is would mimic historical situation, when many Armies were built on the base of former Corps. SU was not in position to support that many HQ personal, i.e. support squads.

Btw, if you really want you can place HQ on refit - CR function does this, however it is not reflected in the unit status and might have side effects as every squad "produced" for the motorize units (such as HQ) will consume vehicle.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
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(in reply to johntoml56)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/22/2011 4:22:40 AM   
johntoml56

 

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Ok, thanks for that; now I know why my game has such an over abundance of vehicles; they arnt getting to the HQs.

Now I am well past the disbanding of Corps....I'm up to like T33

This was rather tedious but here are a few stats from earlier turns....the figures shown are

The Turn, Support in Pool, Supportin Active Pool, Number converted to Infantry

T8, 3555, 802, 59
T9, 2845, 326, 378
T10, 2691, 338, 308
T11, 2269, 147,348
T12, 3529, 332, 338
T13, 3808, 237, 338
T14, 4599, 520, 263

During all those turns the Coastal Army TOE is 20/20 with maxc 100; T10, 44th, 52nd and 55 HQs arrive with about 20/20 and dont increase either. And the game is turning Support into Infantry

Now the Coastal Army is attached to the Southern Front and when I view the the SF the Coastal Army is displayed with (u). Now this is a status of Unready??? Don't know the structure of your database so cant say if it is (u) because its toe is 20% or it is flagged as unready and therefore its toe will not rise.

Other possibilities is that the support for HQs not available on T1 somehow have different ssupport to all others so regardless of how much in the pool they will nvere grow; unlikely.

I note your suggestion re refit by the CR and will give it a shot. Somewhat difficult in my PBEM game but as I have seen this in games played against the AI hopefully can find an old saved turn.

< Message edited by johntoml56 -- 10/22/2011 4:24:31 AM >

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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/23/2011 10:01:28 AM   
Helpless


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I suspect you are low on manpower probably due to many units set on refit. So far in all early game saves I see there is no particular problem with HQ refit.

_____________________________

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(in reply to johntoml56)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/23/2011 11:02:44 AM   
johntoml56

 

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More likely a simple misunderstanding of Refit and HQs; I didnt know that new HQs enter the game with a Status of Unready and should be placed on Refit. I didnt know HQs have a status as nothing is displayed except the TOE; nor did I understand that you could place a HQ on refit by the CR. It is not intuitive.

I found on old game against the AI, placed a HQ with a low TOE on refit, advanced one turn, and its TOE increased by 15 points.

I have done the same in my current PBEM game; waiting for my opponent to 'return fire'.

Cheers

(in reply to Helpless)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/23/2011 5:51:45 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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I seem to remember a manual entry which stated something to the effect that HQs and SUs were always in Refit mode. Did this change at some point, or am I misremembering things?

In the CR, HQs do not have a column entry display for whether they are in refit mode, or not, so I agree with johntoml56 that it is certainly not intuitive. Perhaps we can get the CR to display refit status in a future update?

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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/24/2011 6:50:53 AM   
johntoml56

 

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Excellent news; my Coastal Army went from 20% to 96% after just one turn on Refit; most of my Shock armies have done similar.


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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/26/2011 3:57:50 AM   
The Red Baron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

In the CR, HQs do not have a column entry display for whether they are in refit mode, or not, so I agree with johntoml56 that it is certainly not intuitive. Perhaps we can get the CR to display refit status in a future update?



CR can be used to check HQ refit status. Open CR, navigate to "Unit" tab and manually filter to examine only "Crps", "Army" and "ArmyGr" units (i.e. all HQs). CR will show all HQs with their refit status indicated in column "Rf/Rs". Click the hex coordinates in the location column to bring up the unit detail window for that HQ where you can toggle refit status to "on". Alternately, after filtering the unit tab as above, you could select the Soviet Front HQ that contains the Army HQ(s) you want to refit then click "Refit/Reserve" under "Functions" to set the refit status of the chosen HQ(s).

(in reply to JAMiAM)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/26/2011 6:09:02 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Red Baron


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

In the CR, HQs do not have a column entry display for whether they are in refit mode, or not, so I agree with johntoml56 that it is certainly not intuitive. Perhaps we can get the CR to display refit status in a future update?



CR can be used to check HQ refit status. Open CR, navigate to "Unit" tab and manually filter to examine only "Crps", "Army" and "ArmyGr" units (i.e. all HQs). CR will show all HQs with their refit status indicated in column "Rf/Rs". Click the hex coordinates in the location column to bring up the unit detail window for that HQ where you can toggle refit status to "on". Alternately, after filtering the unit tab as above, you could select the Soviet Front HQ that contains the Army HQ(s) you want to refit then click "Refit/Reserve" under "Functions" to set the refit status of the chosen HQ(s).

Thanks for the tip!

(in reply to The Red Baron)
Post #: 9
RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/26/2011 8:29:15 AM   
johntoml56

 

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Does it work?

All I see against the HQs is '-' under RF/Rs

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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/26/2011 12:31:44 PM   
The Red Baron


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A "-" means the HQ has not been set to Refit or Reserve status; it is in ready status. To see that it works, you could manually set the refit status for a particular HQ via the unit detail window then return to the CR to see the change. HQ would show "Rft" instead of the "-". A display of "Rft(w)" means the HQ has been set to Refit status and is also scheduled to withdraw within 3-5 turns.

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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/26/2011 7:31:10 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Red Baron

A "-" means the HQ has not been set to Refit or Reserve status; it is in ready status. To see that it works, you could manually set the refit status for a particular HQ via the unit detail window then return to the CR to see the change. HQ would show "Rft" instead of the "-". A display of "Rft(w)" means the HQ has been set to Refit status and is also scheduled to withdraw within 3-5 turns.

Not seeing it happen. Using the refit button only sets refit status for the HQ's subordinate units. How exactly do you set the refit status for a single HQ under STAVKA without setting all of STAVKA's myriad other units to refit, and then having to deselect all the stuff you don't want refitted?

(in reply to The Red Baron)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/26/2011 7:58:25 PM   
gingerbread


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Does the k-command have any effect (on an HQ, that is)? It does not make it say 'Rft' in the CR, but does it make it recieve more squads?

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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/26/2011 10:53:21 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

Excellent news; my Coastal Army went from 20% to 96% after just one turn on Refit; most of my Shock armies have done similar.




johntoml, I am experiencing the exact same problem as you with these HQs not gaining any TOE. Can you explain exactly what you did to set your Coastal and STAVKA armies to refit status? Red Baron posted an explanation but it isn't working for me. Did you do the same thing or something else?

(in reply to johntoml56)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 2:56:52 AM   
The Red Baron


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Guys, I misread the initial post. There is no function in the game to place a HQ unit in refit status. Why? For the purposes of replacements, the game treats all HQs and support units (SUs) as always in a refit status (see PDF manual section 18.3 pg 251). This is the reason that no function exists in the CR or in the unit detail window to toggle a HQ's refit state. Keep in mind that any combat units (CUs) which you have placed in a refit status will be competing with all the SOV HQs and SUs each turn for replacements; even the SOV Army may not have enough to go around. If you want to plus up a newly arrived SOV Army HQ, park it on a rail head and reduce the number of CUs which you have placed in a refit status for that turn. You should see a jump in the HQ's TOE % the following turn(s). Obviously, if you desperately need replacements for the CUs as well as the HQs, you will need to prioritize who gets what first by toggling the refit state of various CUs to give your HQs a chance to draw replacements before other units.

The manual makes no mention of how the game engine allocates replacements in the refit segment. Do HQs receive all replacements first followed by SUs then CUs, which the player has set to refit? Do these various units share replacements equally? Without knowing the mechanics, this seems to me to be the only way to get what you want.

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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 5:09:00 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Red Baron

Guys, I misread the initial post. There is no function in the game to place a HQ unit in refit status. Why? For the purposes of replacements, the game treats all HQs and support units (SUs) as always in a refit status (see PDF manual section 18.3 pg 251). This is the reason that no function exists in the CR or in the unit detail window to toggle a HQ's refit state. Keep in mind that any combat units (CUs) which you have placed in a refit status will be competing with all the SOV HQs and SUs each turn for replacements; even the SOV Army may not have enough to go around. If you want to plus up a newly arrived SOV Army HQ, park it on a rail head and reduce the number of CUs which you have placed in a refit status for that turn. You should see a jump in the HQ's TOE % the following turn(s). Obviously, if you desperately need replacements for the CUs as well as the HQs, you will need to prioritize who gets what first by toggling the refit state of various CUs to give your HQs a chance to draw replacements before other units.

The manual makes no mention of how the game engine allocates replacements in the refit segment. Do HQs receive all replacements first followed by SUs then CUs, which the player has set to refit? Do these various units share replacements equally? Without knowing the mechanics, this seems to me to be the only way to get what you want.


Thank you Red Baron for the rule clarification. The thing is I actually took all my Rusian units, except cavalry, off refit when mud hit in 1941. Yet by the time blizzard hit several turns later I didn't notice any noticeable improvement in my "unready" HQs TOE, even though most of them were on Railroads (edit: on closer inspection I see they did gain on average approximatley 1.3 TOE per turn). Admittedly prior to this I had many units on refit, not so much for the purpose of receiving replacements, but rather to get the morale boost being on refit gave units (Rule 9.1.1). With the change in this rule with 1.05 I probably won't have so many units on refit in the future; but I suspect it won't make any difference.

In any event, johntoml56 mentioned he did something and got an immediate boost to his HQ TOE and I am very curious to know what he did.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 10/27/2011 5:41:03 AM >

(in reply to The Red Baron)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 5:31:02 AM   
johntoml56

 

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I certainly did something and I noticed an immediate improvement; I dont think it is due to how many units are on Refit nor is it due to to how much support you have in the Active Pool, nor does it appear to have anything to do with the higher HQ to which they are attached to (provided it is not Stavka).

What I noticed was that these HQs when viewed unders Units Attached from heir higher HQ ie Front had the (u) against their name ie Status of Unready;which implied to me that they are not on Refit at all.

After discussions with Pavel I used the CR to place these HQs on Refit, even though the RFT does not appear against their name.

For 30 turns my Coastal army had been stuck on 20%; it immediately went to 96%, my Shock Armies went from 20% to the 80s except for the first that went from only 20% to 25%....it may be coincidental...

BTW I have seen HQs stuck on 20% in other games as well.

(in reply to Harrybanana)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 5:38:35 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

I suspect you are low on manpower probably due to many units set on refit. So far in all early game saves I see there is no particular problem with HQ refit.


Helpless, Just to be sure you understand the problem, are you saying that in other games you have seen newly created Russian Army HQs (which always seem to start attached to STAVKA with a TOE of about 20%) have their TOE grow to 50% or more within a few turns. Because I have to tell you that is not my experience. Several of these Armies are created on or about turn 4; but yet by my turn 17 most of them had gained 0 TOE and at best gained 2 TOE. On Turn 17 I took all my combat units (except cavalry) off refit and these HQs did gain about 10 to 12 TOE over the next 8 turns; but that is still pretty slow growth. Also since HQs are automatically always on refit (thanks Red Baron for pointing this out) shouldn't they gain something even if lots of other units are also on refit?




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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 6:59:07 AM   
johntoml56

 

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Another turn has gone by in my PBEM, 1st Shock has gone from 25% to 33%, which is progress, but the Game has started to convert Support into Inf again...150k manpower in the pool but all Transit...and this is where all those SAD airbases are disbanding....

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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 7:49:06 AM   
Helpless


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The root cause of the slow refit is low manpower. In such a case non-refit units have very low chances to fill their elements, since refitting units can drain pool to the bottom.

My proposed "workaround" is placing HQ's into refit mode, which is not quite "clean" solution, since there is no visible indication of such state. I think the reason is that it was assumed that hq's have automatic refit on, which is not currently reflected in the code.

From other hand, as said before, the situation when Soviet HQ's are low on support in 1941 would be very historical.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
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(in reply to johntoml56)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 9:38:41 AM   
johntoml56

 

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Don't have a problem with it being historic. And as there is a work around thats ok too. (I was worried that it was just another case of 1.05 being pro AXIS).

(in reply to Helpless)
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RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/27/2011 2:43:59 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

I suspect you are low on manpower probably due to many units set on refit. So far in all early game saves I see there is no particular problem with HQ refit.


Helpless, Just to be sure you understand the problem, are you saying that in other games you have seen newly created Russian Army HQs (which always seem to start attached to STAVKA with a TOE of about 20%) have their TOE grow to 50% or more within a few turns. Because I have to tell you that is not my experience. Several of these Armies are created on or about turn 4; but yet by my turn 17 most of them had gained 0 TOE and at best gained 2 TOE. On Turn 17 I took all my combat units (except cavalry) off refit and these HQs did gain about 10 to 12 TOE over the next 8 turns; but that is still pretty slow growth. Also since HQs are automatically always on refit (thanks Red Baron for pointing this out) shouldn't they gain something even if lots of other units are also on refit?


Well, I can't speak for Helpless but that is certainly what I am seeing. As long as my manpower remains above 100k, I see exactly that; one thing I have to do to keep manpower at that level, at least for a little while, is set everyone at 50% max TOE. Just one example, since I don't have enough rail to evacuate industry I tend to leave the new shell units where they are created until I can rail them up; in three turns they go from 0 CV to at least 1 CV and often 2 CV. It also took a lot more rail points to move them; next time I will delay industry evac a bit and put priority to moving shell units to the Moscow area while they are cheap to move.

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 22
RE: HQ TOE Stuck on 20% - 10/28/2011 9:35:31 AM   
johntoml56

 

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Lessons learn't. Well I have looked back through a few saved turns and even having 150k active manpower didnt raise HQ TOE. What did raise it was placing HQs on Refit via CR, and no they do not arrive with status Refit on.

(in reply to pompack)
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